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The Biblical Basis for some Catholic Distinctives

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Deadworm, Jul 10, 2018.

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  1. One Baptism

    One Baptism Active Member

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    The Seventh-day Adventist is the protestant movement, and, [Emphatically] "No." I do not accept the "Apostles Creed", as it has errors in it.

    The King James Bible is the preserved word of God in English and is the final authority in all matters of faith and practice.

    The only "saints" (Holy Ones) I pray to is the Heavenly Father, the Son (Jesus) and Holy Ghost. Even specifically to the Father in Heaven, in the name of Jesus by/through the Holy Ghost. Everything and everyone else from highest seraph and cherub to lowest mote in the sunbeam is never to be prayed (prayer) to.
     
    #41 One Baptism, Jul 23, 2018
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  2. Ginnyfree

    Ginnyfree Member

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    I love this part of your post: "James precludes the view that in itself belief and trust in Jesus as your Savior qualifies as true faith: "Show me your faith apart from works and I by my works will show you my faith (2:18)." faith without works is dead. It ia fine to have an intellectual understanding of Christianity, but if you still ignore the little old man who needs a bit of help crossing the street at a busy intersection, have no time for your own children and haven't told your wife lately that you love her, well by your lack of works, you can pretty much see that whatever you call "faith" is stagnant. Love grows the more use it. Grow some today! God bless. Ginnyfree.
     
  3. Ginnyfree

    Ginnyfree Member

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    But what about the Revelation of St. John? Rev. 12:1 "And a great sign appeared in Heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars." You can see several things right away from this single verse, the woman is alive and in Heaven, she is wearing a crown made of stars and that she has a rule there given her by the crown, she is to be honored for it. She also is clothed with the sun something no ordinary human could possibly survive, so it is obvious she is in a glorified state of being. The moon under her feet also has a significance that the lesser lights of the physical heavens are beneath her, she is superior to them.
    I would add that our God is the God of the living and not of the dead. You are correct in that she did die but she is not dead now, but in Heaven, glorified by her Son and honored there as its Queen. That's what the crown means. It is the Word of the Lord as it is in the Apocalypse. I hope you can see this. God bless. Ginnyfree.
     
    #43 Ginnyfree, Jul 23, 2018
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  4. Wesley Briggman

    Wesley Briggman Active Member
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    What is the RCC distinctive of being born again to become a child of God - salvation?

    Jhn 3:3, 7 KJV 3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. ... 7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
     
  5. Ginnyfree

    Ginnyfree Member

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  6. Ginnyfree

    Ginnyfree Member

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    You have some really interesting points of view, but I have issues. Here's just one -
    As far as I know, Jesus was anointed in the Temple when He was brought to be circumcised. It is part of the ritual. A little oil, a little wine, a string, salt on the lips, etc. But don't take my word for it, trust the Lord's own Word: Luke 2:25-32 "Now there was a man in Jerusalem whose name was Simeon. This man was righteous and devout, awaiting the consolation of Israel and the Holy Spirit was upon him. It had been revealed to him by the Holy Spirit that he should not see death before he had seen the Messiah of the Lord. He came in the Spirit into the temple; and when the parents brought in the child Jesus to perform the custom of the law in regard to him, he took him into his arms and blessed God, saying: 'Now, Master, you may let your servant go in peace, according to your word, for my eyes have seen your salvation which you prepared in sight of all the peoples a light for revelation to the Gentiles and glory for your people Israel.'"
    There ya go. Simeon called the Infant Jesus the Messiah, which mean anointed. As for His Royal Priesthood, it is eternal in that He was a priest before He came to us and remained one while He was with us and then after He Ascended into Heaven He remained our High Priest. It isn't an office conferred by men, but part of who He is. You are a priest forever in the order of Melchizidek. Hebrews 7:17. You could take the time to read the Chapters of Hebrews that clearly explains the Priesthood of Christ. St. Paul is very thorough. Read Chaps. 7-10. It is too much to quote here. I'll trust you with it. God bless. Ginnyfree.
     
  7. Ginnyfree

    Ginnyfree Member

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    Hell is real. It is eternal. Only Saints go straight to Heaven. Here's an interesting factoid for you - "“Of the 1,850 verses in the New Testament that record Jesus’ words, 13 percent of them deal with the subject of eternal judgment and hell. In fact, Jesus spoke more frequently about hell than He did about heaven.”
    — Robert Jeffress, How Can I Know?
    Only in Christ Jesus can we hope for salvation.
    God bless. Ginnyfree.
     
  8. One Baptism

    One Baptism Active Member

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    Read the following:

    https://www.baptistboard.com/thread...roman-raiders-of-the-ark.109391/#post-2432873

    https://www.baptistboard.com/thread...roman-raiders-of-the-ark.109391/#post-2432875

    If you do not read the above, then I have some questions for you in regards Revelation 12. Is the woman pregnant in Heaven, yes or no? Is the Great Red Dragon also in Heaven in vs 3? When the woman is no longer pregnant is she in Heaven, or does she flee into the wilderness for 1,260? Is she persecuted by the Dragon in vs 17? Where?

    Revelation is given in symbols. Roman Catholicism reverses Genesis by allegorizing it, and in Revelation with over-literalizing it.
     
  9. Ginnyfree

    Ginnyfree Member

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    Wow! This is fun! Thanks a bunch. I just found this place today. Thank you for all the good stuff. :) God bless. Ginnyfree.
     
  10. One Baptism

    One Baptism Active Member

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    It is why I posted all the verses about "sleep".

    Again see:

    God: Genesis 2:17 - surely die; devil: Genesis 3:4 - not surely die

    Who do you believe?


    [1] This thread is about the state of the dead, as given in scripture (KJB).

    [2] A sub-related topic is hell/hellfire and heaven.​

    They are connected. What you believe about the first, affects what you believe about the second.

    Ecclesiastes 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

    Ecclesiastes 9:6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.

    Ecclesiastes 9:10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.

    Job 14:10 But man dieth, and wasteth away: yea, man giveth up the ghost, and where is he?

    Job 14:12 So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.

    Job 14:14 If a man die, shall he live again? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come.

    1 Thessalonians 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.​

    Here are some quick resource tools and video material to begin with:

    Death:







    http://www.pearltrees.com/awhn/the-truth-about-death/id3509450

    http://www.sundaylaw.net/studies/truelife/immortality/reformat.htm

    http://www.aloha.net/~mikesch/luther-tyndale.htm

    http://biblelight.net/luther-tyndale.htm

    http://biblelight.net/index_11.htm

    http://biblelight.net/death.htm

    http://biblelight.net/witch_of_endor.htm

    http://biblelight.net/gotl.htm

    http://biblelight.net/hell.htm

    http://biblelight.net/gates.htm

    http://biblelight.net/prison.htm

    http://biblelight.net/Souls-under-altar.htm

    http://biblelight.net/JP2-in-heaven.htm

    http://www.pickle-publishing.com/papers/immortality.htm

    http://www.pickle-publishing.com/papers/soul-and-spirit.htm

    http://www.pickle-publishing.com/papers/depart-and-be-with-christ.htm

    https://www.truthaboutdeath.com/

    https://www.ghosttruth.com/

    https://amazingdiscoveries.tv/

    https://amazingdiscoveries.tv/c/2/Total_Onslaught_-_English/

    https://amazingdiscoveries.tv/media/135/222-the-mystic-realm-of-death/

    https://secretsunsealed.org/misunderstood-texts-on-the-state-of-the-dead-digital-download/

    https://www.amazingfacts.org/media-library/read/c/1/t/free-book-library#studymore

    https://www.amazingfacts.org/media-library/read/c/3/t/storacle-lessons#studymore

    https://www.amazingfacts.org/media-library/read/c/2/t/bible-study-guides#studymore

    https://www.amazingfacts.org/media-library/study-guide/e/4987/t/are-the-dead-really-dead-

    https://www.amazingfacts.org/media-library/storacle/e/5334/t/the-witch-of-endor

    https://www.amazingfacts.org/media-library/book/e/48/t/spirits-of-the-dead

    https://www.amazingfacts.org/media-library/book/e/4/t/absent-from-the-body

    http://www.worldincrisis.org/br/Bible Readings for the Home Circle.pdf

    Conditionalist Faith of Our Fathers Volume 1
    http://documents.adventistarchives.org/Books/CFOOF1966-V01.pdf

    Conditionalist Faith of Our Fathers Volume 2
    http://documents.adventistarchives.org/Books/CFOOF1965-V02.pdf

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZfQtbnoFoqo

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BpmguXwfjOU

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Dm8oQSpaRQ

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8sSErkPoyjg

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z1Km5QwkEzo

    [Wikipedia; "Conditional Immortality"] - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conditional_immortality

    Is the Virgin Mary Dead or Alive?
    https://www.pearltrees.com/s/file/preview/174330695/Mary English.pdf

    Hellfire:



    http://www.pearltrees.com/awhn/the-truth-about-hell-hellfire/id3509461

    https://www.amazingfacts.org/media-library/study-guide/e/4988/t/is-the-devil-in-charge-of-hell-

    https://www.amazingfacts.org/media-library/storacle/e/5335/t/cities-of-ash

    https://www.amazingfacts.org/media-library/book/e/30/t/hell-fire--a-twisted-truth-untangled

    https://www.amazingfacts.org/media-library/book/e/71/t/the-rich-man-and-lazarus

    https://www.amazingfacts.org/media-library/book/e/43/t/remember-lot-s-wife

    [Wikipedia; "Annihilationism"] - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annihilationism

    Heaven:



    https://www.isheavenforreal.com/

    https://www.isheavenforreal.com/resources/read/e/29/t/heaven--is-it-for-real-

    A: [sleep, asleep, sleepeth] Deuteronomy 31:16; 2 Samuel 7:12; Job 3:13, 7:21, 14:12; 1 Kings 1:21, 2:10, 11:21,43, 14:20,31, 15:8,24, 16:6,28, 22:40,50; 2 Kings 8:24, 10:35, 13:9,13, 14:16,22,29, 15:7,22,38, 16:20, 20:21, 21:18, 24:6; 2 Chronicles 9:31, 12:16, 14:1, 16:13, 21:1, 26:2,23, 27:9, 28:27, 32:33, 33:20; Job 14:12; Psalms 13:3; Matthew 27:52; John 11:11-13; Acts 7:60, 13:36; 1 Corinthians 15:6,18,20,51; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-15; 2 Peter 3:4; [awake] Job 14:12; Psalms 17:15; Isaiah 26:19; Daniel 12:2; John 11:11-13; [grave/bed] Job 17:13; Psalms 139:8; Luke 17:34; [fathers and prophets are dead] John 6:49,58, 8:52,53; Acts 2:29,34, 13:36; Hebrews 11:4,13,16,40

    B: [knowing nothing] Genesis 27:4, 45:28; Ruth 1:17; Job 3:17-19, 7:8-10, 14:21, 21:32; 2 Kings 22:20; 2 Chronicles 34:28; Psalms 6:5, 28:1, 31:17, 88:4,10,11, 115:17, 143:7, 146:4; Ecclesiastes 9:4,5,6,10; Isaiah 14:11, 38:18; [reserved] 2 Peter 2:9; [He goes to prepare a place, so that when He comes again, 2nd Advent, He will raise us and receive us] John 14:2-3

    C: [grave/s, sepulchre/s, tomb/s, pit/s, hell [ie Hb: sheol; Gr: hades; grave]] Genesis 23:6, 35:20, 37:35, 44:29,31, 50:5; Exodus 14:11; Numbers 16:30, 19:16,18; Deuteronomy 34:6; Judges 8:32, 1 Samuel 2:6, 10:2; 2 Samuel 3:32, 4:10, 17:23, 19:37, 21:14, 22:6; 1 Kings 2:6,9, 13:22,30,31, 14:13; 2 Kings 9:28, 13:21, 21:26, 22:20, 23:6,16,17,30; 2 Chronicles 16:14, 21:20, 24:25, 28:27, 32:33, 34:4,28, 35:24; Nehemiah 2:3,5, 3:16; Job 3:17-19,22, 5:26, 7:8-10, 10:19, 11:8, 14:12-14,21, 17:1,13,16, 21:13,23-32, 24:19, 26:6, 30:24, 33:22; Psalms 5:9, 6:5, 18:5, 28:1, 30:3, 31:17, 35:7, 49:14,15, 55:15, 86:13, 88:3,4,5-12, 89:48, 94:13, 115:17, 116:3, 139:8, 141:7, 143:7; Proverbs 1:12, 5:5, 7:27, 9:18, 15:11,24, 23:14, 27:20, 30:16; Ecclesiastes 6:6, 9:10; Song of Songs [Solomon] 8:6; Isaiah 5:14, 14:9,11,15,19, 22:16, 28:15,18, 38:10,18, 53:9, 57:9, 65:4; Jeremiah 5:16, 8:1, 26:23, 20:17; Ezekiel 26:20, 31:15-17, 32:18,21-27, 37:12,13, 39:11; Hosea 13:14; Amos 9:2; Jonah 2:2 [<- figurative, typological]; Nahum 1:14; Habakkuk 2:5; Matthew 8:8, 11:23, 23:27,29, 27:52,53,60,61,64,66, 28:8; Mark 5:2,3,5, 6:29, 15:46, 16:2,3,5,8; Luke 8:27, 10:15, 11:47,48, 23:53,55, 24:1,2,9,12,22,24; John 5:28, 11:31,38, 12:17, 19:41,42, 20:1-4,6,8,11; Acts 2:29,34, 7:16, 13:29,36; Romans 3:13; 1 Corinthians 15:55; Revelation 1:18, 11:9, 20:13,14

    L: [2nd death from which there is no life, nor resurrection, nor return - annihilation] Psalms 9:17; Matthew 5:22,29,30, 10:28, 18:9, 23:15,33; Mark 9:43,45,47; Luke 12:5; 2 Thessalonians 1:9; James 3:6; Revelation 2:11, 20:6,14, 21:8

    M: [sin/sinners gone forever, cut off, perished, no more, destroyed, passed away, etc] Job 20:26,29, 31:2-3; Psalms 7:9, 9:17, 11:6, 21:9, 37:10, 37:20, 37:28,38, 68:2, 69:28, 75:8,10, 92:7,9, 104:35, 106:18, 112:10, 145:20; Proverbs 2:22, 10:25,28,30, 12:7, 13:9, 14:11, 24:20; Ezekiel 18:4, 18:20; Isaiah 13:9, 25:8, 66:17,24; Nahum 1:10; Obadiah 1:16; Zephaniah 1:2-3; Malachi 4:1; Matthew 10:28; John 3:16; Romans 6:23; Hebrews 6:8; James 1:15; 2 Peter 3:10; Revelation 7:17, 20:9, 21:4
     
  11. One Baptism

    One Baptism Active Member

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    I said "anointed as HIgh Priest".

    Reading still seems to be an issue for you.
     
  12. Ginnyfree

    Ginnyfree Member

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    I'm only talking about the one verse. It is simple and very easy to see the meanings meant. The are various senses of Scriptures. Some things are literal and some things allegorical, anagogical, etc. The time frame is not chronological in the passage. St. John wrote his Apoclyspe on the Isle of Patmos, long after Mary had left his side. He took her to his home at Calvary and took care of her until she died because Jesus had charged him with this task as His last dying wish. John knew she was dead, but in the Vision, he sees her alive and in Heaven and the year is approximately 100 AD. John is an old man and Mary had died before he was exiled to Patmos. He witnessed that event as well as her Assumption. But don't take my word it, you have God's Word. You can chose to ignore it, but I can't. God bless. Ginnyfree.
     
  13. Ginnyfree

    Ginnyfree Member

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    Do you really expect anyone to read/watch all this horrible stuff? You're off the charts. Nice try though. Can't give a straight answer, then try a avalanche of spam and nonsense. God bless. Ginnyfree.
     
  14. One Baptism

    One Baptism Active Member

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    When was it in doubt?

    Depends on what you mean. Eternal torment and suffering? No. Eternally dead and gone (annihilated forever) yes.

    See:

    The words used so far in describing the end of the wicked are Destroy, Blotted Out, Perished, Consumed Utterly, Cut Off, Dissolved, Melted, Devoured, Dead, Death, Hath Not Been, Not [any/no more], Burned Up, etc. [all taken from Strong's]:

    [Hebrew: machah מחה; meaning: to wipe out; blot out, obliterate; exterminated]
    [Hebrew: macah מסה; meaning: melt away, dissolve, liquefy, consumed]
    [Hebrew: muwg מוג; meaning: to melt, dissolve, faint, dissipate, flow away]
    [Hebrew: muwth מות; meaning: dead, death, kill, slain]
    [Hebrew: da`ak דעך; meaning: extinguished, to go out, put out, dry up, made extinct, quenched]
    [Hebrew: caphah ספה; meaning: to be swept away, destroyed, consumed]
    [Hebrew: shachath שחת; meaning: destroyed, corrupted, ruined, decayed]
    [Hebrew: parar פרר; meaning: break apart, frustrate, split, splinter to pieces, shatter, cracked up]
    [Hebrew: 'abad אבד; meaning: perished, vanished, destroyed, die, exterminated, blot out, put to death]
    [Hebrew: 'obed אבד; meaning: destruction, perish]
    [Hebrew: gava` גוע; meaning: to expire, die, death, breathe ones last, yield up the last breath]
    [Hebrew: cuwph סוף; meaning: to come to an end, to make an end, consume utterly, cause to cease, perish]
    [Hebrew: damah דמה; meaning: to cease, cause to cease, cut off, destroy, perish, to be undone]
    [Hebrew: charam חרם; meaning: to ban, destroy utterly and completely, exterminated, forfeited, divided, prohibited]
    [Hebrew: kalah כלה; meaning: consumed, determined, ended, finished, completely spent, at an end, perish, terminated, annihilation, complete destruction]
    [Hebrew: karath כרת; meaning: cut off, cut asunder, eliminate, kill, cut down]
    [Hebrew: kachad כחד; meaning: hide, conceal, cut down, make desolate, destroy, cut off, annihilate, efface]
    [Hebrew: bala` בלע; meaning: swallowed up, eaten up, to be ended]
    [Hebrew: balah בלה; meaning: to wear out, wear away, use up completely]
    [Hebrew: harac הרס; meaning: to tear down, break down, overthrow, destroy utterly]
    [Hebrew: show' שוא; meaning: devastated, ruined, laid to waste]
    [Hebrew: tsamath צמת; meaning: put an end to, cut off, destroy, exterminate, annihilate]
    [Hebrew: shamad שמד; meaning: destroyed, exterminate, annihilated, devastated]
    [Hebrew: naphal נפל; meaning: cast down, fail, waste away, overturn, knock down, fall]
    [Hebrew: 'akal אכל; meaning: to eat, devour, consume, to be wasted, destroyed]
    [Hebrew: chacal חסל; meaning: to consume, eaten up, bring to an end]
    [Hebrew: tamam תמם; meaning: to be complete, finished, at an end, consumed, exhausted]
    [Hebrew: 'oklah אכלה; meaning: object of devouring, consuming in judgment]
    [Hebrew: maqaq מקק; meaning: to decay, pine away, rot, fester, corrupt, dissolve]
    [Hebrew: guwz גוז; meaning: to pass over, pass away (of life), cut off]
    [Hebrew: yatsath יצת; meaning: to be burned up, to be made desolate, set on fire]
    [Hebrew: sĕrephah שרפה; meaning: burning, burn, burnt up throughly]

    [Greek: apollymi ἀπόλλυμι; meaning: to destroy, put out of the way entirely, abolish, put an end to ruin, render useless, kill, perish]
    [Greek: lyō λύω; meaning: loosed, undone, annul, dissolve, do away with, overthrow, break up]
    [Greek: katalyō καταλύω; meaning: dissolved, disunite, overthrow, render vain, bring to naught]
    [Greek: analiskō ἀναλίσκω; meaning: to expend, consume, destroy]
    [Greek: phtheirō φθείρω; meaning: to corrupt, to destroy, to perish, deprave]
    [Greek: diaphtheirō διαφθείρω; meaning: to corrupt, consume, destroy, kill, eat up, ruin]
    [Greek: aphanizō ἀφανίζω; meaning: to snatch away, take away, to make unseen, to destroy, consume, to make vanish]
    [Greek: phthora φθορά; meaning: corruption, destruction, perishing, decay]
    [Greek: kataphtheirō καταφθείρω; meaning: to corrupt, deprave, to destroy, perish]
    [Greek: ekkoptō ἐκκόπτω; meaning: hewn down, cut off or out]
    [Greek: apokoptō ἀποκόπτω; meaning: cut off, amputate]
    [Greek: nekros νεκρός; meaning: lifeless, dead, deceased, breathed ones last, inanimate, inactive]
    [Greek: nekroō νεκρόω; meaning: dead, put to death, to deprive of power, destroy the strength]
    [Greek: apothnēskō ἀποθνῄσκω; meaning: to die, perish, dry up, eternal death]
    [Greek: empi(m)prēmi ἐμπί(μ)πρημι; meaning: burn up, destroy by fire]
    [Greek: katakaiō κατακαίω; meaning: to burn up, consume by fire]​

    Other passages can also be looked at individually, and such terms like "unquenchable", "eternal", "for ever and ever", "everlasting", etc and their Biblical use in terms of the righteous and the wicked in context.

    Begin to ask, where are the all of the wicked [including Satan and his angels] standing in Revelation 20:8-9? Do they [the wicked] live there eternally or are they rather not completely destroyed so that the New Heaven and the New Earth may be created there, wherein dwelleth righteousness, peace, no more tears, pain or sorrow or sin or satan?

    "...and there was found no place for them." Revelation 20:11; Daniel 2:35
    See also - https://www.christianityboard.com/t...genesis-3-4-not-surely-die.26178/#post-414738
     
  15. One Baptism

    One Baptism Active Member

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    Saints indeed get to go to Heaven (eventually, but not yet), but in general, not "straight". Most presently sleep in the dust of the earth awaiting their resurrection at the Second Advent of Jesus.

    Is there anyone in Heaven (3rd; 2 Corinthians 12:2,4) now?

    Yes:

    Revelation 12:12 KJB Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.​

    [1] God the Father - Matthew 6:9, etc
    [2] The Son of God the Father (Jesus) - Revelation 1:10-20, 5:5-6 etc
    [3] the many hosts of Heaven (that travel from heaven to earth) (also includes 24 Elders (leaders of the unfallen worlds), 4 Living Creatures (representing all the unfallen worlds), all the unfallen worlds and inhabitants, and the unfallen creatures therein)
    [4] Enoch - Genesis 5:24; Hebrews 11:5
    [5] Moses - Matthew 16:28 - Matthew 17:1-13; Mark 9:1-13; Luke 9:27-37; Romans 5:14; Jude 1:9; 2 Peter 1:1-21
    [6] Elijah - 2 Kings 2:1-25; Matthew 16:28 - Matthew 17:1-13; Mark 9:1-13; Luke 9:27-37; 2 Peter 1:1-21
    [7] the firstfruits (resurrected at Jesus own resurrection) - Matthew 27:52,53; Isaiah 26:19; Ephesians 4:8; Psalms 68:18; 1 Corinthians 15:20,23
    [8] Holy Ghost by omniscience (Psalms 139:1-24; though He is down here on earth, having been sent; Psalms 133:1-3; Revelation 5:6; Acts 2:1-3,33, etc)​

    all other human beings are on earth, dead (sleeping, righteous and unrighteous, awaiting their respective resurrections) or alive (even if some are sleep walking, thus unrighteous, and the awake living, righteous/saints), and all the fallen angels, including Lucifer are down here on earth.

    That's everyone.

    There are multiple resurrections in the Bible, and a few translations.

    Two have been directly translated without seeing death, and a third group is coming:

    [01] EnochGenesis 5:24; Hebrews 11:5 KJB

    [02] Elijah2 Kings 2:1-23 KJB

    [03] Those saints alive at the 2nd Advent1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 KJB​

    There are many resurrections in the Bible, but of those that have taken place, only a few have not died again and were taken to Heaven:

    [01] Elijah raises the Widow of Zarephath's Son 1 Kings 17:17-24 KJB

    [02] Elijah raises the son of the Shunamite Woman2 Kings 4:18-37 KJB

    [03] A man and Elisha's Bones (14th miracle of Elisha, thus double the portion of Elijah) 2 Kings 13:20-21 KJB

    [04] The Valley of Bones, the Resurrected ArmyEzekiel 37:1-14 KJB

    [05] Jesus raises the Widow of Nain's SonLuke 7:11-17 KJB

    [06] Jesus raises Jairus's DaughterMatthew 9:18,19,23-26; Mark 5:22-24,35-43; Luke 8:41-42,49-56 KJB

    [07] Jesus raises LazarusJohn 11:1-47 KJB

    [08] Peter raises Tabitha [Dorcas] – Acts 9:36-42 KJB

    [09] Paul raises Eutychus – Acts 20:9-12 KJB

    [10] Moses (Permanently resurrected)Matthew 16:28, 17:1-12; Mark 9:1-13; Luke 9:27-36; John 11:25; 2 Peter 1:16-18; Romans 5:14; Jude 1:9 KJB

    [11] Select Group around the locality of Jerusalem, the "First Fruits" (Permanently resurrected)Psalms 68:18; Isaiah 26:19; Matthew 27:52,53; Ephesians 4:8 KJB

    [12] 'The Two Witnesses' (actually Law/Prophets (word of God) (Romans 3:21), represented in symbol by Elijah and Moses (more on this if necessary)) in symbol (truth died in the street in France (1793-1797, 3 1/2 day/years in the reign of terror) by Law, and was to be resurrected and glorified before all the people (Revelation 11:3-13) which took place in the proliferation of the bible being translated into every language on earth since then.

    [13] Jesus' ResurrectionMatthew 28:1-20; Mark 16:1-20; Luke 24:1-53; John 20:1-31; 1 Corinthians 15:20,23 &c KJB
    Also:

    E: [a special resurrection, some righteous, some wicked - to witness Christ coming in Power in Glory to fulfill His Word] Daniel 12:1-3,12; Matthew 26:64; Mark 14:62; Revelation 1:7, 14:13

    F: [[first great] resurrection [of the saints, just, life, before/at start of the 1000 years when Christ Jesus returns in Power and Glory], raised] 1 Samuel 2:6; Job 14:12-14, 19:26; Hosea 13:14; Matthew 22:31; Mark 12:18,23,25; Luke 14:14, 20:35,36; John 5:29a, 6:25,28,29,39,40,44,54, 11:24,25; Acts 4:2, 17:31,32, 23:6, 24:15a,21; Romans 6:5,8, 8:11; 1 Corinthians 15:12,13,16,20,21,23,29,32,35,42,43,52-55; Philippians 3:10,11; Colossians 3:3; 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17; 2 Timothy 2:18, 4:1; Hebrews 6:2, 11:35; Revelation 20:5b,6; [All the Holy "Clouds" of Angels [the "reapers"] with Him] Psalms 68:17, 104:3; Isaiah 66:15; Matthew 13:39,49, 16:27, 24:30, 25:31,51, 26:64; Mark 8:38, 13:27; Luke 9:26, 21:27; Acts 1:9-11; 1 Thessalonians 3:13, 4:16-17; Hebrews 1:7; Revelation 1:7, 12:7

    H: [[second great] resurrection [of the wicked, unjust, damnation, at the end/close of the 1000 years, when Christ Jesus and all of the Saints [then immortal] descend to Earth in New Jerusalem upon the Mount of Olives, and the Great White Throne Judgment takes place; Zechariah 14; Revelation 20]] John 5:29b; Acts 17:31, 24:15b; Revelation 20:5a

    I: [resurrection of unjust/damnation takes place on earth] Revelation 20:5,7-15​
     
  16. One Baptism

    One Baptism Active Member

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    Indeed, "eternal Judgment". See my previous citaitons. Gone forever.

    The Lake of Fire - Revelation 20, the annihilation of the wicked:

    Context:

    Please read these texts together, what do you see [ignore for a moment the chapter division]?

    Revelation 20:14 KJB - And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
    Revelation 20:15 KJB - And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
    Revelation 21:1 KJB - And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
    Revelation 21:2 KJB - And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
    Revelation 21:3 KJB - And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
    Revelation 21:4 KJB - And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
    Revelation 21:5 KJB - And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.​

    While Revelation 21:1 KJB states that in the New Heaven and New Earth there will be no more "sea" [water, the vast chasm of] as such we have now [due to the flood of Noah], with restless waves, separating friends and loved ones, but instead broad rivers, etc, as per:

    Isaiah 33:14 KJB - The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?
    Isaiah 33:15 KJB - He that walketh righteously, and speaketh uprightly; he that despiseth the gain of oppressions, that shaketh his hands from holding of bribes, that stoppeth his ears from hearing of blood, and shutteth his eyes from seeing evil;
    Isaiah 33:16 KJB - He shall dwell on high: his place of defence shall be the munitions of rocks: bread shall be given him; his waters shall be sure.
    Isaiah 33:17 KJB - Thine eyes shall see the king in his beauty: they shall behold the land that is very far off.
    Isaiah 33:18 KJB - Thine heart shall meditate terror. Where is the scribe? where is the receiver? where is he that counted the towers?
    Isaiah 33:19 KJB - Thou shalt not see a fierce people, a people of a deeper speech than thou canst perceive; of a stammering tongue, that thou canst not understand.
    Isaiah 33:20 KJB - Look upon Zion, the city of our solemnities: thine eyes shall see Jerusalem a quiet habitation, a tabernacle that shall not be taken down; not one of the stakes thereof shall ever be removed, neither shall any of the cords thereof be broken.
    Isaiah 33:21 KJB - But there the glorious LORD will be unto us a place of broad rivers and streams; wherein shall go no galley with oars, neither shall gallant ship pass thereby.

    [see also Ezekiel 47:1-6 KJB]

    Isaiah 33:22 KJB - For the LORD is our judge, the LORD is our lawgiver, the LORD is our king; he will save us.
    Isaiah 33:23 KJB - Thy tacklings are loosed; they could not well strengthen their mast, they could not spread the sail: then is the prey of a great spoil divided; the lame take the prey.
    Isaiah 33:24 KJB - And the inhabitant shall not say, I am sick: the people that dwell therein shall be forgiven their iniquity.
    The text also reveals that the "lake of fire", even the fiery "sea" will have passed away also [for to "pass away", is to "die"], for it was upon this old earth, look again [ignore the chapter break for a moment, just read it straight through]:

    Revelation 20:14 KJB - And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

    Revelation 20:15 KJB - And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

    Revelation 21:1 KJB - And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
    In scripture, a "Sea" = "Lake" [whether of water, fire, etc]:

    Luke 5:1 - "the lake of Gennesaret" [see "sea of Chinnereth" [Numbers 34:11 KJB], [see also "Chinnereth" [Deuteronomy 3:17; Joshua 19:35 KJB]] or "sea of Chinneroth" [Joshua 12:3 KJB], or "of Gennesaret" [Matthew 14:34; Mark 6:53 KJB]; Matthew 8:27; Mark 4:39,41 KJB uses the word "sea" and John 6:1 says, "sea of Galilee, which is the sea of Tiberias".

    The very word "lake" in the Koine Greek in Revelation 20:14,15 is λιμνην [limnen].

    G3041 [only used in the Koine Greek of the NT, I didn't find it in the (so-called) LXX either]

    λίμνη limnē
    Total KJB Occurrences: 10

    lake
    , 10

    Luke 5:1-2 (2), 8:22-23 (2),33;

    Revelation 19:20, 20:10,14-15 (2), 21:8
    See also the alternate word for "sea":

    G2281 [its also in the (so-called) LXX, in the very places of the "sea of Chinnereth" [Numbers 34:11,12 (so-called) [LXX], etc]

    θάλασσα thalassa
    Total KJB Occurrences: 95

    sea
    , 93

    Mat_4:15, Mat_4:18 (2), Mat_8:24, Mat_8:26-27 (2), Mat_8:32, Mat_13:1, Mat_13:47, Mat_14:24-26 (3), Mat_15:29, Mat_17:27, Mat_18:6, Mat_21:21, Mar_1:15-16 (3), Mar_2:13, Mar_3:7, Mar_4:1 (3), Mar_4:39, Mar_4:41, Mar_5:1, Mar_5:13 (2), Mar_5:21, Mar_6:47-49 (3), Mar_7:31, Mar_9:42, Mar_11:23, Luk_17:2, Luk_17:6, Luk_21:25, Joh_6:1 (2), Joh_6:16-19 (4), Joh_6:22, Joh_6:25, Joh_21:1, Joh_21:7, Act_4:24, Act_7:36, Act_10:6, Act_10:32, Act_14:15, Act_17:14, Act_27:30, Act_27:38, Act_27:40, Act_28:4, Rom_9:27, 1Co_10:1-2 (2), 2Co_11:26, Heb_11:12, Heb_11:29, Jas_1:6, Jud_1:13, Rev_4:6, Rev_5:13, Rev_7:1-3 (3), Rev_8:8-9 (3), Rev_10:2, Rev_10:5-6 (2), Rev_10:8, Rev_12:12, Rev_13:1 (2), Rev_14:7, Rev_16:2-3 (4), Rev_18:17, Rev_18:19, Rev_18:21, Rev_20:8, Rev_20:13, Rev_21:1​

    red [sea], 2

    Act_7:36, Heb_11:29​

    Do you believe?

    Do you believe that the wicked will be at some point "ashes" by th fire/lake of fire?

    Malachi 4:3 KJB - And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.​

    Do you believe that this fire/lake of fire only burns up the 'body' unto "ashes"?

    Do you believe that something of the person [an immortal essence, or whatever] continues to exist after the 'body' is long gone as "ashes"?

    If so, how does this physical fire, bring any further 'never-ending' torments to this non-corpse [non-body] entity?

    Where do these wicked non-body [non-corpse] entities exist for and ever?

    Do you believe that Satan has a physical body? If no, how does the physical fire of Revelation 20 [etc] affect him and his angels? How, would he and they become "ashes" [Ezekiel 28:18 KJB]?

    Definition, please.

    How do you understand the words "2nd death" [definitionally]?

    From the scriptural perspective, based upon the definitions given to me in scripture, the 2nd death, is oblivion. A death from which there is no return to life, in any form whatsoever. It is a ceasing to be altogether.

    Is there torment leading up to this death?

    Absolutely, but as stated and shown before, the torment/suffering and the final ending, death, are two things, one limited in duration leading into the finality and eternity of the other.

    When I read "death" in scripture it means no life, at all.

    For instance, when speaking of the spiritual death, ie "dead in trespasses and sins" [Ephesians 2:1 KJB], it means there is no spiritual life whatsoever, not even a little. It is as without form and void of life as this world was in Genesis.

    Therefore, when I read of the second death, can you explain to me, how the wicked will have continued existance, by what means, and by what scriptural reasons?

    Did Jesus suffer [limited, though on a scale we cannot ever comprehend] and die for the sin of the world?
     
  17. One Baptism

    One Baptism Active Member

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    It is the Righteous who will eternally dwell with God, who is “a Spirit” [John 4:24 KJB], and “the Holy Spirit” the fullness of “fire” [Acts 2:3; Revelation 1:4; 4:5 KJB], who “baptize/s” with “fire” [Matthew 3:11; Mark 9:49; Luke 3:16 KJB], thus we will dwell with “everlasting burnings” [Isaiah 33:14 KJB], for God is a “consuming fire” [to sin and of “Love”] [Deuteronomy 4:24, 9:3; Hebrews 12:29; 1 John 4:8,16 KJB] and a “fire goeth before Him” [Psalms 97:3 KJB] which “shall devour before Him” [Psalms 50:3 KJB] and “he burned against Jacob like a flaming fire” [Lamentations 2:3 KJB], and for those whom He loves He is a “wall of fire round about” [Zechariah 2:5 KJB] and His “ministers a flame of fire” [Psalms 104:4; Hebrews 1:7 KJB] and His “tongue as a devouring fire” [Isaiah 30:7 KJB] His speech “fire” [2 Samuel 22:9; Psalms 18:8; Jeremiah 20:9; Acts 2:3; 2 Thessalonians 2:8 KJB], His “eyes … as a flame of fire” [Revelation 1:14, 2:18, 19:12 KJB], His “face as the sun” and His “feet a pillar of fire” [Matthew 17:2; 2 Corinthians 4:6; Revelation 1:15, 2:18, 10:1 KJB], for He is a “refiners fire” [Malachi 3:2 KJB] having a “throne of fire” [Psalms 89:36; Daniel 7:9; Ezekiel 1:26-28; Revelation 4:5 KJB], His Ten Commandments a “Fiery Law” [Deuteronomy 33:2; Ezekiel 28:14,16 KJB] and it is they who have the victory over sin who stand upon the sea of glass mingled with fire [Revelation 15:2 KJB], and will be as the burning bush which was not consumed [Exodus 3:3 KJB], for He is “Light”, even the Light of all.

    Do the scriptures teach the Annihilation of the Wicked in the 2nd Death?

    All darkness [shall be] hid in his secret places: a fire not blown shall consume him; it shall go ill with him that is left in his tabernacle. (Job 20:26)

    This [is] the portion of a wicked man from God, and the heritage appointed unto him by God. (Job 20:29)

    For what portion of God [is there] from above? and [what] inheritance of the Almighty from on high? (Job 31:2)

    [Is] not destruction to the wicked? and a strange [punishment] to the workers of iniquity? (Job 31:3)

    The wicked shall be turned into hell, [and] all the nations that forget God. (Psalms 9:17)

    Oh let the wickedness of the wicked come to an end; but establish the just: for the righteous God trieth the hearts and reins. (Psalms 7:9)

    Upon the wicked he shall rain snares, fire and brimstone, and an horrible tempest: [this shall be] the portion of their cup. (Psalms 11:6)

    Thou shalt make them as a fiery oven in the time of thine anger: the LORD shall swallow them up in his wrath, and the fire shall devour them. (Psalms 21:9)

    For yet a little while, and the wicked [shall] not [be]: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it [shall] not [be]. (Psalms 37:10)

    But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD [shall be] as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away. (Psalms 37:20)

    For the LORD loveth judgment, and forsaketh not his saints; they are preserved for ever: but the seed of the wicked shall be cut off. (Psalms 37:28)

    But the transgressors shall be destroyed together: the end of the wicked shall be cut off. (Psalms 37:38)

    As smoke is driven away, [so] drive [them] away: as wax melteth before the fire, [so] let the wicked perish at the presence of God. (Psalms 68:2)

    Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous. (Psalms 69:28)

    For in the hand of the LORD [there is] a cup, and the wine is red; it is full of mixture; and he poureth out of the same: but the dregs thereof, all the wicked of the earth shall wring [them] out, [and] drink [them]. (Psalms 75:8)

    All the horns of the wicked also will I cut off; [but] the horns of the righteous shall be exalted. (Psalms 75:10)

    When the wicked spring as the grass, and when all the workers of iniquity do flourish; [it is] that they shall be destroyed for ever: (Psalms 92:7)

    For, lo, thine enemies, O LORD, for, lo, thine enemies shall perish; all the workers of iniquity shall be scattered. (Psalms 92:9)

    Let the sinners be consumed out of the earth, and let the wicked be no more. Bless thou the LORD, O my soul. Praise ye the LORD. (Psalms 104:35)

    And a fire was kindled in their company; the flame burned up the wicked. (Psalms 106:18)

    The wicked shall see [it], and be grieved; he shall gnash with his teeth, and melt away: the desire of the wicked shall perish. (Psalms 112:10)

    The LORD preserveth all them that love him: but all the wicked will he destroy. (Psalms 145:20)

    But the wicked shall be cut off from the earth, and the transgressors shall be rooted out of it. (Proverbs 2:22)

    As the whirlwind passeth, so [is] the wicked no [more]: but the righteous [is] an everlasting foundation. (Proverbs 10:25)

    The hope of the righteous [shall be] gladness: but the expectation of the wicked shall perish. (Proverbs 10:28)

    The righteous shall never be removed: but the wicked shall not inhabit the earth. (Proverbs 10:30)

    The wicked are overthrown, and [are] not: but the house of the righteous shall stand. (Proverbs 12:7)

    The light of the righteous rejoiceth: but the lamp of the wicked shall be put out. (Proverbs 13:9)

    The house of the wicked shall be overthrown: but the tabernacle of the upright shall flourish. (Proverbs 14:11)

    For there shall be no reward to the evil [man]; the candle of the wicked shall be put out. (Proverbs 24:20)

    Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die. (Ezekiel 18:4)

    The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him. (Ezekiel 18:20)

    Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it. (Isaiah 13:9)

    They that sanctify themselves, and purify themselves in the gardens behind one [tree] in the midst, eating swine's flesh, and the abomination, and the mouse, shall be consumed together, saith the LORD. (Isaiah 66:17)

    And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh. (Isaiah 66:24)

    For while [they be] folden together [as] thorns, and while they are drunken [as] drunkards, they shall be devoured as stubble fully dry. (Nahum 1:10)

    For as ye have drunk upon my holy mountain, [so] shall all the heathen drink continually, yea, they shall drink, and they shall swallow down, and they shall be as though they had not been. (Obadiah 1:16)

    I will utterly consume all [things] from off the land, saith the LORD. (Zephaniah 1:2)

    I will consume man and beast; I will consume the fowls of the heaven, and the fishes of the sea, and the stumblingblocks with the wicked; and I will cut off man from off the land, saith the LORD. (Zephaniah 1:3)

    Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death. (James 1:15)

    And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. (Matthew 10:28)

    For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. (John 3:16)

    For the wages of sin [is] death; but the gift of God [is] eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. (Romans 6:23)

    But that which beareth thorns and briers [is] rejected, and [is] nigh unto cursing; whose end [is] to be burned. (Hebrews 6:8)

    But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. (2 Peter 3:10)

    And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. (Revelation 20:9)​

    Indeed, but Roman Catholicism doesn't really teach that in its internal dogmas and doctrines.

    He has.

    www.pearltrees.com/awhn
     
  18. One Baptism

    One Baptism Active Member

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    This verse:

    Revelation 12:1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:​

    In its proper context as stated earlier.

    Revelation 12:2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.

    Revelation 12:3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.​

    "Being with" while in Heaven. Is she literally standing on the Moon also?

    As you well know (but pretend not to know), there was no such verse divisions in the "originall greeke".
     
    #58 One Baptism, Jul 23, 2018
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2018
  19. One Baptism

    One Baptism Active Member

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    Only the honest hearted truth seeker.

    Just like a die-hard-hearted Romanist/Papist. That is your opinion that it is "horrible" and "stuff", rather than scriptural.

    Unfounded accusation, like you do previously in other forums.

    Nothing "try" about it. It is done, as they say.

    It was most straight, even to the heart. One of us works for 'dodge' and it is not I.

    Scripture citations and proper responses to that which you gave (being without evidences, only subjective apriori).

    He has.

    www.pearltrees.com/awhn
     
  20. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
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    Which one is that?
     
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