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The Bible condemns OSAS doctrine.. yet some folks still believe it

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by BobRyan, Mar 28, 2018.

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  1. revmwc

    revmwc Well-Known Member

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    But again had he not turned what did Paul say? "that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus" You say nothing of the 1st Timothy verse did those two learn not to blaspheme after being turned over to Satan for destruction? We don't know but the same terminology was used for them as was for the man in 1 Corinthians, notice 1 Timothy, "I have delivered unto Satan", verse 1 Corinthians "deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh". Those who are saved and revert to living a sinful life are turned over to satan for destruction of the flesh but Paul stated clearly, "that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus". The man in 1st Corinthians clearly came back but Paul said if he was turned over to satan for destruction of his body the spirit would remain saved.

    So let's take you view a minute if OSAS is not biblical then not one person will be saved, not one will go to heaven James 2:10 10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. If you violate just one point of the law your guilty of all and if you died the moment you violated one having been faithful the whole time you would die and go to hell by the teaching of turning back to sin. Matthew 5:28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart. Here again if you look on a woman with a thought of lust and have thus committed adultery if not OSAS you look and died that instance you by your teaching would wend up in hell.

    But what do we see Jesus say? John 10:
    27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
    28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
    29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
    30 I and my Father are one.

    How does one follow Christ? By believing on Him as John 3:16-18 states "those who believe are not condemned" once in His hand not one person can remove the saved from Christ hand and He and the Father hold us tight. No one is stronger than God, so if you say as many do I"I can remove myself" you are saying God in not Omnipotent because you are saying that you are stronger than God. Notice something very Important about what Jesus stated in verse 28, "I give unto them eternal life" where does salvation come from? Christ gives eternal life and to whom does He give it? Ephesians 2:8 & 9 " For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should s boast." Christ said He gives eternal life Paul says salvation is the gift of God because of Faith. John 3:
    16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
    17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
    18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

    Salvation comes by believing on Christ. 1 John 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

    Not one thing about you must live a pure life to keep salvation, Salvation comes to those who believe, not those who through perseverance keep salvation. Salvation is the gift of God to all who believe and once saved you are always saved.

    One more point 1 Corinthians 3:
    11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
    12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
    13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
    14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
    15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

    The foundation of Salvation is Christ not our works, that is believing on Him. Now there will be believers who face Christ at the Bema or Judgment seat
    Romans 14:10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
    When we stand before Him we will receive our eternal rewards, notice some will have gold, silver and precious stones while others will have wood, hay and straw. I personally believe most will all have a little of both. Those who are saved or as you stated "living like the devil all the way to heaven" will have wood, hay and straw but notice verse 15 what will they have in eternity? "he himself shall be saved" rewards burnt to a crisp nothing to show for being faithful to Christ and living for Him, but they will have salvation. Again Paul says those who suffer loss of loss of the rewards for unspiritual works as a believer will suffer that loss but they will be saved, no question. Not one persons works keeps them saved, but for those we do as lead of the Holy Spisrt we will have great rewards in eternity.
     
  2. revmwc

    revmwc Well-Known Member

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    handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all You seem to hold this as being hell but what did Paul say of those in gross sin? They are "turned over to Satan for destruction" isn't he the torturer? Isn't that the one who was shown mercy and not living for Christ being repaid through the torturer on this side of the grave? If we fail to forgive our fellow man won't God turn us over to satan if we walk in sin? But not for eternity but this side of the grave for the "destruction of the flesh" but "the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus" or "but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire"! very clear OSAS is clear through out scripture.
     
  3. johnjudge

    johnjudge Member

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    This argument is an old one, and one that has a simple answer....a person CAN WALK AWAY from the lord and reject the teachings AND salvation.

    One side will say that person was never saved (the Judas argument) or one can say they were acting, yada yada yada.
    But just like there are "proof texts" that "show" OSAS, there is one strong one that says this is a false doctrine of man...Luke 9.62. Chose your translation...

    Luke 9:62 Jesus replied, "No one who puts a hand to the plow and looks back is fit for service in the kingdom of God."

    In my mind the OSAS argument is made void by this simple passage......
     
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  4. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    Again, this assumes that one who has put the hand to the plow is saved.
     
  5. baptistteacher

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    Amen!
     
  6. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    John 10:10 fully supports OSAS, and destroys your false EW viewpoints!
     
  7. revmwc

    revmwc Well-Known Member

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    So how do you see that? It says "No one who puts a hand to the plow and looks back is fit for service in the kingdom of God" but does it say if he looks back he won't go in the kingdom? Who is fit for service in the Kingdom of God? Romans 3:
    22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
    23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
    24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
    25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
    26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

    Everyone one of us aren't worthy of Service to the Kingdom for we are all sinners who come short of God's glory. But we are all justified if we have placed our faith in Him. Christ became the Appeasement for all sin and through Faith in His shed blood we are declared righteous because our sin has been remitted by the Blood of Christ not by works or our keeping a worthy walk. But throuegh th forbearance of God who is the justifier of those which believe in Jesus. Not one thing about our keeping close to Him, He does everything we need only to place Faith in Him.

    1 John written to believers states this in Chapter 1,
    6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
    7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
    8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
    9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
    10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

    This shows the believer can and does walk in sin, fellowship = κοινωνία (koinōnia)= participation, communion. Can we have communion if we have sin in our lives? No but is fellowship = to salvation? Not at all the man in 1 Corinthians was to be disfellowshipped but he was still saved. Fellowship comes by walking in the light that is being filled with the Spirit as seen in Ephesians 5:18 that comes when we have confessed our known sins and are cleansed from unkown as verse 9 says. If you say you have no sin you make God a liar. How long do you walk in sin as believer before confession will not brng forgiveness but will bring loss of salvation? Notice what John did not say he didn't say confess and be saved he said confess and be cleansed of all unrighteousness that is not salvation because he is talking about our walk as believers. We are either walking in the light or walking in sin but we are still believers.
     
  8. revmwc

    revmwc Well-Known Member

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    1 Corinthians 3:
    1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
    2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.
    3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?

    Seems the believers at Corinth were walking in sin yet saved. There was sin in their midst and they were operating in the flesh yet saved.
     
  9. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Matt 18

    21 Then Peter came to Him and said, “Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? Up to seven times?”

    22 Jesus said to him, “I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven. 23 Therefore the kingdom of heaven is like a certain king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants. 24 And when he had begun to settle accounts, one was brought to him who owed him ten thousand talents. 25 But as he was not able to pay, his master commanded that he be sold, with his wife and children and all that he had, and that payment be made. 26 The servant therefore fell down before him, saying, ‘Master, have patience with me, and I will pay you all.’ 27 Then the master of that servant was moved with compassion, released him, and forgave him the debt.


    32 Then summoning him, his lord *said to him, ‘You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me. 33 Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?’ 34 And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him. 35 My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.”

    True - because
    "The wages of sin is death" Rom 6:23
    "The soul that sins it shall die" Ezek 18:4
    "The second death" Rev 20 is that debt/punishment that will be applied to the lost, the wicked and it is the only death that the saints do not die - because Christ pays our debt for us.



    No. The 1 Cor 5 statement that you quote is about someone engaged in immorality who was being disfellowshipped (cast out of the church, turned over to Satan) and who in 2 Cor 7 comes back to the church in repentance as a result - and is welcomed back into the church.

    Matthew 25 tells us that hell is reserved as the place of punishment "for the devil"
    41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:

    Rev 20 says the Devil is cast into the Lake of Fire - the second death.

    Matt 18 says "I forgave you all that debt" -- it does not say "satan forgave you all that debt".
    And it says that the servant would then have to "rePAY all" -- God does not "get paid" when the devil does evil to someone.


    The text says "repay all"

    God does not "get paid" when the devil does evil to someone.
     
    #109 BobRyan, Mar 31, 2018
    Last edited: Mar 31, 2018
  10. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Christ's teaching in Matthew 18 was not that each time you sin you are lost. Certainly there are sins that the saints commit - and repent and are not lost each time they sin.

    But Christ in Matthew 18 brings up the scenario of refusing to forgive someone else - then a day of judgment. This is where He brings in the subject of "forgiveness revoked"
     
  11. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    ]Matt 18

    21 Then Peter came to Him and said, “Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? Up to seven times?”

    22 Jesus said to him, “I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven. 23 Therefore the kingdom of heaven is like a certain king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants. 24 And when he had begun to settle accounts, one was brought to him who owed him ten thousand talents. 25 But as he was not able to pay, his master commanded that he be sold, with his wife and children and all that he had, and that payment be made. 26 The servant therefore fell down before him, saying, ‘Master, have patience with me, and I will pay you all.’ 27 Then the master of that servant was moved with compassion, released him, and forgave him the debt.


    32 Then summoning him, his lord *said to him, ‘You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me. 33 Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?’ 34 And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him. 35 My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.”



    True - because
    "The wages of sin is death" Rom 6:23
    "The soul that sins it shall die" Ezek 18:4
    "The second death" Rev 20 is that debt/punishment that will be applied to the lost, the wicked and it is the only death that the saints do not die - because Christ pays our debt for us.


    Hint; -- Ellen White did not write those texts you are rejecting - and your "solution" that is of the form "fine then lets look at other texts less pointed against OSAS" -- not very convincing.

    Matthew 18 is Jesus' teaching.. not Ellen White.

    So also John 15 -- is Jesus' teaching
    “I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away;and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.

    5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.
     
  12. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Salvation works this way

    "By grace are you saved through faith" Eph 2.
    "having been justified by faith we have peace with God" Rom 5:1

    1 Tim 1: that you briefly reference actually says this
    18 This charge I commit to you, son Timothy, according to the prophecies previously made concerning you, that by them you may wage the good warfare, 19 having faith and a good conscience, which some having rejected, concerning the faith have suffered shipwreck, 20 of whom are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I delivered to Satan that they may learn not to blaspheme.

    Paul says these two no longer have faith. Rom 5:1 and Eph 2:8-9 do not describe salvation apart from faith. Paul does not say "they will be saved apart from faith".

    And Paul also does not say "turning them over to Satan they will - repay ALL the debt of sin that God forgave for them"

    The failure of OSAS to stand sola scriptura testing does not mean that forgiveness of sin must also fail. 1 John 2:1 "these things I write that you sin not - but if anyone does sin we have an advocate"


    Matthew 18 teaching of Christ is not of the form "if you sin one time after being saved -- then your day of judgment comes and you are case immediately into hell". Rather it is about those who HAVE been fully forgiven all - and then some future day comes - the judgment (a one time event) and they are found to have had forgiveness revoked for their determined rebellion.

    That is extreme inference -- Matthew 18 shows a case of stubborn rebellion against God and your argument is that we cannot let Christ's teaching stand as it is -- as you come up with your own creative-writing scenario for why we would not want the Matthew 18 teaching of Christ to stand without opposition. I don't think you have thought that through.


    Christ does make the "no one is stronger than God" case - but Christ does not say that rebellion against God will get you "heaven" or even 'more heaven' -- rather He promises it will get you hell.

    Matthew 7 "By their fruits you shall know them"
    21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

    Build on the Rock
    24 “Therefore whoever hears these sayings of Mine, and does them, I will liken him to a wise man who built his house on the rock:

    Rev 14:12 "the saints KEEP the Commandments of God and their faith in Jesus"
    1 Cor 7:19 "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God"

    John 1:11 "He came to His OWN and His OWN received Him not"

    Matthew 23
    "37 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing! "

    Not at all - I am saying God sovereignly created the free-will system you see described in those scriptures. AND he created the judgment event Christ describes in Matthew 18.

    Rom 11 says the very thing you claim would show that man is "stronger than God"



    Romans 11
    19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.


    That is the system - the way that God set it up. It has nothing to do with "being stronger than God"

    Why are the saved, fully forgiven, who "stand by your faith" -- to "fear" in Romans 11?

    Are they to "fear that someone is stronger than God"? Not according to the chapter.
    They are to "fear" because God has setup a system whereby they can be cut off - if they so choose
     
    #112 BobRyan, Mar 31, 2018
    Last edited: Mar 31, 2018
  13. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    As the "weight of scripture" thread suggests... "look at it this way"

    -- "Choose the Bible - as your basis for doctrine")

    Matt 18
    32 Then summoning him, his lord *said to him, ‘You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me. 33 Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?’ 34 And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him. 35 My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.”

    Romans 11
    19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

    1 Cor 6
    9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified

    Ezek 18
    21 “But if a wicked person turns away from all the sins they have committed and keeps all my decrees and does what is just and right, that person will surely live; they will not die. 22 None of the offenses they have committed will be remembered against them. Because of the righteous things they have done, they will live. 23 Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Sovereign Lord. Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live?
    24 “But if a righteous person turns from their righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked person does, will they live? None of the righteous things that person has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness they are guilty of and because of the sins they have committed, they will die.
    25 “Yet you say, ‘The way of the Lord is not just.’ Hear, you Israelites: Is my way unjust? Is it not your ways that are unjust? 26 If a righteous person turns from their righteousness and commits sin, they will die for it; because of the sin they have committed they will die.
    4. The soul that sins - it shall die

    1 Cor 9
    23 I do all things for the sake of the gospel, so that I may become a fellow partaker of it.
    24 Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but only one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may win. 25 Everyone who competes in the games exercises self-control in all things. They then do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable. 26 Therefore I run in such a way, as not without aim; I box in such a way, as not beating the air; 27 but I buffet my body and make it my slave, lest after I have preached (the Gospel) to others, I myself will not be disqualified from it.

    Hebrews 6
    4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.

    Gal 5
    4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace
    ..

    Heb 2
    1 For this reason we must pay much closer attention to what we have heard, so that we do not drift away from it. 2 For if the word spoken through angels proved unalterable, and every transgression and disobedience received a just penalty, 3 how will we escape if we neglect so great a salvation?
    After it was at the first spoken through the Lord, it was confirmed to us by those who heard,

    1 Cor 10
    11 Now these things happened to them as an example, and they were written for our instruction, upon whom the ends of the ages have come. 12 Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed that he does not fall......

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------- this small list given for this reason

    To show briefly that this is not the case of "one or two texts that must be fixed to fit OSAS" - but there is the whole of scripture to be reckoned with on this subject as the apparent meaning clearly seen in the text is not at all in line with the ideas suggested in OSAS.
     
  14. revmwc

    revmwc Well-Known Member

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    What do they repay? nothing because they paid nothing for salvation it was a gift! Who made the payment for your sin? Christ Who paid the price for all Sin? Christ A gift is never paid for. What condemns one to hell? That is really the question for OSAS what condemns a person to Hell? John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

    basanistes

    pr. an inquisitor, tormentor; in NT a keeper of a prison, jailer, Mt. 18:34*

    So here we see it is the tormentor or inquisitor, 1 Corinthians 5 and turning over for destruction, ὄλεθρος (olethros) perdition, destruction, that is to be tormented or destroyed by the tormentor, what is destroyed? Paul says the body that the Spirit might be saved. 1 Timothy 6:9 olethros is used for ruin. They would be turned over for ruin, by whom satan the tormentor, Matthew 18:34 they are turned over to the tormentors satan and his angels for destructio of the flesh in the sin unto death. 1 John 5:16 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.
    The sin unto death is being turned over to satan for destruction of the flesh and physical death comes to those who are saved and turn back to sin.

    Then Luke 16:23 the rich man lifted up hi eyes being in βάσανος (basanos) torture, torment, severe pain. Different wording for Hell or the eternal place for the unbeliever.

    Revelation 3:19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.
    Those who are God's are chastened if you walk with him and never fall back to sin why would He need to chasten you. You fall and as you believe lose your salvation there is no chastening for you are no longer His. So he has to convict you. Hebrews 12:
    5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:
    6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
    7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
    8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

    If you aren't chastened by God you don't belong to Him.

    1 Corinthians 11:
    27 Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.
    28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.
    29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.
    30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.
    So the ones who were asleep (dead) because of taking unworthily were they saved or lost? If you eat or drink unworthily you will be chastened as some of you (believers) are Paul said being sick, and some even died. But they hadn't realized it was a sin to partake unworthily nevertheless it was sin. They were turned over to the tormentors for chastening by God.

    All these show how one can be in sin and yet is still saved. God needs not chasten the unbeliever for they are not His. One sin takes you out of fellowship with God He will not even hear your prayers except to confess sin.
    • Psalm 66:18, "If I regard wickedness in my heart, the Lord will not hear."
    • Proverbs 1:28-29, “Then they will call on me, but I will not answer; They will seek me diligently, but they shall not find me, 29 Because they hated knowledge, And did not choose the fear of the Lord.
    • 1 John 1:9, "If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."
    If you have one sin in your heart that is your life one sin God won't hear you until you confess that sin. But when we confess the known sins as 1 John 1:9 says He cleanses us from all unrighteousness (unknown sins). One thread of wickedness a sin we commit not realizing it is sin brings us to a point where we commit a sin we know and when confessed all is forgiven.
     
  15. revmwc

    revmwc Well-Known Member

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    Matt 18
    32 Then summoning him, his lord *said to him, ‘You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me. 33 Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?’ 34 And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him. 35 My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.”

    Just as Paul says about the man in 1 Corinthians 5 turn him over to the torture satan for tdestruction of the flesh that the spisit might be saved. ot the two in 1 Timothy 1:20 Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme. Clearly showing once saved always saved.




     
  16. revmwc

    revmwc Well-Known Member

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    Romans 11
    19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

    Israel was broken off because of unbelief, But if any of them believe and we know they have they will be grafted back in. Stand on our faith and we can reverance God. Those who fall into to sin and continue God will chasten and eventually be turned over to satan for destruction of the flesh, physical death, premature physical death.

    1 Cor 6
    9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified

    That is correct the unrighteous those who have never been made righteous by faith in Christ, never had Christ righteousness imputted to them will not inherit the kingdom of God. Romans 3:
    22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
    23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
    24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

    We receive Christ Righteousness by Faith it is imputed to us.2 Corinthians 5:21 - For he hath made him [to be] sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

    Philippians 3:9 - And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

    Romans 4:5 - But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

    Those unrighteous sinners will not inherit the kingdom. But the righteous sinner will, 23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. if OSAS is not true that one sin causes loss of salvation does it not? So that means crucifying Christ afresh to be re-saved doesn't it?
     
  17. revmwc

    revmwc Well-Known Member

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    Ezek 18

    21 “But if a wicked person turns away from all the sins they have committed and keeps all my decrees and does what is just and right, that person will surely live; they will not die. 22 None of the offenses they have committed will be remembered against them. Because of the righteous things they have done, they will live. 23 Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Sovereign Lord. Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live?

    24 “But if a righteous person turns from their righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked person does, will they live? None of the righteous things that person has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness they are guilty of and because of the sins they have committed, they will die.

    25 “Yet you say, ‘The way of the Lord is not just.’ Hear, you Israelites: Is my way unjust? Is it not your ways that are unjust? 26 If a righteous person turns from their righteousness and commits sin, they will die for it; because of the sin they have committed they will die.


    How do they die which death? Physical death could apply, Temporal death definitely applies to the righteous person who turns and commits sin, Operational death most assuredly for those who are saved and continue in sin. A. No production in time. 1. James 2:26, "For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also."


    DEATH The Bible lists seven different deaths

    1. Physical death. A. Believer: The soul and the spirit leaving the body. 1. Philippians 1:21, "For me to live is Christ, and to die is gain." 2. 2 Corinthians 5:8, "We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord." B. Unbeliever: The soul leaving the body. 1. Luke 17:22, "And He said unto the disciples, The days will come, when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see it."

    2. Spiritual death. A. We are born spiritually dead, but physically alive. The moment the baby gasps its first breath of air, he gets his soul. The minute the soul hits the old sin nature, which is acquired from the father, he dies spiritually. Jesus Christ was always spiritually alive. He became spiritually dead, bearing our sins in His humanity, but it wasn't for His own sin. He had no personal sin or old sin nature. 1. Ephesians 2:11, "Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands." 2. Romans 5:12, "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned." 3. Romans 6:23, "For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."

    3. The second death. A. Revelation 20:11-15. This is the last judgment. This is the perpetuation of spiritual death into eternity. 1. "And I saw a great white throne, and Him that sat on it, from whose face the Earth and the Heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."

    4. Positional death. A. This is identification with Christ in His deaths. 1. Romans 6:1-14, "What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that Grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with Him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of His death, we shall be also in the likeness of His resurrection: "Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For He that is dead is freed from sin. Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him: Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion

    over Him. For in that He died, He died unto sin once: but in that He liveth, He liveth unto God. Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord. Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof. Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God. For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under GRACE." 2. Colossians 2:13, "And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath He quickened together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses." 3. Colossians 3:13, "Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye."

    5. Temporal death. A. This is a believer out of fellowship. 1. Romans 8:6, 13, "For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace." "For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live." 2. Ephesians 5:14, "Wherefore He saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light." 3. 1 Timothy 5:6, "But she that liveth in pleasure is dead while she liveth." 4. James 1:15, "Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death." 5. Revelation 3:1, "And the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith He that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead."

    6. Operational death. A. No production in time. 1. James 2:26, "For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also."

    7. Sexual death. A. The inability to procreate. 1. Romans 4:17-21, "(As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom He believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were. Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be. And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sarah's womb: He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God; And being fully persuaded that, what He had promised, He was able to perform." 2. Hebrews 11:12, "Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable."



    1 Cor 9

    23 I do all things for the sake of the gospel, so that I may become a fellow partaker of it.

    24 Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but only one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may win. 25 Everyone who competes in the games exercises self-control in all things. They then do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable. 26 Therefore I run in such a way, as not without aim; I box in such a way, as not beating the air; 27 but I buffet my body and make it my slave, lest after I have preached (the Gospel) to others, I myself will not be disqualified from it.

    Paul stayed in subjection to ensure his eternal rewards were won. A soul winners, a Crown of Righteousness and many others. He doesn'tsn't want to gain only wood, hay and straw.

     
  18. revmwc

    revmwc Well-Known Member

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    Hebrews 6

    4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.


    A. Now we see those who were enlightened


    1. Those who have tasted of the heavenly gift,


    2. And were partakers of the Holy Ghost


    3. Those who have been saved


    4. Those who have received the gifts which the Holy Spirit gives to every believer


    5. Those who have the Holy Spirit indwelling in them


    6. It is impossible for these he says.

    So what is impossible?



    A. The whole point of this portion is speaking of growing into maturity which brings with it eternal rewards.


    1. So what happens after salvation?


    2. We are to grow in spiritual maturity


    3. Many of these Hebrews had failed to grow


    4. Many had fallen away from serving


    5. Many had even considered going back to Judaism.


    6. So could they be restored well the writer in Chapter 5 and verse 12 says yes.


    7. Verse 14 they can take in meat


    8. Strong doctrinal teaching belongs to the mature.


    Hebrews 5:

    12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.

    13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.

    14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.
     
  19. revmwc

    revmwc Well-Known Member

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    Gal 5

    4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace


    4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

    5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.

    6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.

    The effects of Grace can't be prevelant for those who trust in the law to save them. Paul's point don't let the bondage of the law affect the benefits of Grace in life. they hinder your growth, they hinder your life and the great things we receive from Grace no longer are effectual in our lives.


    Heb 2

    1 For this reason we must pay much closer attention to what we have heard, so that we do not drift away from it. 2 For if the word spoken through angels proved unalterable, and every transgression and disobedience received a just penalty, 3 how will we escape if we neglect so great a salvation?

    After it was at the first spoken through the Lord, it was confirmed to us by those who heard,


    A. The solemn warning has gone out to all who have received Christ


    1. The truth seen here in Hebrews shows us the truth of the Superiority of Christ to angels.


    2. Because of that we are to give earnest heed to the truths of scripture.


    3. Why are we to do this in order that we don’t slip back or past the truth?


    4. It is one thing to intellectually accept what the word says and say we follow some specific doctrine.


    5. It is entirely different to totally practice faith


    6. Earnestly heeding it in our heart as the truth and thus becoming a Christian.


    B. All who don’t believe or reject it will receive the recompence of it.


    1. Those who don’t believe the truth


    2. Those who flirt with the truth and don’t fully believe


    3. The promise of recompence will be carried out in full.


    4. Those who have died without salvation will receive the recompence of unbelief’s reward.


    5. That is their eternal reward will be the Lake of Fire because they rejected Christ


    6. Those who are rejecting right now will also receive that same recompence if they fail to believe and fail to exceedingly heed the word of God.


    C. As the Gospel is, which is called salvation


    1. The Gospel which is opposite of the law


    2. The Law is the showing forth of the condemnation


    3. The Gospel declared by Christ.


    4. The law shows our shortfalls


    5. While the Gospel brings us nearer to our becoming New by Christ


    6. The Gospel has been confirmed by those who first heard it we might say.


    7. The Gospel is firm and stable


    8. Thus the writer speaks of those who heard Christ as passing it on to them


    1 Corinthians 10:

    12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.

    13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.


    Those who think they stand firm take heed, God provides a way not to fall when Temptation comes. Noy fall and give in to temptation. That is by the examples we have in scripture as well as scripture and prayer to keep from falling into sin and out of the filling of the Spirit, when we sin.
     
  20. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Matt 18


    21 Then Peter came to Him and said, “Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? Up to seven times?”

    22 Jesus said to him, “I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven. 23 Therefore the kingdom of heaven is like a certain king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants. 24 And when he had begun to settle accounts, one was brought to him who owed him ten thousand talents. 25 But as he was not able to pay, his master commanded that he be sold, with his wife and children and all that he had, and that payment be made. 26 The servant therefore fell down before him, saying, ‘Master, have patience with me, and I will pay you all.’ 27 Then the master of that servant was moved with compassion, released him, and forgave him the debt.


    32 Then summoning him, his lord *said to him, ‘You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me. 33 Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?’ 34 And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him. 35 My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.”



    True - because
    "The wages of sin is death" Rom 6:23
    "The soul that sins it shall die" Ezek 18:4
    "The second death" Rev 20 is that debt/punishment that will be applied to the lost, the wicked and it is the only death that the saints do not die - because Christ pays our debt for us.



    1 Cor 5 does NOT say 'hand him over to torturer'
    1 Cor 5 does NOT say "until he should repay all"
    1 Cor 5 is not a "settling of accounts" before God - the final judgment.
    Paul and satan are not partners in anything
    Satan does not get paid on God's behalf
    2 Cor 7 says that same person - disfellowshiped returns in repentance to the body of Christ. paid nothing.
     
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