True.
But I am taking texts that go beyond that point - to the case of those "fully forgiven" the case of those who "stand only by their faith".
I use the terms in the texts of the OP "fully forgiven" Matthew 18 and "standing by faith alone" Romans 11
Then you need to identify a Bible doctrine that allows the lost to be "fully forgiven of all sin" and "standing by faith alone" and yet still lost - having never been saved.
The Bible condemns OSAS doctrine.. yet some folks still believe it
Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by BobRyan, Mar 28, 2018.
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Pastor_Bob Well-Known Member
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OR does it say to return all the debt and that he should pay "all" in the context of the debt forgiven?
Which way does the text read in your opinion?
In the parable the king is not claiming to pass monetary fines on people for "unkind actions" -- rather it is setup as financial debt owed as a symbol of the sin debt that we have. Thus the return of the financial debt (symbolizes forgiveness revoked). In the parable the only financial debt available for reference is the initial one - that was fully forgiven.
2. In your previous answer you said you wanted to avoid the problem of purgatory - but that is not an exegetical solution to the chapter because it only appeals to an outside interest (outside of the parable) and as I showed - purgatory is not the only option in that forgiveness revoked teaching. (In fact I showed that given the detail in the parable - it is not even a option)
3. We probably both agree that the Gospel model I am using is perfectly consistent with the "forgiveness revoked" teaching that we find in Matthew 18. I can simply accept the text as it reads and so I do need to "fix" the text in any way.
I "hope" we can agree that all the posts trying to hold to OSAS - have had to try and find ways to "fix" Matthew 18. - by contrast. -
poor-in-spirit Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
Please notice in our Lord's Gospels that whenever He discussed His Gospel He never one time made it an easy believe proposition. Only last days "christians" say anything like that. Our Lord's version of true belief in every instance had life changing action directly tied to this belief. And most notably, in every instance our Lord made it clear up front what it would cost us to believe unto righteousness. He made no bones about it.
Most repackage the Gospel message to make it more palatable for the flesh, we count the costs for them just so they will acknowledge some kind of belief (like the foolish sowers we are):
Luke 14: 26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple. And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple. For which of you, intending to build a tower, sitteth not down first, and counteth the cost, whether he have sufficient to finish it? Lest haply, after he hath laid the foundation, and is not able to finish it, all that behold it begin to mock him, Saying, This man began to build, and was not able to finish. Or what king, going to make war against another king, sitteth not down first, and consulteth whether he be able with ten thousand to meet him that cometh against him with twenty thousand? Or else, while the other is yet a great way off, he sendeth an ambassage, and desireth conditions of peace.
So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple. Salt is good: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be seasoned? It is neither fit for the land, nor yet for the dunghill; but men cast it out. He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.
An unregenerate gospel is a cost-counting one. If one believes regardless of the costs, they are saved. The tares love the cost counting "gospel" it is right up their ally. Remember the Sower and his four believing souls. They all believed in some form but only one with ploughed soil (good ground in their heart).
Tares add religion in Christ's Name to their lives.
Wheat replace their whole life on earth with following Christ.
Which are we? Does anyone ask themselves this?
Saddest part is that this cost counting false gospel seems to be the only one mentioned in these last days.
All of the Epistles reiterate this repeatedly. Every seeming "just say you believe" passage in context shows evidence and action due to this belief. The wolves pluck these passages out of their contexts to promote a false doctrine of salvation. They do this for numbers and revenue and elevation by men (IOWs Mammon) because they are tares themselves folks.
Had the forgiven person's heart changed, he would have followed his lord's lead and forgiven others. This is the point Bob, he was a fraud. A fraud like most of Christianity is today.
Most say: just believe and you will be saved! ignoring all context of the passages they reference.
God says if you truly believe then you will lose your self esteem in this life, pick up your cross and follow Him................... -
Steven Yeadon Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
BobRyan,
Is the Holy Spirit an eternal deposit or not? There is a position of privilege if this is simply true. Believers born again by the Spirit are different than everyone else. -
Pastor_Bob Well-Known Member
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Pastor_Bob Well-Known Member
God can and does forgive but He does not always cancel His judgement.
Psalms 99:8 Thou answeredst them, O LORD our God: thou wast a God that forgavest them, though thou tookest vengeance of their inventions.
- Psalm 103:12 As far as the east is from the west, so far hath he removed our transgressions from us.
- Isaiah 43:25 I, even I, am he that blotteth out thy transgressions for mine own sake, and will not remember thy sins.
- Jeremiah 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
- Acts 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
- Hebrews 8:12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
- Hebrews 10:17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
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Revmitchell Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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in the narrative Christ gives - the debt owed is given as some amount of money , no reason is given for that financial debt but we take it to symbolize our debt for sin.
So a parable updated for today "The billionaire invited a person to his home and that person accidently broke a 500 million dollar antique while trying to steal it" whereupon the owner can either demand payment or can simply forgive the debt. The guest pleads for mercy the home owner forgives the debt. Then finds out that the person forgiven is about to take someone to court for accidentally breaking a lawn sprinkler head in his own yard.
In both of these examples (Matthew 18 and the one I just made up) the response is the same - the one who initially forgave the massive monetary debt says that the person must "repay all".
Not "repay this one additional amount" because in fact no new "amount" is even given.
Matt 18
24 When he had begun to settle them, one who owed him ten thousand talents was brought to him. 25 But since he did not have the means to repay, his lord commanded him to be sold, along with his wife and children and all that he had, and repayment to be made
32 Then summoning him, his lord *said to him, ‘You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me. 33 Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?’ 34 And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him
The problem is not presented as "I am willing to forgive X-debt but not X+Y-debt because I am all tapped out".
Rather "I forgave X-debt and you did not go and forgive others as I forgave you -- so fine - you must now repay all" -
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For example Ezekiel 18 shows the very same principle as Matthew 18 "repay all" - after being on the saved side of the fence -- later being put over to the lost side and none of the prior history/benefits being applicable at all. -
Matt 18
24 When he had begun to settle them, one who owed him ten thousand talents was brought to him. 25 But since he did not have the means to repay, his lord commanded him to be sold, along with his wife and children and all that he had, and repayment to be made
32 Then summoning him, his lord *said to him, ‘You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me. 33 Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?’ 34 And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him
Matt 18
34 And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him. 35 My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.”
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Revmitchell Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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Matthew 7
22“Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ 23“And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’
Matthew 12
24But when the Pharisees heard this, they said, “This man casts out demons only by Beelzebul the ruler of the demons.”
25And knowing their thoughts Jesus said to them, “Any kingdom divided against itself is laid waste; and any city or house divided against itself will not stand. 26“If Satan casts out Satan, he is divided against himself; how then will his kingdom stand?
I'm adding Matthew 12 in case you get idea it was the devil driving out the devil. To drive out demons they would have had to been 100% saved Christians, believers of Jesus Christ. -
That's a pretty nifty trick ... to become a "100% saved Christians, believers of Jesus Christ" and yet Jesus Christ never knew them? How does this salvatation apart from Christ work?
I always thought it was more like:
Acts 19:13-16 [NASB]
13 But also some of the Jewish exorcists, who went from place to place, attempted to name over those who had the evil spirits the name of the Lord Jesus, saying, “I adjure you by Jesus whom Paul preaches.” 14 Seven sons of one Sceva, a Jewish chief priest, were doing this. 15 And the evil spirit answered and said to them, “I recognize Jesus, and I know about Paul, but who are you?” 16 And the man, in whom was the evil spirit, leaped on them and subdued all of them and overpowered them, so that they fled out of that house naked and wounded.
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Everyone agrees that Christ speaks to his own followers as those fully forgiven - that is not even debatable
Everyone agrees that in the teaching of Christ "the basis" for our forgiving others - is that we have first experienced full forgiveness for our debt of sin - by God
Everyone agrees that at the end of the parable Christ said to his own followers - "So shall My Father do the SAME to each one of you IF"
This is not even questioned
The question is what does it mean to "Do the SAME" to each one of you -- as Christ states it -
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The Psalmist pleads "take not Thy Holy Spirit from me"
God said "My Spirit shall not always strive with man"
Ezekiel 18 and Matthew 18 both describe the scenario where forgiveness received - is fully revoked.
your responses to Matthew 18, and Romans 11 and 1Cor 6 as listed in the OP has been to look to other texts that do not make those very pointed statements. And I certainly agree that not every text in the Bible makes those same pointed statements that we find the the examples given in the OP. -
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