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Featured The Absolute Decree of Reprobation Expounded

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by Protestant, May 21, 2016.

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  1. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
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    I didn't say there wasn't a hell.

    I said God is a universalist, its your rebellion that's in opposition.


    1 Timothy 2
    3This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

    1 timothy 4
    10For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers.


    I can say amen to the above verses. You never take a verse for the face value of what it says. Instead your going to have to twist scripture to different meaning.

    Bible believing Christians accept exactly what is said.



    Ephesians 4
    6one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all.


    If you ever want to give us a good laugh tell us you believe what the bible says exactly.

    You need to learn to stand up for what is right with actual trust in God he's better then you rather then assuming twice as evil.

    A coward doesn't know how to stand up for what is right. He only understands fear. Devotion to a Hitler-God is pathetic.

    Calvinist are surprised and shocked that God would even save a portion of people.

    The underlying insult is a person is surprised and shocked God is half a grouch when a complete one is expected.

    God is GOOD. Completely good.

    I promise when you meet him it will be to your massive relief he isn't anything like you accuse him to be.
     
  2. Protestant

    Protestant Well-Known Member

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    Further Observations on Reprobation

    Part 3

    God’s purposes are eternal, infallible and immutable.

    They will come to pass.

    God is not like a man who throws out a ‘trial balloon’ to see how things go before he sets things officially in motion.

    He knows exactly what, where, when, how and why certain specifics are needed to make the end of a thing infallibly to come to pass.

    ( N.B. Adam’s trial was not for the edification of God. Rather, it was for the edification of Adam, Eve and all mankind. Lesson to be learned: Man needs more than commandments as motivation to render obedience. Man needs the effectual grace to actually comply.)

    Only the true God is capable of executing His eternal will precisely as purposed, though it may be several thousands of years before its final and ultimate accomplishment.

    ‘Failure’ is not in God’s vocabulary, nor is it an attribute which can be assigned Him without blaspheming and excoriating His glorious perfections.

    Our Pelagian/Arminian/non-Cal friends refuse to acknowledge the fact that by preaching a God who sends His Son for the alleged express purpose of saving every human being ever born through an alleged universal atonement, they preach a Savior whose perfections and shed blood are insufficient to achieve God’s purpose.

    Furthermore, they preach a God whose eternal plan is doomed to failure because He evidently did not take into account all the means necessary to achieve the end, which is salvation.

    For many lack the necessary faith and repentance conducive to salvation.

    The beginning of the means to the end which is salvation is faith in the perfect work and person of Christ Jesus.

    And that saving faith comes by hearing the Word of God.

    And yet the Word of God was purposefully not preached to the OT Gentiles, which guaranteed their damnation (Acts 14:16).

    Today the Word of God is preached to all, yet rejected by most.

    Though Scripture is abundantly clear and explicit that God will infallibly achieve all His purposes (Isaiah 46:10; Psalm 33:11; Daniel 4:35; Proverbs 21:30; Ephesians 1:11), our adversaries would preach a God and Savior who falls disastrously short of achieving the very pinnacle of His purpose in creation: the salvation of mankind procured by His Son Jesus Christ.

    But rather than ignore the extremely disturbing fact that many professing Christians would preach such a false view of the true God, thereby allowing this false teaching to proliferate without counter arguments, the Holy Spirit, through the Apostle Paul, dispels such abhorrent teachings in Romans 9.

    Any honest Christian will admit the fact of Israel’s rejection of Christ to be quite alarming on several levels.

    First, it speaks to the willful blindness and depravity of men evidenced in the killing of the promised Messiah.

    Secondly, and more importantly, it speaks to the apparent failure of God to save His chosen people.

    Paul readily acknowledges, Israel, and Israel alone, was privileged to having been given the revelation, care and love of the true God.

    Yet they killed Christ, both the true Son of God and true Son of man.

    Paul is not willing to allow such a seeming paradox to remain unexplained:

    Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel (verse 6).

    Paul refutes the notion that God has failed in His purpose to save all Israelites.

    It was never God’s purpose to save all Israelites.

    Rather, Paul makes the distinction between Israel of the flesh and Israel of the promise.

    The true children of God are those whom God chooses.

    It is those and only those whom God purposed to save.

    His choice is not based on their birth status.

    Though Ishmael was equally the son of Abraham according to the flesh, it would be Isaac to whom was given the promise of eternal life as a chosen child of God (verses 7-9).

    Furthermore, Paul eliminates any controversy over possible favoritism or other cause for choosing one over the other.

    For some, desperately seeking a reason for God’s choice, may be inclined to think that since Ishmael and Isaac had two different mothers, God possibly favored Sara because of positive feelings He may have had for her, thus causing Him to choose her son, Isaac, over Ishmael.

    Thus, Sara was probably the cause of His choice.

    Or some others may reason that possibly God’s rejection of Ishmael was attributed to his unholy behavior which God observed as he was growing up, long before the birth of Isaac.

    Thus, Ishmael’s evil works were probably the cause of God’s choosing Isaac over Ishmael.

    But Paul puts to rest these two humanist, rational explanations by examining the case of the next Patriarch, Jacob.

    Jacob and Isaac were born of the same mother, Rebecca, and the same father, Isaac.

    The distinction of two mothers was eliminated.

    And since the boys were born at the same time, it was not possible Esau’s bad behavior was exhibited for years before the birth of Jacob, thereby potentially influencing God’s decision to choose Jacob over Esau.

    Paul explains how God made His choice of Jacob:

    For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth (verse 11).

    Though both boys were made of the same sinful lump, from the same sinful mother and father, Jacob was chosen for salvation according to God’s eternal electing purpose.

    The purpose of election is to infallibly secure the end, which is salvation.

    The means to infallibly achieve that end is included in the decree of election.

    God predestines the means to the end.

    The cause of election has nothing to do with foreseen faith or good works.

    Rather, its cause is in the ineffable, impenetrable mind and will of God’s good pleasure.

    His will has no cause outside Himself.

    Both His will and Being are eternal.

    That which is eternal has no cause.

    The love of God for Jacob is eternal.

    The love of God for all His Elect is eternal.

    God’s love is eternal.

    The LORD hath appeared of old unto me, saying, Yea, I have loved thee with an everlasting love: therefore with lovingkindness have I drawn thee (Jeremiah 31:3).

    God’s love is not due to foreseen faith or love on our part.

    Rather, we love because He first loved us (1 John 4:19).

    His love for us caused Him to will our salvation.

    in love having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will (Ephesians 1:4-5)

    To that end He sent Christ to save His people (His Elect, the children of promise) from their sins. (Matthew 1:21).

    Christ has saved and will continue to save all those chosen and given Him by the Father (John 17).

    The necessary means to that end are freely given the Elect, according to His perfect time and place, in order to infallibly achieve their salvation.

    And that purpose to save certain, specific individuals was eternal, as was the purpose to give them the necessary saving graces in Christ Jesus before the world began (2 Timothy 1:9; Phil. 1:29; Acts 13:48).

    Conclusion

    It was never the eternal purpose of God to save all people ever born.

    Had it been His eternal purpose, all would be saved because God cannot fail in executing His purposes.

    God has never and will never fail to secure the salvation of His people, the true Israel of God, consisting of Elect Jews and Gentiles.

    Reprobation is the eternal purpose of God to reject, hate and eternally punish certain specific men for their sins.

    The Reprobate, who sinned in Adam as did the Elect, God determined to pass by and reject before they were born, before they had personally done evil.

    Their destiny, the Lake of Fire, was determined by God from eternity.

    They will be eternally punished for their willful sins, whether in word, thought or deed.

    All men have predetermined ends.

    Some are destined to eternal joy.

    Most are destined to eternal misery.

    Double predestination proves both the goodness and severity of God (Romans 11:22).

    To be continued………..
     
  3. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
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    1 timothy 2

    3This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

    I can find plenty of verses like the one above. There isn't a single one that declares God wants people damned.



    You also have to contend that its by disobedience to a command, A COMMAND THAT GOD WANTS FOLLOWED, that sin is sin.

    If God did not want a command followed then your "reprobates" are sinless.

    Its by the command one is elected to follow it. If God didn't want it, simply he wouldn't command it.

    If God wanted Joe to burn in hell.......Joe is going to burn in hell, God doesn't have to play any game of justification or legalism. But if he commands Joe not to sin, Then God doesn't want him to sin, hence he commands it.


    God wants everyone to NOT SIN. How do we know? HE commands it. Its even LAW.


    What is a appealing to Calvinism is with Calvinism we can shift the blame solely on God and accuse him as the author of evil.

    Make a case that when GOD COMMANDS something it means he doesn't want it done.

    It will take that type of absurd reasoning for Calvinism to work. Of course absurd reasoning shouldn't be too hard for someone who believes they are totally depraved, since intelligence is a good thing.
     
  4. Protestant

    Protestant Well-Known Member

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    Further Observations on Reprobation

    Part 4

    The Holy Spirit has given us three prime examples of specific men who were born for the express purpose of performing evil deeds against the Lord, thereby becoming fit vessels whose infallible end was that of destruction.

    But first, it must be noted no matter the preponderance of the biblical evidence ‘there are none so blind as those who will not see.’

    Among the many theological blunders of John R. Rice’s errant teachings is a publication entitled, “Predestination for Hell? No!”

    [​IMG]

    Extract: from John Rice’s book, “Predestined for Hell”

    Does God really predestinate some people to be saved and predestinate others to go to Hell, so that they have no free choice?

    ABSOLUTELY NOT!

    Nobody is predestined to be saved, except as he chooses, of his own free will, to repent of sin and trust Christ for salvation.

    No one is predestined ahead of time to go to Hell. Christ died for the sins of the whole world. God is not willing that any should perish. Salvation is freely offered to “whosoever will.”

    After showing what Calvinism is and that it is a manmade philosophy, we plan to show by the Bible the following blessed facts:

    Hyper Calvinism Is a Man Made Philosophy Not in the Scriptures;

    • God Makes Plans Ahead in History for Man and Nations;

    • Christ’s Atoning Death Paid for the Sins of Every Person Ever Born;

    • God’s Love, Enlightenment, Enabling and Invitation Reach Every Sinner;

    • Not a Single Soul Is Predestined Without an Opportunity to Be Saved;

    • God’s Grace Not Irresistible;

    • Bible Doctrines Show Hyper Calvinism Morally Impossible;

    • God Predestinates Those Who Will Trust in Christ to Land Safe at Last in Heaven!

    • The Harm Done by Hyper Calvinism Heresy;

    John Calvin, a great theologian, was right in saying that people are saved by grace alone and kept by grace alone. But extreme Calvinism, the teaching that some people, by the foreordained plan of God, are predestined to be saved and some are predestined to be lost, and that their destinies were settled before they were born, is a wicked heresy contrary to the Bible, that dishonors God and has done incalculable harm

    --------------------------------------------END OF EXTRACT

    Contrary to the claims of Rice, this entire series on Reprobation is a scriptural refutation of Rice’s teaching and theology.

    I will now refute his assertion that it is a wicked heresy to teach “that some people, by the foreordained plan of God, are predestined to be saved and some are predestined to be lost, and that their destinies were settled before they were born.”

    Example # 1: Pharaoh

    For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth (Romans 9:17; cf. Exodus 9:16).

    To what purpose was Pharaoh born? The Lord tells us in no uncertain terms. It was to reveal to the world the terrible judgment of God awaiting those who freely, willfully, disobey His commandments.

    The historical biblical record of the horrific plagues culminating in the drowning of Pharaoh and his armies is known worldwide, even today.

    Pharaoh was born at the God-ordained precise time and to the God-ordained precise family in order that he may, at the precise time and place, be utterly destroyed.

    Please note Pharaoh’s disobedience was not coerced or forced by God.

    It was entirely self-induced, according to his evil nature, which was intent on being as god; his will attempting the impossible: overruling the will of the true God.

    By hardening Pharaoh, God was simply strengthening Pharaoh’s already wicked determination to continue hating and rebelling against obvious truth.

    The truth that he is no god.

    The truth that the God of Israel is God and there is no other.

    These things God purposed by immutable decree from eternity; before Pharaoh was born.

    Example # 2: Judas Iscariot

    Yea, mine own familiar friend, in whom I trusted, which did eat of my bread, hath lifted up his heel against me (Psalm 41:9).

    While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled (John 17:12).

    For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him (John 6:64b).

    Here we have certain proof that the Lord predestined the birth, life, ministry, betrayal, and destruction of Judas Iscariot.

    His betrayal is predicted in Psalm 41:9, which is nothing less than the prophetic revelation of the eternal decree of God concerning Judas 1,000 years before he was born.

    The ministry and ultimate destruction of Judas is seen as fulfillment of the eternal decree of God, as admitted by Jesus, John 17:12.

    According to John 6:64, Jesus always knew who the betrayer was, and yet did nothing to stop the betrayal.

    Why? Because Judas was the one God ordained to deliver Jesus to the Jews for crucifixion.

    This ordination was absolute, immutable and eternal, as to its precise design and execution.

    Even the money paid for the betrayal is predicted (Zechariah 11:12-13).

    Rice insists it is a wicked heresy to preach the destiny of the lost could be settled before they were born.

    And yet Jesus declares: The Son of Man goes as it is written of him, but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been better for that man if he had not been born (Matthew 26:24).

    Jesus admits it is a horrific destiny which God has predestined for Judas.

    Had Judas not been born, he would not have had to endure such an unhappy end.

    Thus, it would have been better, from Judas’ point of view, not to have been born in the first place.

    However, as horrific as his judgment will be, in God’s view the birth and life of Judas was according to the purpose of His perfect will to achieve the ends to which Judas was created and for which he was destined to be destroyed.

    Truth be told, it would be better if no reprobate were born, since their eternal end is destruction.

    But alas, each and every reprobate was purposed, from eternity, to be born by decree of our good, holy and just God, with their eternal end always in mind.

    Their final destinies were sure and certain, as were the destinies of the Elect.

    Predetermination of both eternal ends is double predestination.

    Example # 3: The Jews who crucified the Lord

    Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:

    23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain (Acts 2:22-23).

    It is here Peter accuses the Jews of doing wickedness which God had foreordained from eternity.

    In fact, it is the most wicked act ever perpetrated.

    Not only had God decreed the method, time and place of crucifixion, He also decreed who, exactly, would scourge Christ, who would make and place the crown of thorns on His head, who would mock Him, spit on Him, strike Him and nail Him to the cross.

    And not only that, the Lord predetermined the birth, life and judgment of Pilate, as well as that of all the Jews who preferred the release of Barabbas.

    All these people, and more, were all born to the end that they would partake, (precisely according to God’s perfect, eternal will), in the wicked crucifixion of Jesus for which they will be judged and destroyed. (The sole exception being those who have been granted repentance and faith.)

    It should be noted that our holy God is neither the cause nor an approver of evil.

    Rather, He has the power and wisdom to achieve His ends without compelling or forcing evil depraved men to do that which comes naturally.

    The king's heart is in the hand of the Lord, as the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will (Proverbs 21:1).

    A man's heart deviseth his way: but the Lord directeth his steps (Proverbs 16:9).

    Shame on John Rice for his willful ignorance and disdain for God’s truth.

    May God’s people not be deceived by Rice’s many distortions, perversions and hatred for what is good, pure and holy.

    NEXT: Some Final Thoughts on Reprobation
     
  5. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
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    When God wants something followed, something obeyed it is called a command.

    Disobedience to the command is sin.

    Show us where a reprobate does not sin.

    My understanding God commands all people to not sin. In other words he specifically wants no one to sin.

    If God wants no one to sin, that initial intention is universal salvation. Its the refusal and disobedience which puts one in sin.

    Going to hell itself is a sin.
     
  6. Protestant

    Protestant Well-Known Member

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    Until you take the time and effort to attempt to refute what has already been proven (all with scriptural authority), you will never come to terms with the truth of the matter.

    Your reasoning begins with a fallacy, thereby making your conclusions fallacious.
     
  7. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
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    Doesn't take rocket science to figure what God commands exactly what he desires.
     
  8. Protestant

    Protestant Well-Known Member

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    Some Final Thoughts on Reprobation

    All Dead Babies Go To Heaven?

    Lately there has been a controversy on the Baptist Board concerning the eternal destiny of all babies, infants and toddlers who die an untimely death.

    Then there is also the question of those who die in the womb.

    The general belief held by many Christians goes something like this:

    Since the very young are unable to discern the Gospel due to their mental immaturity, God will not hold them to the same standards as those who are mentally mature.

    Therefore, all who die before the age of accountability, (whatever that is), will be saved by God’s grace alone.

    Should that not be the case, God would prove to be unjust, unrighteous and eminently cruel.

    Thus is born the doctrine of ‘guaranteed salvation of those who die an untimely death before the age of accountability.’

    But consider the following:

    Should the fact of death before the age of accountability be the cause of guaranteed salvation, would it not behoove all God-fearing parents to somehow find a way for their beloved child to die before the age of accountability, thereby guaranteeing their loved one a heavenly destiny?

    By having their child die in its youth, the parents would eliminate any possibility of their blessed baby going to Hell as an adult reprobate.

    They would eliminate years of worry, potential heartbreak and possibly unanswered prayers.

    Think of the Israelites who sacrificed their babies to Moloch.

    According to the doctrine which guarantees the salvation of dead infants, all these children are in Heaven.

    Though evil was done to the child, the wickedness of the act could be mitigated since it was for a good cause: eternal salvation of their precious loved ones.

    Abortions could then be redefined as a selfless act of love.

    But there is another, more cogent argument against the doctrine of ‘guaranteed salvation of those who die an untimely death before the age of accountability.’

    By positing a cause for God’s electing purpose, we now fall into the error of our Pelagian/Arminian/non-Cal friends who posit foreseen faith as the cause of God’s electing purpose.

    But as the Bible explains in numerous ways, God’s electing purpose is eternal, and therefore, has no cause outside of Himself.

    Not foreseen faith or the foreseen untimely death of those before the age of accountability can cause God to elect a sinner.

    Those whom God saves are saved apart from anything favorable foreseen in them which could possibly mandate their salvation.

    Nothing in adult mature men or immature infant babies is cause for salvation.

    Merciful salvation is due to God’s good pleasure alone (Romans 9:15).

    An untimely infant’s death has no more favor with God than an elderly person dying of natural causes.

    To amplify this truth, we need only look to the destruction of all mankind, infants and pregnant mothers included, by means of the Flood.

    We also have the testimony of Exodus 20:5:

    For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me.

    The Lord God proclaims his right to destroy generations of haters, including children.

    With these two biblical testimonies we have enough proof that it is not true that all children who die an untimely death before the age of accountability are guaranteed Heaven as their destiny.

    On the other hand, Scripture does speak to the imputed holiness of children of believers (1 Cor. 7:14).

    In other words, our Lord views those children in a positive light.

    Certainly, the Christian has good reason to believe his deceased infant, like King David’s infant, is with the Lord.

    Bottom line: Let us be prudent and not go beyond what Scripture has revealed to us.

    Have nothing to do with foolish, ignorant controversies; you know that they breed quarrels (2 Timothy 2:23).

    NEXT: Old Testament Reprobates vs. New Testament Reprobates
     
  9. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
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    Total Depravity is Total Depravity. If you want it, now you gotta swallow it. Under Total Depravity ALL babies go to hell. They are all dead in sin.

    Show us scripture that says "age of accountability".

    Total depravity says there is NOTHING innocent about them, the only thing innocent is Christ.


    I'm surprised you have a soft spot. That's the holy spirit trying to drag you out of that trash doctrine.
     
  10. Protestant

    Protestant Well-Known Member

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    Your ignorance knows no bounds.
     
  11. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
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    Have no fear.

    God commands all not to sin. God commands all to love God and love neighbor.

    If God commands it, it means he desires and wants it.

    All you have to do make a case that says If God commands it, it doesn't mean he wants it.

    Piece of cake.
     
  12. Protestant

    Protestant Well-Known Member

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    Some Final Thoughts on Reprobation

    Part 2

    The New Testament Reprobates vs. The Old Testament Reprobates

    Not one person is brought into this world by necessity.

    Had God never created man, He would not be one whit less happy nor would He be lonely.

    As the infinitely perfect Being, God has no need for anything or anyone outside of Himself.

    God lacks nothing.

    Thus, man was created because it pleased God to do so.

    Otherwise, there would be no creation.

    Our God is in the heavens; he does all that he pleases (Psalm 115:3).

    Furthermore, it pleased God to create men He, with absolute certainty, knew were never to spend eternity with Him.

    They were instead to spend eternity in the Lake of Fire.

    Had it not pleased Him, not be a single person would be reprobated.

    For He could have chosen to save everyone ever born.

    Or, had it not pleased Him, not a single specific individual would be reprobated.

    For, rather than reprobate a specific individual, God had the choice to not bring that individual into the world in the first place.

    Or He could have chosen to elect that person for salvation.

    Yet for all the millions of reprobates God had no such purpose.

    Instead, His eternal purpose to reprobate was decreed with specific individuals in mind when He purposed to reprobate them.

    Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure (Isaiah 46:10).

    From eternity God knew the destinies of all people ever born.

    He knew because He predestined their destinies.

    This is called Double Predestination.

    In OT times, it pleased God to deny the Gospel to the vast majority of Gentiles, guaranteeing their ultimate damnation.

    But now in NT times, it pleases God to send the Gospel to all nations and peoples and tongues.

    Furthermore, our NT Gospel is far clearer than the OT Gospel given the Israelites.

    For we now have the life, ministry, teachings, death and resurrection of the Messiah Jesus written down for all posterity’s edification.

    In addition, we have a superior filling of the Holy Spirit than did those saints in the OT, though they, too, were regenerated, having been brought to faith and repentance by the same Spirit, the Spirit of grace (Hebrews 10:29; Zechariah 12:10).

    This fact explains John 7:39:

    Now this he said about the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were to receive, for as yet the Spirit had not been given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

    The Spirit had not yet been given in its fullness, which was to come at Pentecost.

    “I baptize you with water for repentance, but he who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire” (Matthew 3:11).

    And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.

    2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.

    3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.

    4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance (Acts 2:1-4).

    Furthermore, in the OT the indwelling of the Holy Spirit was quite limited in its scope; limited to the small number of Israel’s Elect.

    But after Pentecost the Spirit was to be given to the Elect worldwide:

    And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: (Acts 2:17).

    The testimony, preaching and teaching of God’s Spirit-filled people throughout the NT era has been consistent, unrelenting and uncompromising.

    In addition, we are blessed to have the writings, commentaries and sermons of many of God’s greatest preachers and teachers who declared His pure truth without shame or apology.

    In other words, the tools given us by the Lord by which to win souls are extensive and powerful.

    As terrible as the fate of the OT reprobate is, consider the fate of the NT reprobate.

    The OT reprobates will not be punished for rejecting Christ, of whom they did not hear.

    They will, instead, be judged for all other sins.

    But the NT reprobate who did hear of Christ, yet rejected Him, will face horrific eternal consequences which are too hard to imagine.

    Our Lord gives us a glimpse into the horror they are to face.

    In Luke 16, we are given much valuable information concerning the torment of the reprobates who reject Christ.

    Christ’s example of the rich man and Lazarus has application to the professing NT Church, comprised of true and false disciples of Christ, aka the wheat and the tares.

    Both the rich man and Lazarus were members of Israel, the professing people of God.

    Yet the rich man was not recognized by God as one of His.

    Likewise, the NT Church worldwide, consisting of all denominations, professes to be God’s people.

    Yet, as in Israel, Christ warns that many with such professions are not His (Matthew 7).

    The severity of torment explained

    In torment, the rich man asked a very small favor at first.

    If possible, placing one tiny drop of water on his tongue would be greatly appreciated.

    Mind you, he did not ask for a gallon of ice cold purified mountain water to quench his terrible unrelenting thirst.

    He asked for a miniscule drop of water, thankful for any relief, as insignificant as it may be.

    Yet even the least possible relief from torment is denied him.

    Does this divine truth not send terror and chills into the hearts and minds of Christians as to the horrifying destiny of those who reject the truth and teachings of Christ?

    Eternal punishment is unabated, devoid of any semblance of mercy, compassion or love.

    Its intensity is so horrific that one drop of water would be considered a blessing.

    Yet no such blessing is ever forthcoming.

    And what of the punishment due the false prophets, false teachers and false pastors?

    But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more (Luke 12:28).

    More final thoughts continued…………
     
  13. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
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    Believe me I am very dumb. But thankfully, You can help me with this easy question.
    When a reprobate sins is he doing what God wanted him to do?

    :eek:
     
  14. Protestant

    Protestant Well-Known Member

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    It's obvious the perpetual war raging between your bloated ego and your diminutive intellect causes you much anguish.
     
  15. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
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    I asked you one simple question and you are destroyed because of it.

    Satan is not going to win this, brother. He doesn't like the answer. Jesus Christ is Lord.
     
  16. Protestant

    Protestant Well-Known Member

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    Dear Destroyer:

    The only thing you have successfully destroyed is your credibility………and that you did hundreds of posts ago.
     
  17. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
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    Your panic has to attack my character.

    When a reprobate sins is he doing what God wanted him to do?


    ^Simple question, any Christian can answer,
     
  18. Protestant

    Protestant Well-Known Member

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    Some Final Thought on Reprobation

    Part 3

    All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him (Matthew 11:27 NIV).

    Jesus reveals the Father to those He chooses, according to His will of good pleasure alone.

    Our Pelagian/Arminian/non-Cal friends despise this truth because neither the will of man nor the ‘good’ works of man have any place in Christ’s choosing one sinner over another.

    In like manner, God the Father reveals the true nature of Christ to only those of His choosing, hiding the truth from many, according to the will of His good pleasure alone (Matthew 11:26).

    Our Pelagian/Arminian/non-Cal friends despise this truth because neither the will of man nor the ‘good’ works of man have any place in the Father’s choosing one sinner over another.

    In neither of these two verses is it intimated the revelation of God the Father or Jesus Christ to certain chosen sinners can possibly be met with little to no success.

    Rather, Christ teaches the impossibility of those ‘taught of God’ ever failing to come to Him in faith (John 6:37, 44-45).

    Keeping these eternal truths in mind, Christ’s High Priestly prayer in John 17 holds divine truths from which certain inferences may be made:

    And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent…………..have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word…………For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them……….I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world…….Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth………Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word…………….And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them .

    Inference # 1: Knowledge of the Father and Son is essential to salvation.

    Inference # 2: That knowledge is not given all men, also affirmed in Matthew 11:26-27.

    Inference # 3: Those men to whom that knowledge is given are those whom the Father chose to be recipients of salvation according to His will of good pleasure.

    Inference # 4: Those men to whom that knowledge is given will receive, believe and apply that knowledge to their lives and ministries, with no exception.

    Inference # 5: Those men who profess Christ, yet do not evidence true knowledge of God and Jesus Christ in their lives and ministries, are reprobate and anti-Christ.

    Inference # 6: He who proclaims to be Christ’s Vicar, the ‘holy’ father, the head of the Christian Church on earth, to whom obedience and reverence is due, yet proves, by his hatred of the true knowledge of God and Christ taught in His Word, he is that Antichrist of whom Scripture foretells.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    It matters not in which Pope you seek to find true knowledge of God and Christ, there is none to be found.

    However, all Elect Christians know the Lord God hates idolatry:

    Neither shalt thou set thee up any image; which the Lord thy God hateth (Deut. 16:22).

    Paul reiterates this truth when he states unequivocally that idolaters will not inherit Heaven (1 Cor. 6:9; Ephesians 5:5).

    John witnesses the same truth (Revelation 21:27; 22:15).

    Inference # 7: Those who hold the Papal office know not the true God or Christ.

    Conclusion: Popes are Hell-bound.

    Inference # 8: Their disciples are also Hell-bound (Matthew 15:14; John 13:16), unless they renounce Roman Catholicism, embracing the true knowledge of God the Father and Jesus Christ (Rev. 18:4).

    Conclusion: The only saved Roman Catholic is an ex-Roman Catholic.

    To be continued………
     
  19. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
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    You are correct in that Jesus can choose to whom God is revealed, Incorrect in assuming he has chosen to reveal to only a portion.
    God can reveal himself to who he pleases including everyone.

    Romans 1
    18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. 20For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. 21For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened.


    "Inference # 2: That knowledge is not given all men, also affirmed in Matthew 11:26-27."

    This only affirms Christ has the power to reveal to whom he reveals It has not stated that he has chosen NOT to reveal to anyone.

    God is evident WITHIN the heart of every man on earth.

    "Those men who profess Christ, yet do not evidence true knowledge of God and Jesus Christ in their lives and ministries, are reprobate and anti-Christ."

    It is not a matter they have no "TRUE KNOWLEDGE OF GOD" its that they DO HAVE IT and yet CHOOSE EVIL.


    God COMMANDS thus DESIRES and WANTS all men to follow his commands.

    God Commands thus desires and wants all men to not sin.

    Even though you know it is GOD's COMMAND you deny it as his desire.

    If NOT being a catholic is a good work how is it required to not be catholic for salvation rather then FAITH ALONE?


    I asked you a simple question of the command of God, piece of cake for a Christian to answer:

    When a reprobate sins is he doing what God wanted him to do?

    You don't want to answer this because then you would have to repent for denying the desire stated in the command of GOD.
     
  20. Protestant

    Protestant Well-Known Member

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    [​IMG]

    Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.

    7 Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,

    8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed(1 Peter 2:6-8).

    Peter confirms the absolute eternal decree of Reprobation by stating those who stumble in defiance of the truths concerning Christ’s divinity, sacrifice and teachings, were appointed, by the eternal decree of God, to such a damning destiny.

    The Popes of Rome have the dubious honor of occupying first place in this appointment.
     
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