Hello Bob.
Look if Isaiah regards the atonement as a guilt offering then it is a guilt offering but I have never said that the second goat was the guilt offering. That goat shows that sin has left Israel never to return. Prefiguring the state of true Israel that Jesus acheived on the cross.
What's Jesus doing in carrying out the religious duties of Levites? He is not a Levite. :cool:
Was there a Day of Atonement under the previous Priesthood? You know? I do. HaHa! Heb 5:10 and (Jesus) was designated by God to be high priest in the order of Melchizedek. That knocks you back don't it? :cool: Yea! Right on man! :cool: Heb 7:12 For when there is a change of the priesthood, there must also be a change of the law. Blown you out of the water man!
john.
The Atonement.
Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by johnp., May 31, 2005.
Page 6 of 13
-
Is Jesus guilt bearer or not?
john. </font>[/QUOTE]NOT! -
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Isaiah 53 is not one of the verses in Lev 16 so it is not possible to claim that Lev 16 says anything about "a guilt offering" without actually quoting something from Lev 16.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You keep making statements about Lev 16 speaking about a "Guilt offering" - and it does not... only to follow with claims about Isaiah 53 talking about the Day of Atonement and claiming that the Lev 16 event has a guilt offering specifice (Isiah 53 never mentions the Day of Atonement nore does it quote Lev 16).
You can't just make stuff up to make a point.
In Christ,
Bob -
Hello John
But only in His HEAVENLY role - is He the TYPE for the ANTITYPE of "Preist" according to Heb 8.
Passover was AFTER Melchizedek and yet "CHRIST our PASSOVER is SLAIN" 1 Cor 5.
In all the Lev 23 annual "TYPES" Christ is the great "ANTITYPE" to which they point (Colossians 2).
In Christ,
Bob -
Wes, Is Jesus guilt bearer or not?
Not!
Then bear it youself in the Lake of Fire.
john. -
Hello Bob.
Why don't you explain what that second goat is doing? :cool:
It is possible that I have become deranged I suppose. What event is Isaiah speaking about then?
john. -
Hello Bob.
Please explain what you mean.
If he were on earth, he would not be a priest, for there are already men who offer the gifts prescribed by the law.
He doesn't argue it does He He actually tells us, God that is through Paul. God won't argue the toss with you He tells you. Anyway what's that got to do with anything?
For it is clear that our Lord descended from Judah, and in regard to that tribe Moses said nothing about priests. 15 And what we have said is even more clear if another priest like Melchizedek appears, 16 one who has become a priest not on the basis of a regulation as to his ancestry but on the basis of the power of an indestructible life. 17 For it is declared:
"You are a priest forever,
in the order of Melchizedek."
HEB 7:18 The former regulation is set aside because it was weak and useless 19 (for the law made nothing perfect), and a better hope is introduced, by which we draw near to God.
The former regulation are set aside! You lose. What's Jesus doing in carrying out the religious duties of Levites? He is not a Levite. What is Jesus doing?
john. -
Ok - I hope you are "really" interested in the Hebrew text regarding the High Priestly work of Christ when you ask how it is that Christ would engage in something that HE DEFINED in scripture --
from some other source after Christ's work as high priest ends - is not endorsed by Hebrews 5.
to "draw near" to God through Him. This is the hope of the lost sinner. And it is clear from the text that His work is specific to intercession for the sins of the people.
The covenant that Christ is mediating - has everything to do with obtaining forgiveness of sins according to Hebrews 8 vs 12.
12 "" FOR I WILL BE MERCIFUL TO THEIR INIQUITIES, AND I WILL REMEMBER THEIR SINS NO MORE.''
to the record of sins and - then blotting out those sins from the books - all that work, was not taking place until the ministry in the heavenly sanctuary
started. Which was not in the pre-cross age.
11 But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things to come, He entered through the greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this creation;
12 and not through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood, He entered the holy place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption.
Here we see that it is not until Christ begins his role as priest - that He enters the heavenly sanctuary with His blood - for the purpose of dealing with sins, redemption
and salvation within the context of the heavenly sanctuary.
full-disclosure process being worked out in the heavenly sanctuary.
model showing us that in His High Priestly role - Christ is "appearing in the presence of God for us" based on the blood of the covenant - the sacrifice on the cross for the forgiveness of sins.
-
Heb 7 dealt explicitly and exclusively with the CHANGE in the Law regarding the PRIESTHOOD not regarding our WORSHIP of God (have no other God's before the ONE true God) OR our duty to man (No murder, no Coveting). It deals with the law of geneology of the priest SHOWING that Christ had NO Aaronic Geneology and was a Priest IN HEAVEN and the LAW regarding ANIMAL sacrifice and HUMAN priests is replaced by the highpriestly work of Christ and Christ's blood. NO ref to the 10 commandments.
NOW the sacrifice is the one in heaven - "Christ's blood" -- and is officiated by our High Priest - Christ. This is NOT a discussion of the 10 commandments and whether we really need to worry about taking God's name in vain.
NOT ONE sentence in Hebrews can be found contrasting the 10 commandments of God with some imaginary DUPLICATE set in the NT short one commandment - that of CHRIST the Creator's Holy Day. RATHER this is a contrast between SYSTEMS OF PRIESTHOOD.
Some do try to eisegete the 10 commandments into the text of Hebrews 7 - but we see clearly that instead of speaking of a supposed change in our obligation to worship the One True God - or a change in our obligation to parents or to avoid stealing etc - Heb 7 is CLEARLY speaking of the sacrificial system and priesthood that administers those sacrifices.
Observe carefully - not one vs of Hebrews conrasts "the 10 commandments and Jesus Christ".
Hebrews 7 - CONTRASTING the TWO priesthood systems –
A - humans die - but Christ does not.
B - Humans do not continue to serve the people as priests after their death so there must be MANY-- existed in greater numbers because they were
prevented by death from continuing,
C. Chosen NOT on the basis of Biblical law - but on the basis of "an indestructible Life" Vs 16
D. 3 Without father, without mother, without genealogy, having neither beginning of days nor end of life, but made like the Son of God,
he remains a priest perpetually.
E. Christ is prepared to TAKE that Melchizedek priesthood only AFTER death - AFTER making his sacrifice.
27 who does not need daily, like those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for His own sins and then for the sins of the people,
because this He did once for all when He offered up Himself.
Hebrews 8
1 Now the main point in what has been said is this: we have such a high priest, who has taken His seat at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens,
2 a minister in the sanctuary and in the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, not man.
3 For every high priest is appointed to offer both gifts and sacrifices; so it is necessary that this high priest also have something to offer.
4 Now if He were on earth, He would not be a priest at all, since there are those who offer the gifts according to the Law
The immortal requirement for the Melchizedek priesthood is met by Christ - alone, so the humans were "greater in number" in their priesthood system.
Heb 7:
25 Therefore He is able also to save forever those who draw near to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them.
Here we see the FUNCTION of this new priesthood - so unique to Christ.
HE SAVES those who DRAW NEAR to God THROUGH HIM. (vs 25)
He ALWAYS LIVES to make INTERCESSION for them (vs 25)
He is the GUARANTEE of A BETTER COVENANT. (vs 22)
26 For it was fitting for us to have such a high priest, holy, innocent, undefiled, separated from sinners and exalted above the heavens;
Again - His qualifications as CONTRASTED to the human qualifications under a human - earthly Aaronic system.
- Holy, Innocent, Undefiled, separated from SINNERs, EXALTED above the heavens.
27 who does not need daily, like those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for His own sins and then for the sins of the people, because this He did once for all when He offered up Himself.
28 For the Law appoints men as high priests who are weak, but the word of the oath, which came after the Law, appoints a Son, made perfect forever.
The CONTRAST again is between the LAW that ordained HUMAN priests - the sons of Aaron -
Humans were "weak, sinnders" who must offer sacrifices FOR THEIR OWN SINS as WELL as that of the people.
To prove that Christ was not establishing a parallel OR a rival priesthood system ON EARTH - after the cross, the writer of Hebrews makes this astounding statement
Heb 8:
4 Now if He were on earth, He would not be a priest at all, since there are those who offer the gifts according to the Law;
This is all so clear and IN THE TEXT - so that if we come to the chapter without and "agenda" we see the issue of priesthood and sacrifices and laws governing who can be a priest and what type of sacrifice is offerred are CLEARLY the explicit and obvious topic of the chapter.
But if we "snippet text" and cut a few sentences out of the context of the chapter - we can possibly support any pre-bias. -
That is where Atonement comes in! Because ALL are guilty of sinning, and retain that guilt forever. Jesus atoned for sin by removing the penalty that sin brings which is death. Atonement does not remove the guilt, it removes the death!
Your misconceptions of atonement have blinded you to the truth! -
Hello Wes.
You Wes! That's who. :cool: I'll give Paul the answer to his question when I meet him. HaHa!
It is God who justifies I can't be guilty when He says I'm not, what was that 2nd goat for?
I don't suffer guilt my conscience bears witness of this as a fact though I give you the counter, it might be sheared. :cool: From some of the reactions I get I think this has got some legs. :cool:
My guilt has gone. But that's only scripture and you won't let a small thing like that trip you up will you. Even holding to the belief that Jesus was never the goat!
HAB 1:11 Then they sweep past like the wind and go on--guilty men, whose own strength is their god."
john. -
Now you say that death comes from guilt. Sin is what causes guilt. It is the guilty person who is put to death!
Oh what a tangled web you weave!
Don't you know that guilt is the result of sin, and not the sin itself?
Don't you know that not all guilt is the result of sin, but can instead be a complement as in:
The declaration "so you're the one who brought all this good to the community".
The response: Yep, guilty as charged!
Does the latter example of guilt cause death?
You simply do not understand the meaning of the words you are using! -
Hello Wes.
charged 3 a : to bring an accusation against : call to account : BLAME <charged him as the instigator of the disorder> b : to make an assertion against especially by ascribing guilt or blame for an offense or wrong : ACCUSE -- used with with <reluctant to charge a dead man with an offense from which he could not clear himself -- Edith Wharton> c : to place the blame or guilt for
You die because you sin, this incurs guilt and guilt incurs God's wrath and you are a philosopher and as such follow the philosopher's creed. Words mean exactly what you want them to mean and never what they do mean.
What did that 2nd goat represent then?
john. -
Hello Bob.
Let me know what you think of this o most verbose one.
Sacrifices are sacrificed for paticular people and sometimes for a paticular sin of a man. If you realised a sin then you trot off to your local interface between you and God and you cut an animal's throat and this placates an angry Diety, chiefy God.
Once the blood has been spied by the Lord He forgives. That's what a sacrifice is meant to do isn't it, bring forgiveness?
Once a year a service is held for the whole nation, by order of said angry God, where a goat is slaughtered prefiguring Christ's sacrifice for the sins of Israel, His chosen nation. That's right ain't it?
Tell me which of the sacrifices did not specify the sins and the sinner and one that you can accept as not a member of the chosen nation please.
Your understanding of a universal atonement gives me the picture of an opened umbrella. One which if you walk into it's shade protects you against an angry God and one that you can step out of anytime you choose. But that is not forgiveness is it?
Tell me what sacrifice is like this in the nation of Israel please. Anyone will do that shows that the sacrifice only lasts as long as you choose it to. A sacrifice that is not forgiveness but probation.
I thought a sacrifice was meant to bring forgiveness Bob not no forgiveness but a 'watch yer step sonny boy'! :cool: Since that is true, that a sacrifice is made in paticular and acheives it's end, then everyone is saved and you are a universalist as I said before.
What do you think? :cool: What did the 2nd goat, you know there is a 2nd goat don't you, what did the 2nd goat prefigure if you don't mind answering? You don't mind answering do you? I would like to know what you know.
john. -
Johnp,
An accusation against a person for doing good, remains an accusation. The one who is accused acknowledging the accusation for having done good, is guilty of having done good!
The question: Is this kind of guilt the kind that brings death as it has been stated that guilt does?
If yes, then no one better do anything good and admit to it lest you die!
My point is that guilt did not bring death, sin brought death. Jesus death atoned for ALL sin, yet when one does sin, one remains guilty of having sinned! That guilt does not get removed, nor does it get transferred.
The consequence of sin did Get transferred FROM man TO God the son. Man no longer faces death by sinning! So with death from sin removed from man, why do men get cast into the lake of fire? Because they lack faith In God the Son. Man's SALVATION is through FAITH ALONE! -
If you are using the Hebrew scripture idea of "Atoning Sacrifice" or substitutionary atonement where it is the DEITY HIMSELF that is paying the debt owed - that is an entirely different model.
In all cases mankind has sinned. But in some cases it is "an individual" confessing and getting "individual forgiveness" based on God's viewing HIS OWN sacrifice for the sins of man.
In the case of the OT Animals - they were to remind man that God's OWN LAMB - God the SON was to be our payment for sin. As God saw that reminder of Christ (Messiah) He said He would forgive in view of the Messiah.
Saved By Grace through faith IN the substitutionary death of the Messiah to come. Forgiven on that SAME basis.
Instead of "angry God" it is "God who IS LOVE" that is being approached.
If the system is nothing more than the greek pagan appeasement of an angry deity - we are toast!
This is the model that God "who so LOVED The WORLD" gives us.
The pagan system "their gods so HATE that they are ANGRY and must be appeased".
IN the Hebrew Scriptures "God so LOVES that HE GIVES" and that FIRST cause - first act of God is why God the Son was "Sent to BE the savior OF THE WORLD" 1 John 4:10.
How much "better" when we go by the Bible eh?
The Day of Atonement was not to deal with NEW SINS committed on the Day of Atonement - but was to deal with ALREADY processed sins - that had ALREADY come into the temple throughout the year in the form of sin offerings, burnt offerings, guilt offerings...
AS for stepping out from under the umbrella - read Matt 18 - the last part of the chapter where Christ tells the story of what happens when you walk out from under the umbrella.
(No sense in making stuff up when we can just read the Bible and believe it).
In Christ,
Bob -
Hello Wes.
Don't play with words.
Hello Bob.
Yea Bob pagan? I wonder where they got the notion! :cool:
That is the Greek pagan notion of "proptiation". What of you then what do you think of that second flipping goat please? :cool: Your slowness in giving a reply to this question will be viewed a tacit approval that the 2nd goat is a prefiguring of Christ bearing the guilt of Israel. Because He is interested in paticular with me 'proptiation' because He is angry with man because he expresses his hatred of Him and He is at war with those He chooses to hate. "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated." The Despot
The 2nd goat please. :cool:
john. -
Hello Bob.
You will be glad to hear that I cannot give a definitive answer to Matt 18 because I see no umbrella mentioned in Matt 18. What verse in paticular? If it's anything to do with that servant that remained a servant, never a son, I don't know. What do you think? :cool:
Your goats gentlemen if you please. :cool:
john. -
Then Christ said to HIS followers "SO shall My Father do to EACH OF YOU IF you do not..."
Christians are "supposed" to listen to Christ last time I checked!
Just the "obvious".
I was thinking that you understood that through the Gospel and the blood of Christ "Alone" we have "forgiveness of sins".
Maybe I was going too fast.
I will try to keep that in mind.
In the mean time - show me the confusing part that leads you to think you are to reject the words of Christ in Matt 18.
In Christ,
Bob -
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lev 16:10 But the goat chosen by lot as the scapegoat shall be presented alive before the LORD to be used for making atonement by sending it into the desert as a scapegoat.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The "Atonement process" includes MORE than forgiveness (did I say that already??)
The Atonement PROCESS includes the high priestly work of Christ that is done AFTER the ascension and BEFORE the 2nd coming (did I say that already??)
The Atonement PROCESS includes the work done in Daniel 7 PRIOR to the 2nd coming where "judgment is passed in favor of the saints" for (as the Jews STILL note today ) it involves judgement of the ENTIRE World - a final disposition of sin. (Did I say that already?)
The Atonement PROCESS includes the court's determination of the ADDED guilt of the wicked including Satan and his angels. The wicked who (as in MAtt 7 CLAIMED the blood of Christ but are wolves in sheeps clothing). The blood of Christ claimed for them - does NOTHING for them. Their sin comes back to them to be paid BY them. Satan is also charged with the "Added sin" of tempting/tormenting those of ANOTHER kingdom (Christ's Kingdom) since the saints are now vindicated as IN Christ's kingdom via that court room.
(Did I say that already).
So this Goat - NOT slain, NOT a sin offering, NOT a substitionary sacrifice -- is part of the Atonement PROCESS where the wicked are judged and their OWN sins paid for by THEMSELVES!
There is your goat sir. Enjoy!
IN Christ,
Bob
Page 6 of 13