For a great synopsis of the heretical teachings of Zane Hodges, go here:
http://www.middletownbiblechurch.org/doctrine/hodgeshp.htm
This site also includes the heretical teachings of Joseph Dillow, Robert Wilkin (Grace Evangelical Society) and J.D. Faust.
Teachings of Zane Hodges.
Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by akrahnert, Sep 25, 2006.
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I DO NOT put on airs!!!
Lacy -
Lacy -
If that was a joke, Lacy, you need more material.
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lacy:smilewinkgrin: -
then if you hold to and preach the same doctrine as Hodges, Dillow, Faust, and Wilkin.. and anyone else who holds to this false doctrine of Kingdom Exclusion are and is a heretic. -
LAcy -
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But just to give you the benefit of the doubt can you show me in the OT that ALL Christians will make up the bride of Christ, because if it's taught in the NT it will be found in some form or fashion in the OT.
I'll look forward to your response. -
The Old Testament did not testify of Christians. It testifies of Christ.
Christians cannot be found in the Old Testament.
Do you even know the Word of God in it's truth? -
Christians are in Christ. A part of His body. That's what you said. So how is it that the OT can speak of Christ, but it can't speak of Christians.
The OT speaks to the Person, Character and Work of Christ. And included in that is types, pictures, shadows of Christians.
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Lacy Evans
Your comments are juvenile. I will tell you so.
I am not being up tight, I am being serious about a very serious
subject. I made it clear that I wanted a serious discussion.
No drivel, no snide, glibe or filipant statements.
The first comment I get to start off this thread, and from one who seemingly agrees with Hodges' teachings, is a statement I would expect from a teenager,
not someone who is 42 years of age and a Sunday School Teacher.
If you are in agreement with Hodges, than state your reasons why.
Give your hypothesis as to why you think he is biblically correct and back it up with scripture to present a cogent argument in defense of Hodges' theology.
Your lead off comment had me a bit unerved because of the wording and tone, convincing me from that moment that you have put Hodges on a pedestle, and that he can not be refuted. Hope you are not following him blindly.
I expected more maturity. We may disagree, but let it be in all seriousness.
We are living in in uncertain times, and the falling away is already in progress
that our beloved Paul had warned us about, 2000 years ago.
I have been reading, yet not commenting on, other threads at this board, and it is appalling to see some of the vain, mean spirited, filipant comments that have been made by Christians (and Baptists!) on compelling subjects that need to be addressed. Addressed seriously because there are doctrines and beliefs even with
in our own Baptist groups that are leading so many astray.
It has made me rather apprehensive about posting comments, or even starting
a thread.
It is also not judgmental or unbiblical to call someone a heretic. We must, if someone is preaching unsound doctrine or another gospel, expose that person and their unbiblical teaching. How do you explain Christ's accusations against the Pharisees? He called them a brood of vipers and white washed tombs.
Paul has also called us to expose heresy. Are they to be labled unfair, unbiblical and unjust?
If we do not take a stand, then the sheep will suffer, as they are now to a great extent. We will reap what we have sown if we do not.
Lacy, if Zane Hodges is preaching another way of salvation, he is preaching another gospel, a false gospel. I believe from the evidence that he is.
By labeling Hodges a heretic, I am hoping he will see the error and repent by the mere fact that to be labled a heretic carries a powerful message of rebuke.
Rebuking is also biblical. It saves the the one in error, and prevents countless others from falling. That is the ultimate expression of Christian love, saving one out of error.
We should also pray for Zane Hodges, as we rebuke his teaching, for Christ also loves Zane Hodges. It should be done in love, but with firmness.
It is the biblical thing to do. -
I'm not familiar with Hodges' work, but I think it has been shown that what you are saying is suspect at best, so instead of presenting Scriptural evidence for what you are claiming, you trot out the "heretic" word, just as so many on this board do if you don't line up perfectly with their personal interpretation of Scripture. -
pinoybaptist Active MemberSite Supporter
They were not called Christians, to be sure, but they were typified as much as their Savior. -
pinoybaptist Active MemberSite Supporter
Okay, fellers, let's give the OP what he wants. A sane and intelligent discussion of the doctrines being promulgated by Zane Hodges, free of ad hominems and sarcastic asides either to the person in question, or to the person/s standing on the opposite podium.
Since his books are not online for anyone to browse and therefore comment on sanely, I have copied and pasted from one of the many websites on the internet opposed to his doctrines, as well as to a couple more gentlemen whom they describe as "brothers" who are walking worthy of the gospel albeit astray in some of their doctrines.
Here is the LINK to their website, titled "The Teachings of Zane Hodges, Joseph Dillow, Robert Wilkin (The Grace Evangelical Society) and J.D. Faust."
From their link, "The Gospel Under Siege", I take four for consideration. Let me post it separately for space. -
pinoybaptist Active MemberSite Supporter
Gospel Under Siege...cont'd
From this website:
Item No. 1 = I think we need to define what the "good works" are. Are the good works being charitable, religious, kind, considerate, and all those things that the world marks as standard behavior that separates good men from evil men ? If these are the good works meant, then I agree with Zane Hodges, because I have friends and acquaintances, and we all know people whom we would rather have as friends and guests in our dinner table over some people who call themselves "Christians" and sing in our churches, or shake our hands, and hug us. In other words, "worldly" good works is something not far from the capability of fallen, totally depraved man.
On the other hand, if by good works we mean a view of God which is filled with awe and wonder, respect and love, reverent fear and the consciousness of one's sinfulness vis-a-vis the absolute holiness of God, resulting in a relationship to fellow believers that reflects this view, then I disagree with Zane Hodges because only the quickened spirit is capable of these kinds of good works.
There are a lot more that can be said about this, but for now this is where I stop.
As to Item Number 2 = I will have to absolutely disagree with Zane Hodges and company. If one who is a child of God is brought by God into the company of His saints here on earth, professes to be a child of God, joins the local congregation, receives gospel instruction, and turn away and abandon his brethren to the point of openly denouncing the Savior he once professed to know and to have known him, then I point to this scriputre:
"They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us. "
1 John 2:19.
Note that I am referring to going out of (1) the local church to which he belonged, and further (2) going out of Christendom in general.
This is far different from leaving, say, the so-so Baptist church to join the so-so Bible church (which is not Baptist) or the so-so full gospel church because of offenses in the former church/es. This one is an immature child of God, but a child of God nevertheless, assuming, of course, that his name is indeed known of God.
On the other hand, if he leaves so-so church and goes and becomes a Muslim, or goes and joins himself with Wicca, uhhhhmmmmm.....any oppositions ?
Item Number 3 - On the surface, I will have to disagree with Hodges here, but only because I myself hold the position that God is able to quicken and bring to repentance those whom He loves even at the last nanosecond of life. Eventually, we need to come to terms with the fact that while the Bible exhorts us to live a life worthy of the Name by which we are called, living that life does not result in salvation, but rather a manifestation of that grace that is in us.
Therefore, if someone who habitually lives in sin but never professed to know Christ, or never joined a church, or never referred to himself as a believer, and never received gospel instruction, dies, as far as my eyes can see, and as far as my limited perception goes, he died hell-bound, but, eventually and ultimately, it is God who knows.
However, if he received gospel instruction as a member of a gospel church, called himself Christian, professed to know Christ, and YET continually lived in sin, even practiced homosexuality, I will have my doubts about him, from the very beginning.
Item number 4 - The problem with this is that when the critic begins a sentence with, "in other words.....", then he is injecting his interpretation of what the other person is saying, which may very well not be what the other person is saying.
I agree with Hodges that it is possible that there will be no evidence (to us and our eyes) of this eternal life the child of God possesses, and that the grace of God is able (to me, it is the grace of God saved, not just "is able") to save a person, and not transform that person IF he receives no gospel instruction at all. In Romans, Paul laments the fact that those among Jewry who are of the true Israel (therefore the true children of promise) are still untransformed (unconverted, if you will) and caught up in the religion of Judaism, observing laws and rituals, having a zeal of God but not according to knowledge.
These were all children of God, the true Israel within Israel, but going about their ways establishing their own righteousnesses because they have no one preaching the gospel to them.
Okay, fire the ack-ack guns, boys. -
It was meant to be juvenile. It was pure 100% sarcasm. The tone of your OP set me off a bit. It seemed like you were putting on airs, and indirectly saying before you even get started that us "idiots" are not welcome here. This was just to be for you really really intelligent folks.
I am sorry for judging your heart. But, right or wrong, that was my first impression.
Lacy -
Ed -
But speaking of more material, "now thet ya' menshuned it," how about your own usual sign-off "trail line" of
And since I don't have the wherewithall, imagination or talent to come up with any original poignant and/or witty sayings, maybe that is why I usually just sign off as -
Ed
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