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The Closed Theism of Calvinism

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Van, Apr 12, 2011.

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  1. StefanM

    StefanM Well-Known Member
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    Are you implying that I am not intelligent? :laugh:

    In any case, I'm not sure it would matter here. Van has clearly established himself in the realm of unorthodoxy.
     
  2. StefanM

    StefanM Well-Known Member
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    Boettner is correct for that point, and it is correct to assume that the future is predestined. The future is indeed certain. However, it does not follow that because God knows the future with certainty that he directly caused all actions.
     
  3. annsni

    annsni Well-Known Member
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    So one "Calvinist" is the speaker for all?
     
  4. annsni

    annsni Well-Known Member
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    Why does "future is certain" = "predestined"? One is the end result of something and the other is the cause. They are very different. It's like saying "I will sleep tonight" and then saying that "Joe made me sleep tonight" - two totally different things.
     
  5. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    StefanM, what part of predestined did you miss? If God predestined our thoughts and our actions, exhaustive determinism, as presented by Boettner, then He is the author of sin.
     
  6. jbh28

    jbh28 Active Member

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    Who was that one Calvinist?
    Did you read what I said?
     
  7. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    How else, Ann, could the future be certain, unless it was predestined?
     
  8. StefanM

    StefanM Well-Known Member
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    The language I would use is that God foreordained the future. I would not say that God predestined the future in the sense you are using. The future is predestined, but the acts of moral agents contribute to this.
     
  9. J.D.

    J.D. Active Member
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    Van: Do you believe that Jesus is coming back some day?
     
  10. Gabriel Elijah

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    :laugh:---Of course not my dear brother! Very impressive answers! But 2 b honest I do fear Mr Van might have bitten off more than he can chew with this thread! Even if I do disagree with the guy more times than not---this has the potential to turn real ugly----real fast! Even webdoggie knows better than 2 take it this far---(I love ya web no offense intended!)-lol
     
  11. jbh28

    jbh28 Active Member

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    I have to say Van has done one thing very, very well here. He has given us a great example of a false dichotomy.

    does anyone know who said that?
     
  12. Allan

    Allan Active Member

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    Your logic in this is flawed, specifically in that you don't understand what omniscience entails, and that your assumptive 'necessity' of it making God the 'cause' of sin is lacks credibility.

    You seem to dismiss that ALL throughout church history (from the earliest church fathers writings) even up till present time, one of the main foundational doctrines of CHRISTIAN church (not just Calvinistic theology) has been the Omniscience (all knowingness of God). Non-Cals and Arminians has ALWAYS been in agreement with Cals regarding the general sense (not exhaustive sense you imply, whereby God is the causation of sin). The ONLY ones who hold to this view are Hyper-Calvinists.

    If the future is not certain then there is no guarantee of the promised future things which God has decreed to be in His word. Not just what He will do, but also what men will do. (that included that man would kill the Messiah of their own choice which God declared long before hand would happen) You seem to be functioning under the misconception that determining is exhaustive in that God caused man to do what he does, including sin. Determining can be both active (God choosing to act) and passive (meaning He allows man to continue doing what he chooses).. but all of these work in accordance to His will/plan - working all things (good and bad) together for His glory.

    You stand in a pagan view much like the Greeks and others who hold that the gods can not know all things.. only some small aspects and that is directly proportional to their actions and not the specific actions of men since that is unknown to them. The omniscience of God is a decidedly, historical, a pervasive view of the Christian doctrine that it is almost singularly unique to it (which includes the Jewish mindset as well)
     
    #32 Allan, Apr 12, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 12, 2011
  13. annsni

    annsni Well-Known Member
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    Hmmm - well, God is in the future, isn't He? Does He know man's choices? Yes, He knows the future for certain. :)
     
  14. Allan

    Allan Active Member

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    Actually there are actually 1 or 2 on the BB (one inparticular) who DO state just that. Just wait long enough and they will begin posting on here. However I am surprised that you have not read them posting on this subject since they are very open about it and posting of it.
     
  15. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    The future is foreordained but not predestined according to StefanM.

    Lets see what these words mean according to the dictionary: Gee my dictionary say to predestine is to foreordain. And then it says foreordain means predestine.

    So StefanM, please explain the distinction you are drawing as you seem to be using words in some special way.
     
  16. jbh28

    jbh28 Active Member

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    I thought Van was referring to this thread. Yes, I have read that from people and I definitely disagree as Scripture doesn't teach that.
     
  17. Allan

    Allan Active Member

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    How about, how has it been understood in christian history and how it is defined in the biblical context. That will give you a better grasp.
     
  18. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Thanks Ann for agreeing that since God knows the future exhaustively, it is predestined exhaustively, each and every thought and action of each and every creature. That makes God the author of sin.
     
  19. Gabriel Elijah

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    Why don’t you explain the Greek to us Van—maybe you could enlighten us!!! Ok ok—I apologize a head of time—I said I was gonna leave u alone—but I just couldn’t resist!
     
  20. jbh28

    jbh28 Active Member

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    PLEASE DON'T TEMP HIM!!!!

    Van has an agenda or a warp sense of logic. I'm going with agenda.
     
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