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The Biblical Basis for some Catholic Distinctives

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Deadworm, Jul 10, 2018.

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  1. One Baptism

    One Baptism Active Member

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    'paid in full', yes. "Blotted out", no:

    Acts 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

    Acts 3:20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:​

    Calvary is the Altar of Sacrifice, it is Passover (spring feast):

    1 Corinthians 5:7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:
    It was not the fall feasts. It was not the Most Holy Place. Jesus Christ was not even anointed as High Priest until Pentecost, Acts 2:1-3,33; Psalms 133:1-3; Revelation 5:6, etc. The actual Day of Atonement did not even begin until 1810 years after Stephen was stoned (AD 34, exactly 3 1/2 years after Jesus ascended, AD 31, as per Hebrews 2:3; Romans 15:8; Daniel 9:24-27, "confirm"), as per Daniel 8:13-14,16, Revelation 9:13-15, 10:6, 14:6-112, etc. When Jesus ascended from Mt. Olivet, He went to the Holy Place, as seen in Revelation 1:9-20, 2:1, Revelation 4-5, etc.

    God judges the righteous and the wicked, see Ezekiel 9, see also:

    Ecclesiastes 3:17 I said in mine heart, God shall judge the righteous and the wicked: for there is a time there for every purpose and for every work.

    Ecclesiastes 12:13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.

    Ecclesiastes 12:14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.​

    And many other such texts.
     
    #21 One Baptism, Jul 15, 2018
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2018
  2. One Baptism

    One Baptism Active Member

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    Why would you teach that? Where is the scripture for that? Notice:

    Scripture says, that when a being or person dies:

    Ecclesiastes 12:6 Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern.​

    Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.​

    This verse makes no distinction between the righteous and the wicked. Therefore:

    Question - Where do the wicked go when they immediately die according to your theology, where the beasts? Do they enter Heaven, where God is, which you must believe according to Ecclesiastes 12:7? Do you know that is how the spiritualist reads it?​

    Notice please:

    Genesis 2:7 LKB - And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

    Genesis 2:7 HOT Translit. - 2:7 waYiytzer y'hwäh élohiym et-häädäm äfär min-häádämäh waYiPach B'aPäyw nish'mat chaYiym way'hiy häädäm l'nefesh chaYäh

    Genesis 2:7 HOT - וייצר יהוה אלהים את־האדם עפר מן־האדמה ויפח באפיו נשׁמת חיים ויהי האדם לנפשׁ חיה׃​

    Genesis 2:19 And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.

    Genesis 2:19 HOT Translit. - waYitzer y'hwäh élohiym min-häádämäh Käl-chaYat haSädeh w'ët Käl-ôf haSHämayim waYävë el-häädäm lir'ôt mah-Yiq'rä-lô w'khol ásher yiq'rä-lô häädäm nefesh chaYäh hû sh'mô​

    Genesis 2:19 HOT - ויצר יהוה אלהים מן־האדמה כל־חית השׂדה ואת כל־עוף השׁמים ויבא אל־האדם לראות מה־יקרא־לו וכל אשׁר יקרא־לו האדם נפשׁ חיה הוא שׁמו׃​

    The bible makes no distinction between the 'nefesh chayah' of man (good or evil) or beast in the matter of receiving or giving up the breath (spirit) of life from God:

    Man:

    Job 33:4 The Spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life.​

    Beast:

    Genesis 6:17 And, behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath of life, from under heaven; and every thing that is in the earth shall die.

    Genesis 7:15 And they went in unto Noah into the ark, two and two of all flesh, wherein is the breath of life.

    Genesis 7:22 All in whose nostrils was the breath of life, of all that was in the dry land, died.

    Revelation 16:3 And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.

    Revelation 16:3 GNT TR και ο δευτερος αγγελος εξεχεεν την φιαλην αυτου εις την θαλασσαν και εγενετο αιμα ως νεκρου και πασα ψυχη ζωσα απεθανεν εν τη θαλασση
    Man & Beast (again; Greek):

    Genesis 2:7 so-called LXX - καὶ ἔπλασεν ὁ θεὸς τὸν ἄνθρωπον χοῦν ἀπὸ τῆς γῆς καὶ ἐνεφύσησεν εἰς τὸ πρόσωπον αὐτοῦ πνοὴν ζωῆς, καὶ ἐγένετο ὁ ἄνθρωπος εἰς ψυχὴν ζῶσαν.

    Genesis 2:19 so-called LXX - καὶ ἔπλασεν ὁ θεὸς ἔτι ἐκ τῆς γῆς πάντα τὰ θηρία τοῦ ἀγροῦ καὶ πάντα τὰ πετεινὰ τοῦ οὐρανοῦ καὶ ἤγαγεν αὐτὰ πρὸς τὸν Αδαμ ἰδεῖν, τί καλέσει αὐτά, καὶ πᾶν, ὃ ἐὰν ἐκάλεσεν αὐτὸ Αδαμ ψυχὴν ζῶσαν, τοῦτο ὄνομα αὐτοῦ.​

    Notice:

    Ecclesiastes 3:19 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.

    Ecclesiastes 3:20 All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.​
     
  3. One Baptism

    One Baptism Active Member

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    Look at how the Bible even uses the English word "soul":

    The Bible speaks of soul as in the totality of the dust + breath in either man or animal:

    And levy a tribute unto the LORD of the men of war which went out to battle: one soul of five hundred, [both] of the persons, and of the beeves, and of the asses, and of the sheep: Numbers 31:28

    Numbers 31:28 HOT Translit. - wahárëmotä mekheš layhwäh mëët an'shëy haMil'chämäh haYotz'iym laTZävä echäd nefesh mëchámësh haMëôt min-ädäm ûmin-haBäqär ûmin-hachámoriym ûmin-haTZon

    Numbers 31:28 HOT - והרמת מכס ליהוה מאת אנשׁי המלחמה היצאים לצבא אחד נפשׁ מחמשׁ המאות מן־האדם ומן־הבקר ומן־החמרים ומן־הצאן׃​

    Numbers 31:28 so-called LXX - καὶ ἀφελεῖτε τέλος κυρίῳ παρὰ τῶν ἀνθρώπων τῶν πολεμιστῶν τῶν ἐκπεπορευμένων εἰς τὴν παράταξιν μίαν ψυχὴν ἀπὸ πεντακοσίων ἀπὸ τῶν ἀνθρώπων καὶ ἀπὸ τῶν κτηνῶν καὶ ἀπὸ τῶν βοῶν καὶ ἀπὸ τῶν προβάτων καὶ ἀπὸ τῶν αἰγῶν· (<--- the so-called LXX adds 'goats' with sheep)

    Cows [beeves, bovine], asses and sheep also are "souls".

    Is this an isolated case, or is this noted through all of scripture? It is throughout scripture:

    Acts 17:25 KJB -Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;

    Job 12:10 KJB - In whose hand is the soul of every living thing, and the breath of all mankind.

    Job 12:10 HOT Translit. - ásher B'yädô nefesh Käl-chäy w'rûªch Käl-B'sar-iysh

    Job 12:10 HOT - אשׁר בידו נפשׁ כל־חי ורוח כל־בשׂר־אישׁ׃

    Job 12:10 so-called LXX - εἰ μὴ ἐν χειρὶ αὐτοῦ ψυχὴ πάντων τῶν ζώντων καὶ πνεῦμα παντὸς ἀνθρώπου;
    Leviticus 22:11 KJB - But if the priest buy any soul with his money, he shall eat of it, and he that is born in his house: they shall eat of his meat.

    Leviticus 22:11 HOT Translit. - w'khohën Kiy-yiq'neh nefesh qin'yan Kaš'Pô hû yokhal Bô wiyliyd Bëytô hëm yokh'lû v'lach'mô

    Leviticus 22:11 HOT - וכהן כי־יקנה נפשׁ קנין כספו הוא יאכל בו ויליד ביתו הם יאכלו בלחמו׃

    Leviticus 22:11 so-called LXX - ἐὰν δὲ ἱερεὺς κτήσηται ψυχὴν ἔγκτητον ἀργυρίου, οὗτος φάγεται ἐκ τῶν ἄρτων αὐτοῦ· καὶ οἱ οἰκογενεῖς αὐτοῦ, καὶ οὗτοι φάγονται τῶν ἄρτων αὐτοῦ.​

    See Joshua 10, in every instance where it is written that Joshua destroyed "all the souls that were therein" (all "souls"; HOT Translit. "nefesh" and HOT "נפשׁ"- referring to men and animals/beasts):

    "...he utterly destroyed, them, and all the souls that were therein..." Joshua 10:28

    "...he smote it with the edge of the sword, and all the souls that were therein; he let none remain in it..." Joshua 10:30

    "...and smote it with the edge of the sword, and all the souls that were therein..." Joshua 10:32

    "...smote it with the edge of the sword, and all the souls that were therein he utterly destroyed that day..." Joshua 10:35

    "... smote it ... and all the souls that were therein; he left none remaining, according to all that he had done to Eglon; but destroyed it utterly, and all the souls that were therein." Joshua 10:37

    "And he took it, and the king thereof, and all the cities thereof; and they smote them with the edge of the sword, and utterly destroyed all the souls that were therein; he left none remaining..." Joshua 10:39

    "... he left none remaining, but utterly destroyed all that breathed, as the LORD God of Israel commanded." Joshua 10:40

    "... just as Joshua did to Jericho, so he did to those cities, "And they utterly destroyed all that was in the city, both man and woman, young and old, and ox, and sheep, and ass, with the edge of the sword." Joshua 6:21

    "... just as Joshua did to Haxor, so he did to those cities, "And they smote all the souls that were therein with the edge of the sword, utterly destroying them: there was not any left to breathe: and he burnt Hazor with fire." Joshua 11:11
     
  4. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    The mark of the beast has NOTHING to do with Sunday worship, but is one calling Antichrist their Lord and God now, and no real Christian will do such a thing!
     
  5. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Jesus died in my palce, and ALL of my sins were washed and covered by his blood, and he is my advocate before the father, so how can he deny Himself?
     
  6. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Jesus stated the thief was to be with him in paradise that very day, and paul saw Himself as departing to go to be with jesus, and not just into the grace, correct?
     
  7. One Baptism

    One Baptism Active Member

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    Sins "covered", "washed", "forgiven", "remitted", is not sins "blotted out", otherwise they would not need to be presently "covered".
     
  8. One Baptism

    One Baptism Active Member

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    No. You choose to ignore the context, and the whole of scripture on the subject, and including the accidental typographical exclusion of a single 'comma', when all other such places declare to you, what the pattern is for it.

    Read the context of Luke, the 'thief' said:

    Luke 23:42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.​

    When Jesus died, he had not yet received the kingdom, and had not yet ascended to the Father in Paradise:

    John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.​

    When Jesus ascended he had not yet receoived the kingdom. Jesus is now about to receive the kingdom:

    Matthew 25:14 For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods.

    Luke 19:12 He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return.

    Isaiah 13:5 They come from a far country, from the end of heaven, even the LORD, and the weapons of his indignation, to destroy the whole land.

    Daniel 7:13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.

    Daniel 7:14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

    Isaiah 62:3 Thou shalt also be a crown of glory in the hand of the LORD, and a royal diadem in the hand of thy God.

    Isaiah 62:4 Thou shalt no more be termed Forsaken; neither shall thy land any more be termed Desolate: but thou shalt be called Hephzibah, and thy land Beulah: for the LORD delighteth in thee, and thy land shall be married.

    Isaiah 62:5 For as a young man marrieth a virgin, so shall thy sons marry thee: and as the bridegroom rejoiceth over the bride, so shall thy God rejoice over thee.
    Paul said it was at the "day of the LORD", after his resurrection, that he would "ever be with the LORD", not a moment before, for his "departing" was in death, to sleep in the grave, as he himself said:

    1 Corintihans 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,​

    1 Thessaslonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

    2 Timothy 4:8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.​

    Do you care about facts, do you care about truth? Do you care about what Jesus actually said?
     
  9. One Baptism

    One Baptism Active Member

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    As brother BobRyan would say, "You are quoting you," again.

    Last days is "deception".

    Jesus warned you:

    Matthew 24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

    Mark 13:5 And Jesus answering them began to say, Take heed lest any man deceive you:​

    The "man of sin" is already present, and been here for a long time:

    2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
    It was foretold:

    Daniel 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.​

    Tell me then, what "times and laws", "of the most High" have been changed?

    It happened before, and is happening now (Ecclesiastes 1:9, 3:15):

    Ezekiel 8:16 And he brought me into the inner court of the LORD'S house, and, behold, at the door of the temple of the LORD, between the porch and the altar, were about five and twenty men, with their backs toward the temple of the LORD, and their faces toward the east; and they worshipped the sun toward the east.
    Again:

    Revelation 14:6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,

    Revelation 14:7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

    Revelation 14:8 And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.

    Revelation 14:9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,

    Revelation 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

    Revelation 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

    Revelation 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.​
     
  10. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    God remembers my sins no more, correct? salvation was paid in full and finished by Jesus on the Cross, correct?
    God sees me in christ just as sinless as jesus, correct?
     
  11. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    The placement of the comma there as the SDA claims that it should be, has no reputable Greek scholar endorsement to it? Did you know that?
     
  12. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    The man of Sin has yet to appear, as Jesus will slay Him at his second coming, 2 Thessolonians 2:8
     
  13. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    You are the one being deceived by a False prophetess though!
     
  14. One Baptism

    One Baptism Active Member

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    God has books in Heaven that are opened to be read (Daniel 12:1, etc), correct?

    One thing does not negate the other thing.

    Bought does not = Brought, correct? Christ Jesus laid the Cornerstone, Himself, at Calvary, correct, and Jesus said in three days (2 Peter 3:8) I will raise the temple correct? Jesus went to Heaven into the Holy Place at His ascension from the Mt. Olivet, correct? Jesus had to perform the antitypical dutied in the Holy and Most Holy Place, correct?

    There are two things, not one, and they do not negate each other.

    King Saul was given a new heart and was turned into another man, correct? Ananias and Sappira had been filled by the Holy Ghost, correct? Having the "earnest" is not the same as the fullness, correct?
     
  15. One Baptism

    One Baptism Active Member

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    The "man of sin" has already appeared, and has already been "revealed". Jesus will indeed slay this at His second Advent. Do not read the prophetic text as if the events therein all happen in the same day, week, month or ever year. 2 Thessalonians 2 covers from AD Paul unto the end, for Paul already told them in 1 Thessalonians, see 2 Thesssalonians 2:5.
     
  16. Deadworm

    Deadworm Member

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    PRAYING TO THE SAINTS

    Protestants accept the Apostles' Creed as an important expression of the apostolic faith. This Creed contains this affirmation: "I believe in the Communion of Saints," but evangelicals are generally ignorant of what this doctrine entails. So Catholics want Baptists to receive this teaching from God's Word:

    (1) "Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses... let us run with perseverance the race that is set before us (Hebrews 12:1)."

    Protestants miss the point here by reading 12:1 as if it merely said, "Seeing that we have been preceded by so great a cloud of witnesses..." This misreading can be dismissed on 2 grounds:
    (a) In Hebrews "martyres" always means "eyewitnesses." So the deceased saints in chap. 11 are perceived as living spectators who witness our struggles as we compete in the spiritual race of our earthly lives.
    (b) The image in 12:1 is that of a great heavenly arena of the deceased saints in the clouds who are spectators watching us run our spiritual race below, cheering us on, and bringing us aid. They don't just precede us; they "surround" us.

    (c) The context of chap. 12 makes it clear that we now have access to these spectator saints:

    "But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem...to the assembly of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven (12:22-23)."

    By running our race in open view of the living dead saints, we have actually "come" to "the city of the living God" Or as Jesus puts it, "the kingdom of God has come upon you" and is "in your midst (Luke 11:22; 17:21)."

    (2) As part of the Communion of Saints, the saints in heaven remain a vital part of the body of Christ and they pray for us and our access to them makes it profitable to ask them to pray for us:

    The 24 elders fell before the Lamb, each holding...golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints (Revelation 5:8; see also 8:3-4)."

    But it is not the saints who answer our prayers (including Mary), but rather God who hears intercessory prayer, both theirs and ours. For Catholics praying to saints in no way undermines Christ's status as our unique mediator between God and humanity.

    From my research and observation, Catholics experience many miraculous healings in response to their prayers to the saints. By contrast, miracles seen comparatively rare in response to the prayers of many evangelicals.
     
  17. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    God saves us eternally, as the blood of jesus was applied towards all of our sin debt, past/present and future, and were all paiud in full.
    IF God has any saved person go to hell sue to losing their salvation, then all of us will go there too!
     
  18. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    the man of Sin has not yet appeared, as the Seconfd Coming has not yet happened!
     
  19. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
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    I don't know where you are getting that! Personally I don't see a need for any denomination in Christianity but this is a world of men (a fallen world) so this is what we get. I don't have to tell you we have 2 primary commandments set apart by Christ....both emphasize love. So if we are constantly in flux about what church we go to or what political party we belong to...:oops:
     
  20. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    We need to at least belong to a church that teaches and preaches to the real Gospel of Jesus!
     
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