Here is my OP again. I may possibly have missed something, but I can't see where you have made any real attempt to deal with the substance of it
In the light of various threads, I feel that this is an important question to consider. There seem to be four differing views on the subject.
1. The Church of Rome view which proclaims that the Reformation was a great mistake and that all churches should come together under her who is the 'one and only true church of Christ.'
2. All that is required is a visible unity. All those who declare themselves Christian should come together in some sort of umbrella movement and work together for the progress of Christianity without worrying about Gospel distinctives. Their slogan is, "Doctrine divides; service unites."
3. The 'Gospel Unity' view. This is the view that there is no unity outside the Gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ. That unless there is agreement on the fundamentals of Christianity, particularly on the Person and work of Christ, the New Birth and the Divine inspiration, authority and sufficiency of the Bible, there can be no real church unity. But if these are agreed on, differences on the administration of ordinances and on Church order should not prevent fellowship between churches.
4. The 'Exclusivist' view. This is the view of KJV-only people, Landmarkists and some sections of the Reformed churches. With these people, fellowship between churches can only take place when there is total agreement on their particular distinctives.
Here I am going to argue for the third alternative. Not to say that Baptist distinctives are irrelevant or unimportant, but to say that they should not preclude Gospel fellowship.
The two texts that treat most especially on the question of unity are John 17:21 and Ephesians 4:13, and the verses surrounding each text. I will look at John 17 in this post and consider Ephesians 4, which is more complicated, in a later post (DV).
John 17:20-22. "I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word; that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in you; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me, and the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one."
The Lord Jesus has previously said that He is not praying for the world (v.9). He is praying here specifically for those who will come to believe through the Apostolic message- the Gospel. His prayer is that 'they all may be one;' not just a few, but all. The reason why our Lord desires this unity is 'that the world may believe that you sent Me.' The unbelieving world is not impressed with disunity. When they hear a babel of discordant voices, they are not likely to listen, and if they do, they are very likely to miss the truth.
The unity for which He prays is the same unity that exists between the Persons of the blessed Trinity. That is a unity of essence. There are three persons and yet one God with a unity of outlook and thought and purpose and love, yet there remains a distinction of Person.
This unity is not something new; it is already in existence. In vs.11-12, our Lord says, "[From] Now I am now longer in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to You, Holy Father. Keep through Your name those whom You have given Me, that they may be one as We are. While I was with them I kept them in Your name......" So the unity was there already, and now that the Son is leaving the earth, He prays to the Father to keep them. So this unity which is to pertain to the Church of Christ is one of essence. What makes a Christian is not a mere profession, nor an outward ordinance, but being a 'partaker of the divine nature' (2 Peter 1:4), born again of the Spirit of God. Not indeed, made divine, but being indwelt by the Spirit of God. It is these, and no others, for whom the Lord prays, that they may be one. "......Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the Son of perdition, that the Scriptures might be fulfilled." Judas is not one of them. He was among them but was not of them. He participated with them but his heart was not changed. So it is not outward professors who have this unity, but those who are born from above.
So the unity is not of man, but of God. It is not a group of people deciding to found a new denomination or a new society. It is not a matter of friendship or mutual admiration; it is of God, a unity of those who have been born of Him. And since the Lord Jesus prays for this unity, it must be an established fact. There is a further unity; the 'perfect' or 'complete' unity of v.23. This is something for the future and has to do with Ephesians 4:11-14 which I hope to write on later.
The Lord Jesus continues (v.24), "Father, I desire that they also whom You have given Me may be with Me where I am, that they may behold My glory." There is no question of some of these people being outside of the New Jerusalem because they are not part of some mythical 'Baptist Bride.' No, no! All the elect will be together on that last day, before the throne and before the Lamb (Revelation 7:9-10).
The Basis of Christian Unity
Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Martin Marprelate, Nov 14, 2016.
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Martin Marprelate Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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Martin Marprelate Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
The grand object of prayer is to be that the Holy Spirit may be poured down on our ministers and churches, that sinners may be converted, the saints edified, the interest of religion revived and the name of God glorified. At the same time, remember, we trust you will not confine your requests to your own societies {i.e. churches]; or to your own immediate connection [i.e. denomination]; let the whole interest of the Redeemer be affectionately remembered, and the spread of the gospel to the most distant parts of the habitable globe be the object of your most fervent requests. We shall rejoice if any other Christian societies of our own or other denominations will unite with us, and do now invite them most cordially to join heart and hand in the event. [emphasis mine]
The same call was repeated in 1786 and in the following years. The prayers were graciously answered in great increases in Baptist churches and in the start of the Baptist Missionary Society with William Carey. -
The Biblicist Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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Martin Marprelate Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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I jumped past all the verbose posts.
There are many phases of church unity.
Personally, the bottom horrendous line as a former Catholic would be unity with the RCC.
However I have/had no qualms about marching with Catholics in a pro-life demonstration i.e. - Washington State March For Life (when I was able to walk long distance) - but that does not mean I will go to their church to say the rosary before the march.
Scripture, the Spirit and my heart are the deciding factors.
HankD -
The Biblicist Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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HankD -
The Biblicist Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
17 ¶ Sanctify them through your truth: your word is truth.
18 As you have sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.
19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.
20 ¶ Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21 That they all may be one; as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that you have sent me.
22 And the glory which you gave me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23 I in them, and you in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that you have sent me, and have loved them, as you have loved me.
24 ¶ Father, I will that they also, whom you have given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which you have given me: for you loved me before the foundation of the world.
25 O righteous Father, the world has not known you: but I have known you, and these have known that you have sent me.
26 And I have declared to them your name, and will declare it: that the love with which you have loved me may be in them, and I in them.
Verses 17-19 is about the basis of sanctification - separated by the word of truth
Verses 20-21 is Christ's prayer that the word of truth will be shared with future generations or the unity of believers in the word of truth and in glory one day.
Verses 22-23 is about the "glory" of Christ that the Father gave the Son. Here, the word "glory" refers to the honor bestowed upon the Son by the Father because of his fidelty to the Word of Truth. Sanctification provides unity in truth and that is what God honors - unity in truth.
Verses 24-25 - Refers to the glory the Father bestowed on the Son before the world was created - here Glory refers to his divine majesty as Deity and intimate knowledge of the divine Trinity of one another.
Verse 26 refers to the "name" of God or that which represents His attributes, revealed will and authority. This is the love of God that we keep His commandments. To gather "in his name" is to gather in accordance to His revealed will and authority. Here again is unity based upon truth, the truth in Christ that he revealed to them that demonstrates his love for the Father and the love in them for the Father.
Conclusion: True unity is based on truth and truth is determined by being set apart by the Word of God. Christ was totally set apart unto God by obedience of the truth. This was the basis of His "glory" bestowed upon him by the Father as one who always did that which pleased the Father. -
The Biblicist Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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HankD -
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Martin Marprelate Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
The unity for which [Christ] prays is the same unity that exists between the Persons of the blessed Trinity. That is a unity of essence. There are three persons and yet one God with a unity of outlook and thought and purpose and love, yet there remains a distinction of Person.
This unity is not something new; it is already in existence. In vs.11-12, our Lord says, "[From] Now I am now longer in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to You, Holy Father. Keep through Your name those whom You have given Me, that they may be one as We are. While I was with them I kept them in Your name......" So the unity was there already, and now that the Son is leaving the earth, He prays to the Father to keep them. So this unity which is to pertain to the Church of Christ is one of essence. What makes a Christian is not a mere profession, nor an outward ordinance, but being a 'partaker of the divine nature' (2 Peter 1:4), born again of the Spirit of God. Not indeed, made divine, but being indwelt by the Spirit of God. It is these, and no others, for whom the Lord prays, that they may be one.
Christian unity is not based on outward ordinances but is one of essence.
I am finished on this forum for a while, so you are free not to deal with the OP again if you want. -
The Biblicist Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
No! The essence of unity is the "GLORY" of the context which is TRUTH as this unites the Father with the Son in his incarnation as He is "the WORD". There is not another God! Unity of ESSENCE has to do with what makes God to be God. The essence of God is "spirit" but so is the essence of angels but what makes God's essence or "spirit" unique is its ATTRIBUTES.
1. ALL "in Adam" are "in the flesh" (phsyical union) because they have been "BORN of the flesh" without any kind of baptism or church membeship
ALL "in Christ" are "in the Spirit" (spiritual union) because they have been "BORN of the Spirit" without any kind of baptism or church membership.
2. ALL "in Adam" had been CREATED in Adam, likewise, ALL"in Christ" have been "CREATED in Christ" by new birth (Eph. 2:1-10) not by any kind of baptism or church membership.
3.No baptism in the Spirit (as you define it) preceded Pentecost and so no one could be "in Christ" as you define it previous to Pentecost and there is no salvation OUTSIDE of Christ for anyone at any time thus repudiating your theory altogether as your theory demands ANOTHER WAY of salvation OUTSIDE Christ before Pentecost.
4. The NT church cannot precede its own "foundation" which consists of NT materials (apostles) FIRST being "set in" the church by God not OT people of God thus repudiating your whole theory as you define "in Christ" as synonymous with being in the church body of Christ. Thus again, your theory demands another way of salvation prior to Matthew.
5.ALL "in Adam" have been born into this world in a state of SPIRITUAL SEPARATION from God and that is the how Paul uses the descriptive phrase "in the flesh" in Romans 8:8 and ALL who are "in the flesh" in that spiritual sense are "NONE OF HIS" - Rom. 8:9 - whereas ALL of his are "in the Spirit" which he defines as synonymous with "indwelt by the Spirit" or SPIRITUAL UNION - Rom. 8:9
6. Spiritual SEPARATION which is spiritual DEATH and this is the universal problem and the ONLY possible universal solution to this problem is Spiritual UNION which is spirtual LIFE and that is what BIRTH/quickening NOT any kind of baptism or church membership. -
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