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Featured The conflicted Calvinist

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Skandelon, Feb 23, 2013.

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  1. Winman

    Winman Active Member

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    Look, even Christians have selfish motives. Every Christian wants to please God so that God is happy with him and blesses him. How is this one bit different from the unsaved man? None whatsoever.

    Are you telling me you have no self interest in obeying God whatsoever? Be honest and answer me.

    Just another false argument of Calvinism.

    Jhn 16:2 They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service.
     
    #41 Winman, Feb 24, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 24, 2013
  2. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
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    Opinionated arent you!:laugh:
     
  3. Winman

    Winman Active Member

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    Just being honest.

    It is not wrong to love ourself, Jesus told us to love God and to love others AS OURSELF. We work for rewards don't we? Isn't that a selfish motive?

    Luk 10:25 And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
    26 He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou?
    27 And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.
    28 And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.

    Doing right is not a sin. It is not a sin to tell the truth, and folks do not always tell the truth simply to tell themselves how good or great they are. Even unsaved people love others and do good, Jesus himself said so.

    Luk 6:32 For if ye love them which love you, what thank have ye? for sinners also love those that love them.
    33 And if ye do good to them which do good to you, what thank have ye? for sinners also do even the same.

    Jesus knows what real love is, and he said sinners love those that love them. Yes, it is greater to love those that hate you, but it is not sin to love those that love you, you SHOULD love those who love you. What kind of person does not love those persons who loves him?

    Jesus also knows what true good is, and Jesus said sinners can do good.

    But if you want to believe false arguments, that is your choice.
     
  4. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    I think you misunderstand freewill.
    It is not an uninfluenced decision as some think it is. I didn't just up and one day make the decision to believe with out intervention from God. I was first drawn and for a long time I was drawn before I was convinced and convicted. None of this happens to Calvinist before Salvation because according to there belief this would be pointless. They are just saved in a flash and with out ever hearing about Christ is the testimony of some. It does no good to have faith if faith does not save. It does not do good to hope because you will either be saved or you won't. Your participation is not required. Of course you have nothing to prove you are saved. You don't even have faith first and certainly cannot prove your own election that you mistakenly believe is unto Salvation. There isn't even one Gentile in scripture that was elect. At least I admit the truth I was adopted by God.
    MB
     
  5. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
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    Let me get this straight.....your questioning my salvation?
     
  6. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
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    :laugh: I am being honest
     
  7. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    No not at all. I'm questioning how it came about.
    MB
     
  8. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
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    You have read my testimony
     
  9. Winman

    Winman Active Member

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    Exactly. Those who believe in free will are almost always misrepresented by Calvinists. We do not believe a person can get saved without the grace of God.

    Paul asked in Romans 10 how any person could believe in Jesus unless he has heard of him, and then he asks how any person can hear of Jesus unless someone goes out and preaches Jesus. THIS is the grace of God that has appeared to all men, the Holy Scriptures and those men (and women) who go out and faithfully preach the word.

    Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
    14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

    No verse in all of scripture more directly addresses the question of how a person comes to believe in Jesus for salvation. Does Paul say a person must be supernaturally regenerated before he has the ability to believe? NO, and Paul NEVER says that anywhere in all of scripture. No, Paul simply implies that a person must HEAR about Jesus to be able to believe. But then Paul asks how they shall hear without a preacher? Again, no mention of supernatural regeneration, just that a preacher preach the gospel that man can believe.

    So, if God did not reveal his Holy Scriptures to us, and did not send out preachers, no man could possibly believe on Jesus. Faith comes by hearing the word of God.

    Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

    Even Pelagius said that a person must hear the gospel to believe it. He has been slandered and misrepresented by many, starting with Augustine.
     
  10. Herald

    Herald New Member

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    Man is compelled to sin.

    Genesis 6:5 The the Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

    Romans 6:6 knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin;

    The word "compelled" means, "to cause to do or occur by overwhelming pressure" (Miriam-Webster). By that definition the sinner is compelled to sin every moment of his life. It is only the restraining hand of God that keeps man from the extreme depths of his depravity. He does this for the sake of the elect that have yet to be called in (Romans 9:22).

    Have you not read what the prophet Isaiah said?

    Isaiah 64:6 For all of us have become like one who is unclean, And all our righteous deeds are like a filthy garment; And all of us wither like a leaf, And our iniquities, like the wind, take us away.

    The Apostle Paul writes:

    Romans 9:18-21 So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires. You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?” On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it? Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use?

    Judas' guilt stemmed from his unbelief. He was long beforehand predestined to be the son of perdition (Psalm 41:9; John 17:12). Why Judas? We do not know why. Scripture does not reveal to us why it had to be Judas and not some other individual. So, why is Judas guilty? Because he acted in unbelief and without repentance.

    Of course Judas made the choice to betray Jesus, and he was fully culpable for that choice. God knew the choice Judas would make vis-à-vis Jesus, and He allowed it to happen according to His divine purpose.
     
  11. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Winman


    Because God has ordained that sinners who get saved repent and turn to God.

    it is the difference of remaining lost and going to hell, and being saved.

    This is the philosophy of the unsaved wicked.

    That is unbiblical fatalistic philosophy.

    No . Calvinism teaches that believers have the Spirit of God and the law of God in their heart. They can begin to obey the word.

    Obeying God's word is not stupid Winman.


    No one said he had to. He wanted to. he choose according to his nature.Sinners choose sin.

    It was ordained that those souls would go into eternity that day by the wicked hands of this depraved person. God did not ...make him pull the trigger,He did that because he wanted to.
    on that day he did what he wanted to do...could has nothing to do with what he did.

    All sinners are held accountable by God for their works.This is why you did not answer what Herald posted to you.You cannot answer to the scriptures offer at all.



    I can see it; Yes....your posts were sad ,a bit stupid, and idiotic,but do not be hard on yourself Winman...you are trying:thumbs: if you use scripture[correctly] instead, the quality of your posts will improve:thumbs:
     
  12. Winman

    Winman Active Member

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    This does not say man was compelled to sin, it simply states that every thought and intent of his heart was only evil continually. It does not support either choice or compulsion, it simply states a fact.

    And this is exactly what I have been telling you, when we trust Christ we are baptized into his death and are dead to sin. Just as a woman whose husband has died is free from him, we are now free from sin and the penalty for sin. We are now married to Jesus and are under grace.

    When the scriptures say we are a servant to sin, it is speaking of POSSESSION. Just as a slave belonged to his master, when we sin we "sell" ourselves to sin and belong to it. The wages of sin is death.

    I have already showed that Jesus taught that when we sin we become the servants of sin. Calvinism teaches the exact opposite of scripture, it teaches we are compelled to sin because we are slaves of sin. The scriptures teach no such thing. Even Paul shows that to whom we "yield" ourselves, to him we are servant.

    Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

    Paul does not say we are compelled to sin because we are slaves to sin, he said that to whom we yield ourselves servants to obey, we become his servant.

    And this is observable. Is anyone born with a cigarette in his mouth or a bottle of Jack Daniels in his hand? NO, but when men knowingly choose to smoke cigarettes when they are not addicted, or choose to drink when they are not addicted, with continual practice they become addicted and a slave to their sin. You will observe this with ALL sin.

    Once a man practices sin and becomes addicted to it he does become compelled to continue in it. But no man is compelled to sin until he first practices sin.

    This does not say we are compelled to sin, In fact, this verse refutes Original Sin. Does any leaf begin dead, brown, and dried out? NO, all leaves start out alive, tender, and green. Men are made upright (Ecc 7:29), but all men choose to sin. It is sin that brings death, and so we wither and die like a leaf. It is right in front of you, but you are oblivious because you are blinded by false doctrine.

    And if you go to the Potter in the OT you will see God says when he has spoken well of a nation but they turn and sin, he would turn from the good he would do them, or if a nation he has spoken evil of turns from sin, he would turn from the evil he intended toward it. Hardly unconditional, but you probably have never studied this in your Reformed church.

    Jer 18:6 O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel.
    7 At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it;
    8 If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them.
    9 And at what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it;
    10 If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them.


    God does not tempt any man to sin, so he could not possibly have caused Judas to betray Jesus. God in his foreknowledge simply knew that Judas would certainly betray Jesus and allowed it to bring about the crucifixion.
     
    #52 Winman, Feb 24, 2013
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  13. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    Still thinking of God like He was a man, I see.
     
  14. Herald

    Herald New Member

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    "The Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth". This speaks about the deeds of man. His deeds were wicked and they prevailed during Noah's time.

    Romans 3:10-18 is a treatise on the thoughts and intentions of the heart.
    Romans 3:13 says, "Their throat is an open grave, with their tongues that keep deceiving". This is a continual action in the Greek. They forever continue deceiving. They deceive again, and again, and again; ad infinitum, ad nauseaum. Only a person who is compelled to sin because of their wicked nature can continue to sin like this; and such is the condition of each and every unbeliever.

    You missed the point. I quoted Romans 6:6 to point out that at one time we were slaves to sin. At that time, prior to being converted, we were slaves to sin. A slave is the property of another, and bound to do the will of the one he serves. Prior to being freed from sin we were in bondage to it. Sin was out master. We were under compulsion to it.

    Ephesians 2:1-3 And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.

    Not only were we dead to sin, but we walked in that "deadness" (according to the course of this world). We did so willingly, yes; but we were compelled to do so because of our nature. Our nature did not possess the ability to anything else other than to sin.

    I agree with your statement, but you eliminate sin nature aspect.

    The Bible says that we are slaves to sin, not by action only, but also through the nature we are born with due to the sin of Adam (Romans 5:12). If man is born without a sin nature then Christ died in vain.

    We are.

    You are cherry-picking, using passages to support your presuppositions while ignoring the larger context. It is understandable why you continually do this, because it undermines your position.

    First of all, I do not smoke, and I drink alcohol in moderation. The Bible say that drunkenness is a sin, not imbibing. Smoking may not be wise or healthy, but neither is eating copious amounts of fat. You need to work on your illustrations.

    A person may become addicted to a specific sin by practicing it; but he is under compulsion to sin (general) by his very nature as explained earlier.

    Context:

    How can the "good work" of returning a lost wallet be considered by Isaiah to be akin to a filthy garment? Because of being in a state of sin.

    You are prolific in making this accusation against anyone who has the audacity to stand up to your false teaching. You are tone deaf.

    You are truly a piece of work. I understand the Old Testament context. So, why did Paul use the Jeremiah passage to speak about God's sovereign purpose? Go chew on that one for a while.

    Tone deaf! I never said God caused Judas to sin.
     
  15. saturneptune

    saturneptune New Member

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    In a lot of the Arminian posts, there seems to be a major misunderstanding about the power of an individual to make a choice. There are the choices we make in everyday life. Then there is the choice (that does not exist) for an unsaved person to turn to the Lord on their own efforts when they so deem.

    The games played in these posts are equating the two types of choice. For example, one poster used the Conneticut shooter as an example. This person had the power to choose to shoot or not to shoot. If he had chosen not to shoot, it would not have been because the Holy Spirit convicted him because of his faith in Jesus Christ. It would have been for some self serving motive. Had the shooter chosen not to shoot, he would have still been hopelessly lost in sin, headed to hell. The choice he made was a daily living choice, like we all make. It has nothing to do with the Calvin-free will debate. The issue in this debate is when we are regenerated and Who does the choosing.

    So, what Mr. and Mrs. Ariminian do is use examples of daily living choices to advance their flawed position on God's sovereignty, when in fact, it has nothing to do with the subject. We choose to go or not go to the grocery. We either go to work or we do not. These choices do not require regeneration. Deciding if your are going to get a Big Mac or a value menu burger does not require regeneration.

    Salvation and faith in Jesus Christ is another matter. He chose us.
     
  16. saturneptune

    saturneptune New Member

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    The Confused Arminian

    double post
     
    #56 saturneptune, Feb 24, 2013
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  17. saturneptune

    saturneptune New Member

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    The Confused Arminian

    posted in error, having trouble with net
     
    #57 saturneptune, Feb 24, 2013
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  18. salzer mtn

    salzer mtn Well-Known Member

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    A Arminian walked up to a calvinist and said, If i believed like you do that only the elect will be saved, i would not even bother to preach. The Calvinist answered right back, And if i believed like you do that God has not elected a number to salvation i would not preach either, because no man would repent or believe.:thumbsup:
     
  19. go2church

    go2church Active Member
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    He couldn't choose different, but God isn't responsible? How do you figure? Isn't that a form of fatalism?
     
  20. Herald

    Herald New Member

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    No. Look at it from God's perspective. He knew Judas' sinful choices, inasmuch as He is God and knows the end from the beginning. God did not choose Judas for his role based on what future choice he would make. He already knew the choice. It had already been made. As far as we are concerned, we can only see those things that are revealed to us as they occur. The rest we must accept by faith.
     
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