I have. So far all the evidence presented is terribly shaky at best. I can see the impulse to believe such, but the alternate readings and alternate views I see at the same time seem much more sound and doctrinally more compelling as well. Even if I were to accept this conclusion, it is still so shaky as to be useless as a doctrinal foundation.
The Blood of Christ
Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by jbh28, Sep 14, 2010.
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Reminds me of my own personal belief that animals and humans could communicate before the fall (or maybe even up to the flood). Interesting speculation and not without some evidence, but by no means more than speculation based on certain assumptions and questionable readings of Scripture. -
As far as animals speaking, we know of at least two examples in the scriptures, the serpent speaking in the garden, and Balaam's ass. Now, I think Balaam's ass might have been a miracle.
But the study of serpents is very interesting. There are thousands of accounts of dragons in ancient history from civilizations all over the earth. I believe people were describing dinosaurs. Being a young earth creationist I believe dinosaurs lived with men in the past. But many of these accounts say these dragons could speak.
Oh, now you will laugh at me, all the while universities spend millions of dollars trying to communicate with animals such as the porpoise. And some claim communication is possible. But these same people will laugh if you say a dragon could speak.
Rev 13:11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.
This sounds fantastic, but I have seen a few very unusual and fantastic things in my life, I have learned to discount nothing. -
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To start with...
Equivocation fallacy: He uses "bloody" and "blood" in various ways without distinguishing when it is meant metaphorically, literally, or otherwise. Same with "alive". Yet he seems to think that these various meaning should all be tied together to form some conclusion.
Example: The Bible is a bloody book. Life is in the blood. The Bible is alive. Therefore the Bible has blood flowing throughout its pages and words.
Notice the switches from metaphorical to literal to metaphorical in order to reach his conclusion...and its not even clear if his conclusion is meant metaphorically or literally.
Fun counter-example: Pillows are light. I can't read without light. Thus I can't read with my pillow. Or...
Comedy makes me light-hearted. I can't read without light. Thus I can't read something unless it is comedy.
Now, if this sort of thing were just his intro and meant only to set the "feeling" of his book, then I probably wouldn't quibble with it too much. However, it appears that this reliance on equivocation in the use of these words is essential to his argument. So, while he may make some valid points. unless he does away with this equivocation,his overall argument can be considered unsound. -
Another central error to his reasoning is a fallacy of anachronism. He is attempting to apply a modern scientific understanding to statements made to a culture where such use of terms, concepts and analysis were foreign. So, to assume that statements like "the life is in the blood" can be subjected to scientific analysis is a fallacy of anachronism.
There were lots of other little fallacies, but I these two cover the bulk of the problems I saw. -
Heb 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.
This is where MacArthur makes a huge mistake. It was not enough that Jesus just die. He could have been strangled or drowned and died, but that would not atone for our sins. He had to shed his blood.
And it was not enough in the OT to simply kill an unblemished lamb for a sin offering. The high priest had to bring the blood into the Holy of Holies and sprinkle the blood before the mercy seat and on the mercy seat. If they had simply killed the lamb and poured it's blood on the ground, the Israelite's sins would not have been forgiven.
Heb 9:7 But into the second went the high priest alone once every year, not without blood, which he offered for himself, and for the errors of the people:
So, it was not just the life of the sacrificial lamb or the life of Jesus to be given, their blood was required for the forgiveness of sins. This is where MacArthur errs. -
While I might be willing to grant your general points about the need for shedding of blood, its when we come to your assertions about the sprinkling on the mercy seat that I really disagree. Hebrews shows many parallels between Christ's death and the OT sacrificial practices. However, your reasoning assumes that, if Christ's death parallels one part of the OT sacrificial practices, then it must also parallel all of it. Why do I say that your reasoning assumes this? Because no verse ever makes mention of either a mercy in heaven, that Christ takes His blood to heaven, or that He sprinkles it on the mercy seat. These conclusions can only follow from the assumption that if it is parallel in one regard then it is parallel in all regards.
Certainly, if such an assumption could be shown to be sound, then your conclusions would naturally follow. But such an assumption is both fallacious (it begs the question) and problematic (it doesn't address all the ways in which Christ's death and OT sacrificial practices are *not* parallel). Thats not to say that your conclusion is counter to Scripture (at least not that I can see), merely that it goes beyond what Scriptures says, and beyond what can reasonably be argued from Scripture. -
Heb 3:1 Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;
Now, there is one important difference between Jesus as our High Priest and those high priests in the OT. Those priests were sinners and had to first offer a sacrifice for their own sins before they could enter the Holy of Holies and offer a sacrifice for the people. Jesus did not have to do this because he was not a sinner.
The OT was a figure, a picture of the reality which is Christ Jesus our High Priest.
I see you trying to explain as a metaphor something which does not require this. The high priest in the OT had to enter in with real literal blood, and the scriptures say Jesus did the same thing.
Heb 9:12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
There is no reason to deny Jesus entered into the holy place with his real, literal blood unless a person wants to deny it for some reason. The scriptures say nothing whatsoever to believe this is speaking in a figurative way. -
Thus, the assumption of an exact and complete parallel between the two things is shown to be unwarranted.
Heb 3:1 Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;
Now, there is one important difference between Jesus as our High Priest and those high priests in the OT. Those priests were sinners and had to first offer a sacrifice for their own sins before they could enter the Holy of Holies and offer a sacrifice for the people. Jesus did not have to do this because he was not a sinner.
a. His taking His blood to heaven
b. Him sprinkling the mercy seat in heaven
One can only arrive at these conclusions by trying to make the parallel more exact than Hebrews makes it.
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Back in the 70s Hal Lindsay wrote a bunch of books claiming that life was brought to earth by aliens from other planets in the distant past. Is that possible? Yes. Is it probable? No.
He made several TV shows and he would always point to remarkable feats that were not easily explained. He would show the pyramids and explain that men at that time did not have the technology to build these structures. Then he would ask questions like, "Is it possible the ancient Egyptians were aided and helped by aliens who had advanced technology?" Go on YouTube you can probably find a few of his old shows. He was always asking "Is it possible?" And remarkably, people fell for this argument.
Well, anything is possible, but is it probable? No, the probability is that the Egyptians knew of some way to build the pyramids whether we know how they did it or not.
You can question anything in the Bible if you want to. Many scholars have questioned that Moses through God parted the Red Sea. One scholar wrote that the Red Sea was really the "Reed Sea" and only ankle deep, to which a preacher remarked, "Praise God! God drowned Pharaoh and all his army in ankle deep water!" :laugh: -
With that clarification, restart your analysis of my argument.
Actually, it may just be better to demonstrate what I mean by a possible and reasonable alternate reading of the passage in question. It may not come for a bit though. -
Show me one verse where it gives even the slightest impression that Jesus did not enter the holy place with his real literal blood.
Hebrews also warns against counting Jesus's blood as an unholy thing.
Heb 10:29 29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
The word blood is mentioned 20 times in the book of Hebrews, second only to the book of Leviticus which gives the directions for the sacrifices. It is always speaking of real literal blood. There is not one hint that it is ever speaking of anything but real literal blood.
And it is shown elsewhere:
1 Pet 1:18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
Are silver and gold real things? Yes, but in a sense they are not as real as Jesus's blood because they corrupt and eventually rot away. But Jesus's blood is incorruptable.
Matt 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
At the last supper they drank wine which was a picture of Jesus's blood which is shed for the remission of sins. It was not enough that Jesus simply die, he had to shed his real literal blood.
Eph 1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
Col 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: -
But let me just start from scratch and give a comprehensive explanation of an alternate take on this passage. I will try to get to it tomorrow.
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An alternate reading of Heb 9
We agree that it is clear that Heb 9 is comparing Christ's sacrifice with OT sacrificial practices.
However, there are many ways in which a comparison can be meant. These can be categorized in 3 general categories.
A. Two things can be compared which are not really related. This is done when say, comparing the wind and the Holy Spirit. The comparison is done to illustrate the way they are alike, but only in a very narrow sense. So, the HS and wind both go where they will and you can't see them directly but you see their effect. However, it is clearly silly to suggest that therefore the HS and the wind both mess up one's hair and both bring spiritual life, etc. etc. etc. They are clearly more different than they are alike.
B. On the opposite end is comparing two things which are almost identical and only differ in a few easily identifiable areas. For instance, comparing a blueprint to the layout of an actual building, or a detailed scale replica to the full sized object. In cases like these, the two things are nearly identical except in terms of specific details like size or 2D vs 3D. Once the specific differences are understood, one can give exact details about one object from the other - IOW, one could know exactly how to navigate a building from a good blueprint (assuming they knew the difference in scale).
C. A third sort of comparison falls between these two things. In this case, the two things being compared are related, but one is not an exact model of the other but is instead an analogue. In this case the similarities are extensive and non-metaphorical (as in case A), but the differences are also extensive and just as significant. So, for instance, comparing gills and lungs, a shadow and the form, an outline with the object. With these things, in the areas where they are similar the similarities are very informative and "real" (vs more metaphorical as in case A). However, unlike case B, the differences are just as striking and are generally not systematic. For instance, a shadow is excellent for determining the dimensions and outline of an object from one perspective, but is totally useless for helping us determine all the exact details of the object. The shadow and object are clearly related, but not in clearly definable ways.
You are viewing the comparison as more like case B. I suggest it is more like case C.
With me so far? -
My answer is no. I take the literal view where in my estimation it needs to be taken that way.
A literal 6 sidereal day creation.
A literal Virgin Birth.
A literal Death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ.
A literal visible and bodily return of Jesus Christ to earth.
A literal shedding of his literal blood which is in the heavenly but real and literal Holy Place.
Hebrews 9
12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
If the flesh and bone body of our High Priest which is in heaven is eternal why is it so difficult to believe that His precious blood is there as well?
HankD -
Do you at least understand the distinctions I am making? If so, do you grant that the distinctions are reasonable - not whether you agree yet with which one applies to Heb 9 but whether you grant that they are meaningful distinctions at all?
And since the question is not whether the comparison is literal, then the question of literal or not doesn't come into play in my analysis of Heb 9. We can skip over the whole question of whether Heb 9 is speaking of His literal blood because I agree with you that it is. The disagreement is over the type of comparison being made and what can be inferred from the comparison.
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Personally I believe the implication of Hebrews 9 is that his literal blood is indeed there.
That is why I asked the question about His literal flesh and bone body.
It is there in the heavenlies, He went into the Holy place in His literal body, why not with His literal blood as well?
As did the high priest of the mosaic law with the blood of bulls and goats as a figure which is (granted) by implication what Christ did.
You need not respond, this is just an explanation of why I believe the way I do and that I believe it is scriptural (by the implication of Hebrews 9) and to confirm your most recent question.
Thanks
HankD
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