Dear BB:
Here are some thoughts on the specificity of the doctrine of election.
Question: Did God elect only nations or groups?
Answer: No.
Why?
1. To say yes would be illogical. If God only elected nations or groups then it would be possible that no one within that group or nation could or would be saved. In other words, everyone in the group/nation could be lost.
2. To say yes would be unscriptural. Here are examples of individual election:
John 13:18 I speak not of you all: I know whom I have chosen: but that the scripture may be fulfilled, He that eateth bread with me hath lifted up his heel against me.
Romans 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. (Paul includes himself, and individual, in this election)
1 Cor 7:20-22 Let every man abide in the same calling wherein he was called. Art thou called being a servant? care not for it: but if thou mayest be made free, use it rather. For he that is called in the Lord, being a servant, is the Lord's freeman: likewise also he that is called, being free, is Christ's servant.
2 Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.
The Christian calling is the historical ourworking of their election. And it is certain that we are called individually, then it is also certain that we are elected individually. Romans 11 is teaching that the elect remnant will be saved, within the elect nation. This is to ensure that some WILL be saved.
2 Timothy 1:9 says "Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,"
Calling is, biblically, the historical outworking of God's purpose and grace which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began--election. In 1 cor 7 we see a great illustration of this because the individual Corinthians were to remain in their each individual condition (married, or unmarried, slave or free) in which they were CALLED. Calling cannot be separated from their election.
RB
The Biblical Doctrine of Election: It is Specific
Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by ReformedBaptist, Sep 6, 2008.
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Where do you get the idea that election would or could cause that whole group to be lost. The whole world is who Christ died for and he is not willing that any perish. Those who are saved are those who believe and trust in Christ.
MB -
Those who perish do so against the sovereign will of God.
Since a Jew is unable to keep the law, unable to make sacrifice, his only hope is in the Messiah. A Jew who accepts Jesus as Messiah is no longer a Jew spiritually, he is in Christ. A Jew who rejects Jesus as Messiah is bound under the law and is accountable to do the works of the law. The law is still in effect. In order for the Abrahamic and Davidic promises to be fulfilled, God must elect a remnant from national Israel for his purpose. Jews who accept Jesus as Messiah can not be part of this election since they are part of the Body of Christ, separated from national Israel, under a better covenant. -
Those who are saved are indeed those who believe into Jesus Christ. However, your other comments are false and unscriptural.
I am elect. But I have nothing of which I can boast. I wasn't chosen by God because of foreseen faith, holiness, receptivity, repentence, or anything else in me that might cause God to choose me. He chose me freely of His own pleasure, will, and purpose. He set His love on me before I had done and good or evil. Yes, the Calvinist has something in which he can boast...as a Calvinist I boast in the Lord.
Your last sentence is ridiculous. Your confusing the choosing of a nation from with election unto salvation. And then you say they COULD not submit to the righteousness of God...which speaks of ability.
Let me suggest that you stop, think, and then reply. Otherwise what is coming out is looking quite nonsensical.
RB -
Those who perish do so against the prescriptive will of God. Nothing, absolutely nothing, happens apart from the secret or sovereign will of God (God's Decree). The secret will of God is not meant to be obeyed by men, but His prescriptive will is.
The secret things belong unto the LORD our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law. Deut 29:29
We are obligated to obey what God has revealed. But the secret things belong to the Lord.
And I would have loved to see you say what you typed out here to all the writers of Scripture, espeically the Apostle Paul, who as a Christian repeatedly attests to the fact that he is a Jew according to the flesh. lol
RB -
Here's an example: God has chosen the church and Israel and individual members to His purposes because, though not all believe (children of Israel, 5 foolish virgins, various churches like Laodicea in Rev 2-3, etal.), to all of them God has revealed His will and they try (successfully or unsuccessfully) to obey it. Paul could speak of the whole church of Corinth as "elect" though he had to know that there were unbelievers among them, right?
skypair
RB[/QUOTE] -
RB -
He says, if election were by nation, and not individually, then the whole nation would have to be saved, or none would be saved, meaning you and your entire country going to hell, because everyone in your country were not saved.
the bible says God is not willing for any to perish. But I have always asked those citing this verse to explain it, why are there people lost and going to hell. I have never seen this answered, and if it can not be answered properly by the person using it, then they are misusing the verse. Becuae the way it is always used it would mean all are going to heaven, saved or not.
So to you there are people Christ died for who got to hell, so that as far as that person in hell is concerned Christ died in vain?
Apparently you believe God has the flaw of being illogical, then so would His book reflect that illogic, we would have no need to read and seek understanindg if in fact scripture were illogical, written by an illogical God.
this is false. Just because we do not always understand all the works of God does not mean he is illogical. -
See, this is where we run into a "dead end," RB. We can't even talk about calling and election rationally because one of us defines them from a scriptural POV (me) and one of us uses them from a Calvinist POV (you). Why isn't "calling" to salvation and "election" to ministry/purpose? Why do you see calling and election to be to salvation? It's because you do not perceive soul and spirit. You just want God to "give" everything and man to "do" nothing in order to receive everything.
Please, what if Calvinism is the total fabrication of an unsaved, rebellioius (from Catholicism) man? Have you considered that possibility? What if Augustine was not "Christian" but merely a reformed hedonist? Have you considered that possibility? What if Luther was a man who was "possessed" with living the Christian life (sanctification from sin) but not with eternal justification? Sardis, "hath a name that liveth but art dead!" Do you even fathom that there is such a church? That it could exist today? That you might belong to it?
I "beseech you," CHOOSE God! Don't be one of those who claim "He chose me." Under your theology, He just might have chosen you like He chose Pharoah! To be hardened and to never perceive the truth in spite of the number of times "Moses" tries to reveal Him to you.
skypair -
Christ died for everyone's sin. ALL will be resurrected on account of Him. Whether to the Bema or to the GWT, they will be resurrected because their sin is paid for. The question in either case is "Are you reconciled with God?" That is, is your name/soul in the "book of life?" you won't get to the Bema if it is not -- you won't be saved at the GWT (despite that your sin has been "paid in full") if it is not.
The "sin" that CANNOT be forgiven is UNBELIEF! If you don't choose to believe God and His Provision, you will be forgiven of every other sin and still be lost.
skypair -
Perhaps I will consider the possibility that you don't know the Lord?
How about this: "Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity." 2 Tim 2:19
Now, get your strongest argument and take a wack at that. This is my foundation. This is where I stand.
RB -
Rom 10:1 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.
What does Paul mean here? Pauls prayer is that Israel might be saved? But Israel is God's chosen people. They are all elected to Salvation.
To say that all Jews are saved is indeed nonsensical
ReformedBaptist said:Ok...methinks you bumped your head. You didn't even address what I wrote. Re-read the Scriptures. When the bible is speaking of our calling it is speaking of our salvation.Click to expand...
ReformedBaptist said:You really ought to think about what you type before you type it. How, pray tell, can you possibly know what all calvinists and reformers believe. Futhermore, we are NOT all vessels of wrath before we are saved, but we are all in Adam, sons of disobedience. I refuse to accept your false and twisted understanding of Romans 9.Click to expand...
ReformedBaptist said:I am Jew. One is not a Jew who is one made of flesh, but the one is a Jew who is one who is made one in the spirit. Circumcision is of the heart. There is one holy and elect nation and always has been. Gentiles are not made into a new and separate nation, but are grafted into the commonwealth of Israel.Click to expand...
A Jew is a Jew by birth. Being grafted in does not make us Jews. It makes us part of the body of Christ. I am not under the Law but under grace.
ReformedBaptist said:I suggest studying old arguments against calvinism. They are much better than the ones your inventing. :laugh: If election is particular then the calvinist can boast? Huh? I don't know if I should stop and with my mouth agape or laugh. Your sentence contains so much nonsense is amazing it was typed out.Click to expand...
ReformedBaptist said:I am elect. But I have nothing of which I can boast.Click to expand...
ReformedBaptist said:I wasn't chosen by God because of foreseen faith, holiness, receptivity, repentence, or anything else in me that might cause God to choose me. He chose me freely of His own pleasure, will, and purpose. He set His love on me before I had done and good or evil. Yes, the Calvinist has something in which he can boast...as a Calvinist I boast in the Lord.Click to expand...
ReformedBaptist said:Your last sentence is ridiculous. Your confusing the choosing of a nation from with election unto salvation. And then you say they COULD not submit to the righteousness of God...which speaks of ability.Click to expand...
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Let me suggest that you stop, think, and then reply. Otherwise what is coming out is looking quite nonsensical.
RB[/quote]
I will never stop with the truth no matter what you think. What we don't understand is always foolishness, isn't it? -
Okay, I guess I might as well play "pile on the Cavinist" too.
I actually can see how one could come to the Reformed conclusions about scripture. Not that I agree that is the only view, but I can see how one could get there.
One of the inconsistencies I see, and I know you have heard this before, is why don't I just live in total abandon since what I do, what I believe, makes no difference as to my election or non-election? If I'm elect I've got it made, regardless. If I'm not elect, I'm doomed, regardless.
So, why not just eat, drink, and be merry, if I believe Calvinism is true?
(I'm really not being sarcastic here) -
All Scripture From TNIV
lbaker said:Okay, I guess I might as well play "pile on the Cavinist" too.
I actually can see how one could come to the Reformed conclusions about scripture. Not that I agree that is the only view, but I can see how one could get there.
One of the inconsistencies I see, and I know you have heard this before, is why don't I just live in total abandon since what I do, what I believe, makes no difference as to my election or non-election? If I'm elect I've got it made, regardless. If I'm not elect, I'm doomed, regardless.
So, why not just eat, drink, and be merry, if I believe Calvinism is true?
(I'm really not being sarcastic here)Click to expand...
But let's get specific with Scripture regarding your contention that Calvinists must be antinomians.
Romans 6:1,2 :"What shall we say then?Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase?By no means!We are those who have died to sin;how can we live in it any longer?"
Romans 6:15 :"What then?Shall we sin because we are not under the law but under grace?" -
Hi Donna;
donnA said:I think you missed it.
He says, if election were by nation, and not individually, then the whole nation would have to be saved, or none would be saved, meaning you and your entire country going to hell, because everyone in your country were not saved.Click to expand...
donnA said:the bible says God is not willing for any to perish. But I have always asked those citing this verse to explain it, why are there people lost and going to hell. I have never seen this answered, and if it can not be answered properly by the person using it, then they are misusing the verse. Becuae the way it is always used it would mean all are going to heaven, saved or not.Click to expand...
Joh 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
Joh 3:20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
Man does not choose the light not because he can't but because he loves the darkness. The only choice man has is to rebel. When man comes to God it isn't because of anything the man does because Salvation is all of God. God isn't willing that any should perish but men do because they will not come to the light and that is man's condemnation. It is sin that separates us from God and always has been. As long as man rebels against God he will be lost. This should not be considered to be a choice between the two. When we come to God it is soley the work of God. Man cannot perform the work of God on his own. We are drawn by God, we are convinced by God, we are convicted by God, we know of God because of God. We do not seek God nor could or would we with out knowing there is a God. Therefore Salvation is all of God. As I said before man's only choice is to stay in darkness.
God does see that the light is shown us anyway so that we have no excuse. We may even believe the truth and still stay in darkness because some can't handle the conviction. These are they who hold the truth in unrighteousness.
Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
It isn't God's will that men are lost but it is the will of the men who are.
Here you express this same understanding;
donnA said:God's will in the verse mentioned is not Him willing everyone to be saved but is His willingness that everyone can be saved.
So to you there are people Christ died for who got to hell, so that as far as that person in hell is concerned Christ died in vain?Click to expand...
donnA said:Apparently you believe God has the flaw of being illogical, then so would His book reflect that illogic, we would have no need to read and seek understanindg if in fact scripture were illogical, written by an illogical God.
this is false. Just because we do not always understand all the works of God does not mean he is illogical.Click to expand...
MB -
Rippon said:It doesn't matter what you do or believe?Now that's absurd.First of all the Lord softens the hearts of His elect ones to believe.He gives them faith and repentance.
But let's get specific with Scripture regarding your contention that Calvinists must be antinomians.
Romans 6:1,2 :"What shall we say then?Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase?By no means!We are those who have died to sin;how can we live in it any longer?"
Romans 6:15 :"What then?Shall we sin because we are not under the law but under grace?"Click to expand... -
Ibaker,
You make a good point -- let's go back to the original reason for their sotierology -- how it was actually "crafted." I believe it is this: The early church (Catholic and Reform) baptized the "elect" into the kingdom shortly after birth. That was the point at which, following in the Catholic tradition (and, I believe, Augstine as well), one was forgiven of original sin, justified with God, and given into the kingdom of His Son.
So how does that work out in the Augustinian/Calvinist/Reform salvation paradigm? Well, there's no more any need to wring a decision (a "sinner's prayer," a "walk the aisle," a "rebaptism") out of anyone unto justification with God (And we do find that the early Calvie/Reform churches were dead set against "rebaptizing." It was an affront to the notion that they were already entered into the kingdom as infants).
Now that's a pretty big "hole" in sotierology, is you ask me. Fact, you think about it, were Calvin or Luther or any of them "rebaptized?" or was their justification/salvation in their Catholic baptism still? I guess they considered themselves to already be believers though they preached a whole new way to salvation. That kinda fits with their paradigm, too, doesn't it?
Anyway, NOW all that come into their kingdom are presumed to be "elect" and "indwelt"/"regenerated" already. Their "decisions" as already being "elect," thus, are about how they are going to live their lives now that they believe -- which affects sanctification but not justification else justification would be by "works."
The real truth in rebaptizing or believer's baptism is to show that been justified through personal death with Christ and personal resurrection of the Holy Spirit. Well, if one already has the Spirit, one is already justified through the blood of Christ. There is no need to be "rejustified" by choosing Christas Savior -- He already is!
Thw whole thing kinda reminds me of Acts 19 where believing disciples of John the Baptist learned about Christ, who converted, and then rebaptized in the name of Jesus. These disciples realized 2 things: 1) that their earliler baptism was to God but not through Christ and 2) it was incumbent on they themselves to put themselves into Christ rather than continue on in the gospel they first believed.
This is my view anyway. I'm sure there will be some come around to correct it right quick! :laugh:
skypair -
lbaker said:Okay, obviously I don't understand something here. I thought the basic idea was that nothing we did had any influence on our election or non-election. Is this incorrect?Click to expand...
RB -
lbaker said:Okay, obviously I don't understand something here. I thought the basic idea was that nothing we did had any influence on our election or non-election. Is this incorrect?Click to expand...
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rdwhite said:AMEN MB, AMEN.
Those who perish do so against the sovereign will of God.Click to expand...
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