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Testing the "Seven Times Purified Theory"

Discussion in 'Bible Versions & Translations' started by John of Japan, Aug 3, 2022.

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  1. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    Good post.

    The further I get into this book (Our Blessed Book, by Caleb Garraway), the more clear it is that he is basing every observation on the KJV and not on the original Hebrew and Greek. And he quotes Sam Gipp several times very favorably, and we know Sam is a product of Ruckman's school.
     
  2. robycop3

    robycop3 Well-Known Member
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    Most KJVOs are so intent to support the false KJVO myth that they deliberately overlook FACTS.
     
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  3. JD731

    JD731 Well-Known Member

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    Context! When these prophesies come to pass and this blowhard man of sin is encamped outside the city of Jerusalem with his destroying armies, and as Jesus said in Matt 24, Except those days should be shortened no flesh would be saved (delivered), this psalm may just be the one the remnant of Israel is singing, "Help LORD, the godly man ceaseth," just before the Lord breaks through the Eastern sky. Until then, it is just a matter for Jews to ignore and gentiles to argue about. The remnant will certainly want those words to be pure and true then.

    The Psalms really are the songbook of Israel, full of hope and optimism but they do not understand them now. Sure they apply to gentiles and are a very great comfort for the church of Jesus Christ, but only in a spiritual sense. When one reads the following description of the word of God;

    "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for
    1) doctrine,
    2) for reproof,
    3) for correction,
    4) for instruction in righteousness:
    17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works," 2 Tim 3:16, but not necessarily all 4 at the same time,

    and so one must be aware of which of these 4 categories applies to oneself and not over step the application. I see Psalms 12 as being #4 in the list concerning me and the doctrine I learn is that the LORD and godly men thinks his words are pure wherever one finds them, whether written or spoken or both.

    I have come to understand that Psa 12 has nothing to do with the KJV bible or any other bible. It does have something to do with the promises God makes even if they take several generations to come to pass.
     
  4. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    So, do you believe the KJV is a perfect translation? If so, how do you get to the English language from Scriptures on preservation? If not, fine.

    That is the whole point of this thread. If I say the Scripture is preserved in Japanese rather than English, who can prove me wrong?
     
  5. JD731

    JD731 Well-Known Member

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    The only way for the man who possesses the Spirit of God to search out the mind of God and to come to understand the deep things of God is to compare scripture with scripture. Scripture is a compilation of written words and God has written his words in such a way as they contain prophetic truths. We have been speaking of Psalm 12:7 and I have suggested that God is not addressing the subject of scripture preservation in Psalm 12 except in the context of his prophetic answer to Israel's prayer for help against a man who is puffing at them and when they are ready to perish as a people at his hand. I have shown that it is a theme in the psalms and it is made evident by the recurring word "arise." This is the prayer of Israel and twice the LORD assures them that he will "arise" and answer their request and deliver them. Words establishes the themes and the prophetic strains of scriptures. For instance, God has delivered Israel during the history of the OT and has done so in answer to their prayer. Consider his delivering Hezekiah from the Assyrian army in 2 Chron 32 when he prayed as an example, but he did not arise to do it. When you see this word 'arise' in the context of prophesy then you can be sure you are projected to the second coming of Christ and his revelation when every eye shall see him. The same is true of many words and phrases. It is a very important means to sound doctrine. This is the reason I am KJV only. I am taught by God that individual words are important and necessary to see the structure of the scriptures and his work of redemption in the world.

    But, I may be deliberately wrong as you charge. Does your bible that you like cross reference and reveal those themes?
     
  6. Logos1560

    Logos1560 Well-Known Member
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    It is a fact that the KJV does not provide any English rendering for some, even many individual original-language words of Scripture.

    Are those individual original-language words given by inspiration of God to the prophets and apostles unimportant and unnecessary?
     
  7. JD731

    JD731 Well-Known Member

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    Original languages do not help me L1560 and I don't quite understand why you are so worked up by what others believe that you obsess about it. I have my reasons for being KJV only and I have been dealing with one of them. My reasons makes me different that you folks. I believe the doctrines of God are hidden in his words. You folks do not believe that and therefore you search for truth by comparing translations and not words.
     
  8. Logos1560

    Logos1560 Well-Known Member
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    You are wrong about what you claim that we believe.

    We believe what the Scriptures state and teach. We emphasize the actual words given by inspiration of God to the prophets and apostls. We do not search for truth by comparing Bible translations to each other. No one Bible translation including the KJV is the standard for Bible truth. The word of God is not bound to the textual criticism decisions, Bible revision decisions, and translation decisions of one exclusive group of Church of England priests/critics in 1611 or in any other year.

    The actual exact specific words given by inspiration of God to the prophets and apostles and preserved by God remain the proper standard and authority for the making and trying of all Bible translations.
     
  9. Logos1560

    Logos1560 Well-Known Member
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    The KJV itself translated the same Hebrew word three different ways: “dromedaries” (1 Kings 4:28), “mules” (Esther 8:10, 14), and “swift beast” (Micah 1:13). Are all these three renderings equivalent or synonyms? Do these three different renderings all say or mean the same thing in the KJV? Should a Bible translation give the same name for this animal in all three places (1 Kings 4:28, Esther 3:10, Micah 1:13)? Which of these three different renderings if the correct, purified one?

    About a different example, KJV-only author Jack McElroy asserted: “The Lord must pick the one Bible that names the correct animal. Any Bible that doesn’t name the right animal is absolutely wrong. Only one can be correct” (Which Bible, p. 21). Jack McElroy failed to apply his own stated measure to the KJV.
     
  10. JD731

    JD731 Well-Known Member

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    The answer to the first question is Yes. The second question is an excellent question in my view.

    The KJV is a "pivot point" in God's revelation of himself. His revelation is progressive and dead sure that you and I have access to much more information about God today than any of the OT saints and the early church, even the apostles with the exception of Paul. He said in 1 Cor 13 that he understood all mysteries, and he explained them to us so we can know them too if we will believe what he wrote. What he wrote is written to us gentiles.

    There are other pivot points in history that are notable. One such example is arguably the most important chapter in the OT, Gen 15. This chapter is given by God in the very beginning of the third millennium of history and it is neither the end of a dispensation or the beginning of a new one. However what is recorded there advances our understanding like nothing else does. According to Romans 4 it is the time that Abraham was justified by faith and we understand here and in Galatians that he became the father of faith and the father of many nations here and at this time. Several things happened in that chapter. The appearance of the pre-incarnate Jesus to Abraham took place there and two things were revealed to us for the first time in history through this encounter. The name of our Lord in the OT and his title. His name is Adonay Jehovah (Lord GOD) and his title is "the word of the LORD." Neither the name or the title had been revealed before this. Much of the prophetic word given to the prophets of Israel was by the word of the LORD. He is a person and many times he came visibly to men by the word of the LORD. He came to Jonah that way in Jonah chapter 1 and we find out that Jonah ran from the presence of the LORD. If my memory serves me right, it was the word of the LORD who came to Ezekiel 210 times in his prophesy. He is in the psalms under this title many times. He is the one who gave the prophsy to Nahum concerning Nineveh.

    Here is an example of his appearing to a prophet, the first prophet of Israel and it is instructive.

    1 Sam 3:1 And the child Samuel ministered unto the Lord before Eli. And the word of the Lord was precious in those days; there was no open vision.
    2 And it came to pass at that time, when Eli was laid down in his place, and his eyes began to wax dim, that he could not see;
    3 And ere the lamp of God went out in the temple of the Lord, where the ark of God was, and Samuel was laid down to sleep;
    4 That the Lord called Samuel: and he answered, Here am I.
    5 And he ran unto Eli, and said, Here am I; for thou calledst me. And he said, I called not; lie down again. And he went and lay down.
    6 And the Lord called yet again, Samuel. And Samuel arose and went to Eli, and said, Here am I; for thou didst call me. And he answered, I called not, my son; lie down again.

    7 Now Samuel did not yet know the Lord, neither was the word of the Lord yet revealed unto him.

    8 And the Lord called Samuel again the third time. And he arose and went to Eli, and said, Here am I; for thou didst call me. And Eli perceived that the Lord had called the child.
    9 Therefore Eli said unto Samuel, Go, lie down: and it shall be, if he call thee, that thou shalt say, Speak, Lord; for thy servant heareth. So Samuel went and lay down in his place.

    10 And the Lord came, and stood, and called as at other times, Samuel, Samuel. Then Samuel answered, Speak; for thy servant heareth.

    The word of the LORD is a person in both testaments and he is Jehovah.

    The end of Matt 12 and the beginning of Matt 13 is a pivot point of great significance because it marks the end of the opportunity for that generation of Jews to realize the kingdom of God that our Lord Jesus was there to establish through them. Rather, they committed the unpardonable sin and that generation was cursed. This led way to the mystery form of the kingdom that is described in Matt 13 and has been present for two thousand years now.

    Now, God is seeing a corrupted church in Europe. He is ready now to establish a free nation, separated from the corrupt religion that has been established, and he has prepared an English bible, the KJV. It is a major pivot point. He will send missionaries from great local churches of that nation to all the world. It did not happen in Europe and Asia. You, J of J are one of those missionaries. You went to Japan. The Japanese did not come to you, and I wonder how many Englishmen you have bumped into in Japan. If the KJV had stayed in England it would have been like the other bibles they translated. No one would be reading them.Speaking of Japan, here it is 2000 years since the resurrection of Jesus Christ and the Japanese are just now getting a worthwhile bible, right?m It is like God asks, who can I send and who will go for me? The Americans with a KJV says. Here are we, send us because we have a testimony of salvation and we have a bible we can believe.

    I remind you also that God did not write a single word to anyone until the world was over 2500 years old but that did not mean he did not have a witness. Psalm 19: 1-7 tells us about him. The gospel of Jesus Christ does not require a bible but it does require a preacher. There has always been preachers and all preachers preach the gospel in their own words. To know the depths of the mind of God his words are required.

    The gentiles did not get a a word written directly to them in the scriptures until Romans 1. That is four thousand years. Then when he began to write to us his first sentence was 7 verses long. It told about the gospel of God, the theme of this whole age from that point on. Paul called it "my gospel" because he was charged with making it known. Here it is defined in a nutshell passage.

    Rom 16:24 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.
    25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
    26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:
    27 To God only wise, be glory through Jesus Christ for ever. Amen.

    The Japanese have not taken the gospel of God to the nations. The Jews with their Greek and Hebrew OT have not taken the gospel of God to the nations The Catholics and Reformed of Europe have not taken the gospel of God to the nations. It has been the Americans with a KJV bible who have taken the gospel of God to the nations because the KJV bible is believable and life changing. The new bible crowd do not believe their bibles are true and they say so constantly. Their lives and life styles prove it as well.

    So, the short answer to the third question is easy. because if Japan just now in this century getting a bible, it is obvious the bible was not preserved in the Japanese language. This does not take much reasoning to figure out.
     
  11. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    Again, you give no Scripture for why the English language. That's what I ask for, not human reasoning, which is what you gave--not even theology, really. (See my previous thread on a theology of preservation.)

    Actually, there have been many Japanese missionaries go out. I've been to preach for one of them in Bangladesh.

    Please read the OP. The Japanese have had a Bible for 150 years. The various translations (except for the Nagai NT, and the OT Masoretic in all of the Bibles) have not been from the received texts, but that does not mean they have not have a Bible. It is not so easy to damage the Bible as KJVO people think. Simply because a Bible was not translated from the received texts does not mean it is not a Bible.

    But again, my OP was somewhat tongue in cheek. My point is, you say the English Bible is God's preserved Word, and I say (tongue in cheek) that it is the Japanese Bible. You cannot Scripturally prove me wrong. As with other KJVO people, you gave no Scripture to get the Bible into English as the only preserved Word. You simply gave your opinion.

    Do we believe the Bible? Okay, let's act like it. Baptists believe in the Bible as the "Sole rule of faith and practice." Do you add to that your opinion and reasoning and historical accounts as a rule of faith and practice? I hope not.
     
  12. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    To me.
    A long meaningless rant.
     
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  13. JD731

    JD731 Well-Known Member

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    The bible is about God. God reveals himself in words. It is important to us that he does. Why? Because he says in Isa 55 that his ways are nor our ways and his thoughts are not our thoughts.I will not quote the rest of it but you know it. Now you will have me to believe that he gave us his interaction with men for a period of 4000 years, writing a record of it, and in the process revealing his ways to us, and I cannot draw conclusions about him from that record.

    When God led the children of Israel in the wilderness, he said "they have not know my ways." He said this as if they should have known and because of it, acted differently. God has established a testimony of himself by his actions in history with men. He has left us a record. He did not charge them with not knowing his word.

    I say that the modern day philosophy of continually translating the Greek and Hebrew scriptures into the same language over and over and over is not a way one learns about God in his record.

    Does your Japanese translation match those 13 verses from the psalm as a prayer that is answered by the LORD arising from his place where he is seated at the right hand of the Father awaiting the Father timing of making his enemies his footstool?

    And, concerning your point that Japan has had a bible for 150 years, I will remind you that the church and the new covenant have been here for 2000 years. And if they have a bible, why do they need another one?

    One of the ways of God is that he sends his words to those who will receive it.

    Acts 28:26 Saying, Go unto this people, and say, Hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and not perceive:
    27 For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
    28 Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.

    This new bible philosophy among the English speakers has become a doctrine of corrupt Christianity and Satan has been at work in the last 150 years or so to corrupt the bible. Who is surprised? Paul writes about the doctrines of devils that will be prevalent in the last days of the church.
    Yes, I believe the bible. I also believe the Spirit, who is our resident teacher, guides us into all truth by the word. The scriptures are written so that unsaved men cannot grasp its deep truths. We reside in the mystery form of the kingdom of God. I did not make that up. I read of these mysteries in my New Testament. They are revealed though words or they are not revealed at all. That does not mean that unsaved men and women do not have anything to say about the scriptures but what they do say is from their own reasoning and not from the leading of the Spirit. The Spirit of God has not lead this philosophy of a continual translation of the Hebrew and Greek language into English like we see today. It has not promoted unity from a God that has told us to "all speak the same thing," and it has not produced holiness, but the opposite.

    As for my reason and opinion, I have given you reasons why I believe in one bible from God. I can not perceive how Christianity can work any other way.
     
  14. JD731

    JD731 Well-Known Member

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    I would expect a comment like that from you.
     
  15. Logos1560

    Logos1560 Well-Known Member
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    A consistent application of your question would condemn the KJV. The word of God had been translated into English many years before 1611 so why did English-speaking believers need another one in 1611? The 1560 Geneva Bible was the widely accepted, believed, and loved English Bible for fifty years before a new English translation was made in 1611.

    You have not demonstrated that the Scriptures teach your opinions concerning the KJV.

    You choose to believe your human assertions concerning the KJV that are not true and that are not stated in the Scriptures.
     
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  16. JD731

    JD731 Well-Known Member

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    We are getting away from Ps 12 and doing what you like to do best, argue. Below I quote from the GNV.

    Psalm 12

    1599 Geneva Bible


    12 1 The Prophet lamenting the miserable estate of the people, and the decay of all good order, desireth God speedily to send succor to his children. 7 Then comforting himself, and others with the assurance of God’s help, he commendeth the constant verity that God observeth in keeping his promises.

    To him that excelleth upon the eight tune. A Psalm of David.
    1 Help Lord, for there is not a]">[a]a godly man left: for the faithful are failed from among the children of men.

    2 They speak deceitfully every one with his neighbor, b]">[b]flattering with their lips, and speak with a double heart.

    3 The Lord cut off all flattering lips, and the tongue that speaketh proud things:

    4 Which have said, c]">[c]With our tongue will we prevail; our lips are our own; who is Lord over us?

    5 d]">[d]Now for the oppression of the needy, and for the sighs of the poor, I will up, saith the Lord, and will e]">[e]set at liberty him, whom the wicked hath [snared].

    6 The words of the Lord are pure words, as the silver, tried in a furnace of earth, fined sevenfold.

    7 Thou wilt keep f]">[f]them, O Lord; thou wilt preserve him from this generation forever.

    8 The wicked walk on every side; when they are exalted, g]">[g]it is a shame for the sons of men.

    Footnotes
    1. Psalm 12:1 Which dare defend the truth and show mercy to the oppressed.
    2. Psalm 12:2 He meaneth the flatterers of the court which hurt him more with their tongues, than with their weapons.
    3. Psalm 12:4 They think themselves able to persuade whatsoever they take in hand.
    4. Psalm 12:5 The Lord is moved with the complaints of his, and delivereth in the end from all dangers.
    5. Psalm 12:5 Because the Lord’s word and promise is true and unchangeable, he will perform it and preserve the poor from this wicked generation.
    6. Psalm 12:7 That is, thine though he were but one man.
    7. Psalm 12:8 For they suppress the godly and maintain the wicked.
    The word arise does not appear in Psa 12, which is a key word for our understanding the application of this psalm. This is a problem because it breaks the chain of references that eventually lead to the answered to this prayer by the LORD when he arises to deliver his people Israel. The word arise appears in Geneva a total of 13 times and in the KJV 17 times, 13 in the same context as Psa 12. The word arise does not cross reference with Psa 12 in the Geneva bible.

    Remember, David is a prophet. What is the message here and what is the time frame if the Geneva is your bible?
     
  17. Logos1560

    Logos1560 Well-Known Member
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    JD731, your chains of references may depend upon the human translation decisions of doctrinally-unsound Church of England priests in 1611 instead of on the preserved original-language words of Scripture. The original-language words interpreted in their context should determine which words properly cross-reference concerning the same matters.

    You have not demonstrated that you are a perfect, infallible interpreter whose opinions should be blindly trusted. Your KJV-only bias may blind you or keep you from accepting the truth.

    By the way, there are some differences between the 1560 Geneva Bible and the 1599 Geneva Bible that has the 1576 Tomson's New Testament translated from the Latin NT by Beza.
     
  18. JD731

    JD731 Well-Known Member

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    Okay, David said in the Geneva: "I will up." I was interested to know how many times this phrase is used in the Geneva. I found this through cross referencing.

    2 Samuel 17:1
    7 Ahithophel’s counsel is overthrown by Hushai.  14 The Lord had so ordained. 19 The Priest’s sons are hidden in the well. 22 David goeth over Jordan. 23 Ahithophel hangeth himself. 27 They bring victuals to David. Moreover, Ahithophel said to Absalom, Let me choose out now twelve thousand men, and I will up and follow after David this night,

    This is the only other time. It is obvious that this theme will not be picked up by the users of the Geneva bible.
     
  19. JD731

    JD731 Well-Known Member

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    One thing is for sure. No themes can be proven in the scriptures by comparing translations and you have demonstrated with your post by your comments that we have no real authority to test our doctrines UNLESS we know Hebrew and Greek and Aramaic thoroughly. Our command to study to show ourselves approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, is out the window because there is no way to prove things. It can only lead to disagreement. The funny thing is, probably no one has checked the Hebrew to see if the theme is present there. Surely no one has checked their English translations. They just disagree. They argue.
     
  20. JD731

    JD731 Well-Known Member

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    God has built in ways to verify ones doctrines from the scriptures. Typology is one way, recurrences is another, certainly God's number system is another and is a big deal.
     
    #60 JD731, Aug 12, 2022
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2022
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