Your post simply underscores which one of us has a great misunderstanding in ecclesiology, and it is not I. You arrive at your conclusions through tradition. They are not Biblical. You start with the OT and with John the Baptist when churches were not even in existence, for example. The little Scripture you do use is taken out of context. In a previous post you use an example of the "medieval church," which of course is some monstrosity drawn out of history, not the Bible. You have a great misunderstanding of ecclesiology for it is not based on the Word of God.
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The "CHURCH"
- Thread starter Earth Wind and Fire
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Throughout this thread, you have been given numerous passages which clearly describe the Church. Denying its existence does not compromise a well-studied Biblical position. This post is full of words & opinion, but lacks any Biblical support. God's Word is more than a collection of dictionary definitions of its individual words. Use the Scripture to interpret Scripture. God says that the church is the body of Christ & that we are all baptized into that body. I think I'll believe His Word over yours.
The church started at Pentecost. So this verse is irrelevant. Even so Jesus said that it was Christ himself what would be the foundation of every church. Compare with 1Cor.3:11.
And he did. He added daily to the First Baptist Church at Jerusalem daily. It was the only local church in existence at that time. Other local churches started soon after.
Where are you quoting from. Even the KJV states:
Then had the churches rest throughout all Judaea and Galilee and Samaria, and were edified; and walking in the fear of the Lord, and in the comfort of the Holy Ghost, were multiplied. (Acts 9:31)
He is dealing with a problem at the church at Corinth, and telling them how their church is founded. Do we have miracles, gift of healings, etc. in our churches today? The obvious answer is no. But their church did. And their church also had a foundation of the apostles that were alive at that time.
Put things in its context.
And Saul was consenting unto his death. And at that time there was a great persecution against the church which was at Jerusalem; and they were all scattered abroad throughout the regions of Judaea and Samaria, except the apostles. (Acts 8:1)
The only church that Paul persecuted was the church which was at Jerusalem He was saved shortly after that. That is the church that he is referring to.
Paul was writing to the Ephesians. How do you think the Ephesians understood what Paul was saying? He was writing to them, and to their church. Every Biblical church (like Ephesus) is a body of believers.
Christ loved the church at Ephesus. That is what he said.
As Christ loved the church at Ephesus so he loves every Bible-believing church who has Christ as its head, and the Bible as its foundation.
Christ needs to be preeminent, not only in the church at Colossus, but in every Bible-believing church.
Only in heaven we will all be gathered together as one assembly.
not applicable.
Again, not applicable as he is speaking about Israel and Israel's relationship with the Gentiles as a whole.
Not applicable. Speaking of an individual's responsibility to the weaker brethren.
It is written to the church at Ephesus and is a description of how they themselves make up a local church. Each one has a specific responsibility.
In the church at Ephesus. There is a wider application however.
Written to the church at Ephesus. As Christ is the head of that church, he is the head of every Bible-believing church/assembly.
A pastoral epistle. Paul tells Timothy that the Lord knows them that are his. He knows who are believers and who are pretenders.
We have commented on this verse already.
Doesn't speak of the local church.
This is a heavenly scene, and has nothing to do with the local church.
Again, another heavenly scene which has nothing to do with the local church.
Another heavenly scene which has nothing to do with the local church.
Another heavenly scene which has nothing to do with the local church.
Another heavenly scene which has nothing to do with the local church.
I have not ignored one verse. The many you have quoted at the end are non sequitor. They are totally out of context, red herrings, have nothing to do with this subject whatsoever. Why you even refer to them is beyond me. If you want to do a study on Revelation open another thread.
The word church means assembly. The sooner you learn that fact the better off you will be.
Do you hold that there are both wheat and tares in EVERY asembly of believers? Some are saved some not?
that there IS a number of all saved peoples on the earth is the true Church?
God has ONE Church Body, regardless if baptist/catholic/methodists etc
You are either a Christian, part of Hid bride/Body or you are not...
God has a Body a Bride a Church and A local assembly?
Do you see that the "Church" refers to ALL true Christians, that you can choose to be batised different modes, different membership requirements etc?
that You ARE a member of the "Church of God" even IF not ione of a local Church?
or are Christians ONLY known by God IF they membership a local assembly than?
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Go back to the definition of a church.
A local church is comprised of baptized regenerated members...
A person may at times fool man; but he cannot fool God. If he is unsaved, by default he is not a member. He may pretend but God knows them that are his. Even John knew about this problem:
They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us. (1 John 2:19)
Our church is small. The members of our church are all saved and baptized.
There is no true church. You can't even define one properly.
You fail to answer my questions. Church means assembly.
Where does this "true assembly" meet?
Who takes up the offering?
Who preaches?
Who are the deacons?
There may be an occasional person in the RCC that is saved. I would say that 99% of them are not. So yours is not a true church at all, even if such a monstrosity should exist.
It is this kind of teaching that has led to the WCC, the ecumenical movement, and in connection with the Charismatic movement will one day form the one worldwide church of the anti-christ.
[quote[You are either a Christian, part of Hid bride/Body or you are not...
God has a Body a Bride a Church and A local assembly?[/quote]
Every local church is a body of Christ. See 1Cor.11 and how it describes as every member making up a part of the body with each member having a specific function in the church at Corinth. There is no way that this could apply to any universal church.
If a believer is not a member of a local assembly is as disobedient to God as if he refuses to be baptized, or as if he refuses to pray. Both are commands of God.
[quotee]Do you see that the "Church" refers to ALL true Christians, that you can choose to be batised different modes, different membership requirements etc?[/quote]
No, and neither should you. It is impossible to have an unassembled assembly. How can you assemble something that cannot assembly? Where would this "Assembly" be? Who are the deacons? The whole concept is absurd.
I am a member of a local church; a part of the family of God.
When I got saved I became a child of God; I was born again; I became one of his children. Later on (two years later), I was obedient to him in baptism and joined a local church. It was a matter of obedience.
Every local church is a body of Christ. See 1Cor.11 and how it describes as every member making up a part of the body with each member having a specific function in the church at Corinth. There is no way that this could apply to any universal church.
If a believer is not a member of a local assembly is as disobedient to God as if he refuses to be baptized, or as if he refuses to pray. Both are commands of God.
[quotee]Do you see that the "Church" refers to ALL true Christians, that you can choose to be batised different modes, different membership requirements etc?[/quote]
No, and neither should you. It is impossible to have an unassembled assembly. How can you assemble something that cannot assembly? Where would this "Assembly" be? Who are the deacons? The whole concept is absurd.
I am a member of a local church; a part of the family of God.
When I got saved I became a child of God; I was born again; I became one of his children. Later on (two years later), I was obedient to him in baptism and joined a local church. It was a matter of obedience.[/QUOTE]
Once again... per the Scriptures..
God has only ONE true Church, Body/Bride of Christ
made up of saved peoples
God sees ONLY His people...period
Not First baptist First Free etc JUST true Christians
We SHOULD be members of local Church be water baptised NOT essential to being though part of the Church...
I do NOT hold to RC as being a true Gospel teaching group, false Gospel
Ditto for WoF and other heretical frindge groups inPentacostal movement
DO however see that the Lord can and does have save dpeoples in even those groups, as He will save them despite erronous teachings, just need to come out once saved!
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I find my answer in Matthew 16:18, where Christ promise to build his church, the one he is actually building right now.
Why confusion the simplicity of this verse?
Now, we may speak of local fellowships or even denominations.
But whoever is recognized by Jesus as belonging to his through faith is part of the church, despite denominational affiliations are the like.
Let's keep it simple.
Why confusion the simplicity of this verse?
Now, we may speak of local fellowships or even denominations.
But whoever is recognized by Jesus as belonging to his through faith is part of the church, despite denominational affiliations are the like.
Let's keep it simple.
Tom Butler
New Member
The church Jesus spoke of in Matthew 16:18 was the one already in existence, and it was the one he would build--which he did--in person.
And by the way, it was an assembly, not some nebulous fantasy that its advocates will go to the mat for, but can't tell you its purpose for existence.
The one already in existence? Where did you get that from?
It seems rather that Jesus shed his blood to establish the church (Eph 5), a new entity.
Tom Butler
New Member
Well, let's see.
Jesus chose the Twelve.
He ordained them. Mark 3
He sent them forth to preach. Mark 3
They baptized new converts.
They assembled and fellowshipped.
Jesus taught them Matthew 5, for one
He gave them a commission and marching orders (See Luke 10)
He gave them power over demons.
He gave them power to heal the sick.
He instructed his disciples on church discipline.
He gave them the keys to the kingdom (that is, the authority to declare the terms of entry into the kingdom).
They had the Lord's Supper.
They had the Holy Spirit (John 20:22)
They had a broader commission to include all nations (Matthew 28)
All of this during Jesus earthly ministry.
All of this before Pentecost.
My view is that when Jesus completed the selection of the Twelve, he had his church. He built his church from there.
BTW, TC, I'm surprised you've never heard of this view before. It's only been around for about 160 years.
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Didn't you or one of your local-church-only friends say that the Church began at pentecost?
Anyway, a more important question: That local church that Jesus built according to you, is it still in existence? Did the gates of Hell prevail against it?
That is one of the small differences between Tom and I. But it is a minor difference. Take a look at Scripture using Young's Literal Translation:
Christ did say he would build an assembly. Every assembly is his assembly, that is every assembly that is based on the Bible, whose head is Jesus Christ.
`And I also say to thee, that thou art a rock, and upon this rock I will build my assembly, and gates of Hades shall not prevail against it; (Matthew 16:18)
The first assembly was in Jerusalem, commonly known as the First Baptist Church at Jerusalem:
praising God, and having favour with all the people, and the Lord was adding those being saved every day to the assembly. (Acts 2:47)
--The Lord added daily to the local church in Jerusalem.
Then, indeed, the assemblies throughout all Judea, and Galilee, and Samaria, had peace, being built up, and, going on in the fear of the Lord, and in the comfort of the Holy Spirit, they were multiplied. (Acts 9:31)
--By the time Saul was saved and had stopped persecuting believers, the Bible declares that the assemblies ...had peace.
Note that it doesn't say The Church had peace, but the assemblies had peace. Or in other translations, "the churches...had peace." It is plural. There is no such thing as universal or invisible church. Ekklesia means assembly which can only mean local church, as every assembly is.
lilyvalley
New Member
The Church universal does exist even though some will argue about it.
Yet according to Scripture the shed blood of Christ is what purchased the church.
Besides, the presence of what you outlined above maybe present without the church.
Whatever happened to the future tense in Matthew 16:18: "I will build my church"?
Jesus' selection of these men is not what made the church the church.
Tom Butler
New Member
No, but it reproduced itself many times over. All local churches, by the way.
Tom Butler
New Member
Yes, Acts 20:28.
Let's take that verse apart.
Take heed therefore unto yourselves. Who are these people? They are the elders from the congregation at Ephesus, whom Paul summoned to Miletus.
And to all the flock Who is all the flock Paul is talking about?
Why,the ones over which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers.
Over which flock are they overseers? The one at Ephesus.
To feed the church God Which church? The one over which they were overseers and elders. The one at Ephesus.
which he hath purchased with his own blood. Which one has he purchased with his own blood? The Church of God over which the Holy Spirit made them overseers. The one at Ephesus.
If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck and looks like a duck....
Sorry, just couldn't resist. If I sat down and said to somebody, "I want to describe something to you." I went over the list you mentioned. What are the odds he would say, "Why, that's a church." Now, if I said, "well, no. I know it looks like a church, it has all the elements of a church, and it acts like a church; but it's not a church," I'd surely get a strange look.
At one time, I fell into the trap of trying to think of the church as a building. The reasoning is, you can start the building, but you really don't have a building until you've finished building it. But, the church is not a building. You have to establish a church before you can build it. Jesus had already established his church and was explaining to his disciples about the way he would build it.
Yes, it was.
Jesus spent three years building his church, training them, teaching them, displaying his power through them. This group was a traveling church at first, finally settling in Jerusalem.
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Tom Butler
New Member
Now lily, you're falling into the same pattern that some of our other posters are doing. You're making a flat unsupported statement.
You need to explain why you hold that view, and some scriptural support would help.
By the way-------no it doesn't.
See, otherwise we get into this endless Does, too; does not; does, too; no it doesn't; yes it does.
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