Man living in this world does not have knowledge of God save for the written Word of God. Hense, "Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God"
The Confusion of Arminianism
Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by Frogman, May 8, 2003.
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Romans 1:19-21(NASB)
19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.
20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.
21 For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened. -
What if Arminius were here to defend himself in this debate forum?
Arminians:
1. We are all born with the attribute of free will, because the fall of Adam was not so thorough as to have completely removed free will from our nature.
Arminius:
1. "In this state [of the inherited sin natufe from Adam], the free will of man towards the true good is not only wounded, maimed, infirm, bent, and weakened; but it [free will] is also imprisoned, destroyed, and lost."
Arminians:
2. Man is not totally depraved (born unable to do any good, unable to have saving knowledge of God, unable to have saving faith in God, unable to receive or respond to the Gospel).
Arminius:
2. "The mind of man, in this state, is dark, destitute of the saving knowledge of God, and, according to the Apostle, incapable of those things which belong to the Spirit of God. [...] This is true, not only when, from the truth of the law which has in some measure been inscribed on the mind, it is preparing to form conclusions by the understanding; but likewise when, by simple apprehension, it would receive the truth of the gospel externally offered to it. For the human mind judges that to be "foolishness" which is the most excellent "wisdom" of God. (1 Cor. i, 18, 24.)"
Arminians:
3. Man is not spiritually dead in his sin by default.
Arminius:
3. "To these let the consideration of the whole of the life of man who is placed under sin, be added, of which the Scriptures exhibit to us the most luminous descriptions; and it will be evident, that nothing can be spoken more truly concerning man in this state, than that he is altogether dead in sin. (Rom. iii, 10-19.)"
Arminians:
4. Faith is not a gift, except in the sense that it is an innate, God-given ability from creation.
Arminius:
4. "I never said this, I never thought of saying it, and, relying on God’s grace, I never will enunciate my sentiments on matters of this description in a manner thus desperate and confused. I simply affirm, that this enunciation is false, "faith is not the pure gift of God;" that this is likewise false, if taken according to the rigor of the words, "faith depends partly on the grace of God, and partly on the powers of free will..."
Arminians:
5. We have the ability to choose of our own free will to believe or not believe in the Gospel.
Arminius:
5. "...and that this is also false when thus enunciated, "If a man will, he can believe or not believe.""
Just thought it would be interesting to see how arminius would answer modern arminians.
Bro. Dallas -
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Brother Dallas,
When I said that the Roman Catholic church has moved away from their predestinarian--Five Point theological stance, I did not mean your shopping list of other errors. These errors came along with the various Pontiffs who made their own ex cathedras.
I ONLY meant that they have softened their views and presentation in the Christian world, who knows, perhaps because they honestly reevaluated their Augustinian background. After awhile people have more tools to work with and adjust their views because of the guidance of the Holy Spirit. We have more translations and Greek scholars who inform us of the rock-bottom truth coming from the Word of God. I heard a Roman Catholic priest say a few Sundays ago that Christ died for the sins of the whole world. Thank God that the Spirit of God is not limited to only Protestant Churches. Don't get me wrong, I agree with you that much of their doctrine comes wrongly out of human, church tradition rather than solely from the Old and New Testaments.
Some Christians adjust their theology as the Spirit of God instructs them to make the changes. We all have to be opened to the teaching ministry of the Holy Spirit. -
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yeah, brother Ray,
They will speak of the blood of Christ, but they will require members to rely on works and such things to obtain that blessing. I deny this.
Bro. Dallas -
Brother Dallas,
Roman Catholics and Wesleyan Arminians both require right living for their believers otherwise they are told they will not maintain the grace that Christ has given them. They are right in demanding holiness of heart but wrong to sit in judgment as to when a believer 'falls from grace.' They are in error but many in both churches are truly Christian people who love the Lord. -
Ken H,
I don't like to sit in judgment of other people especially not knowing a lot about them. Augustine was wrong to mix human philosophy coming from Plato and Aristotle with his views of the Christian faith. It was at this point that he picked up through his research much of the deterministic Greek philosophy of those times along with views that came to portray God as being ruthless in His alleged retribution on the non-elect. The uncaring god of the Greeks became the unconcerned God of Christianity. We are told in the Word to ignore the philosophies of men. [Colossians 2:8] Augustine failed in this way. I don't know if Augustine will bypass the Great White Throne Judgment. Let's hope that he will stand before the Judgment Seat of Christ which would mean that he will be saved and evaluated for his life and theology by Jesus. -
http://www.godrules.net/library/arminius/arminius34.htm
http://www.godrules.net/library/arminius/arminius29.htm
http://www.ccel.org/a/arminius/works1/htm/iv.xxiv.htm
quote:
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Originally posted by Frogman:
but since many are well grounded in the works based religion, there is no need of reading what a 'theologian' such as Arminius wrote, he spoke of common human nature and tried to reconcile that nature to the Divine nature of God. What is inconsistent is the method he employed was to adhere to the doctrine of total depravity, yet winding up making man's will free. Obviously a man who was confused.
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You may see it that way, but just by your statement here I can obviously see that you are the one who is confused about his teachings. You are not accurately following his arguments if you think he was teaching your view of Total Depravity. The freedom of man is most definately fallen in sin. We don't deny that. And IF left to ourselves without God's grace we would remain dead and enslaved. We don't deny that. But God doesn't leave us alone. He sent Christ, the apostles, the Scripture by the Holy Spirit guidance and power. These are sufficient to overcome our depravity. There is not a need to create a secondary working of the Spirit by which he secretly, inwardly and irresistable calls a select few. That makes the other working of God, which is clearly taught in scripture, to seem trivial at best.
Really are you reading the links?
Bro. Dallas Eaton -
Here is the complete article found at the end of the third link provided in my last post:
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Try reading them again without trying to prove him wrong. Read it with objectivity. Try to understand what he is saying, instead of refuting what he is saying. Read it with the thought, "What if this guy is right?" And then see if it makes more sense to you. -
I do think it is contradictory to say as Arminius does, that man has a totally depraved will, yet possesses a 'free-will'; but this is a representation of those who are seeking only an historical proof of thier views and not a Biblical understanding.
BTW, I can see no distinction between total depravity and 'total inability' perhaps you could enlighten me and others on the major distinctions...if they are to be found.
To use simple language and Biblical language, the first disciples were fisherman. In this capacity they once spent a night fishing with no 'fruit' to show for their labor. But on the next morning, when Christ directed them and empowered their efforts, then there was caught a draught of fish in the net that they were astonished.
It is the same in our own labor. Christ said, ...I must be about my father's business... we attempt to make this our labor. This is not ours, but is God's and was given to the Son while he was in this world. It is our business to proclaim the Gospel and leave to the Spirit to move upon the depraved heart of the hearer(s), thus in this way shall we see the produce of our labor and this by the power of the Spirit of Holiness and not the guise and enticment of men.
God Bless.
Bro. Dallas Eaton
{Yes, I have read these links, that is why I posted them}. -
Originally posted by Bro. Bill:
Bro. Dallas -
"Depravity" is a condition or state of being.
"Ability" is a skill.
These terms are not interchangeable, they do not have the same meaning and they do not describe a similarity
Conversely, to say that one who has no abilitites, is depraved is equally wrong, because those born with defects are not born depraved, just lacking in some area of normalcy.
[ May 09, 2003, 03:48 PM: Message edited by: Yelsew ] -
"Depravity" is a condition or state of being.
"Ability" is a skill.
These terms are not interchangeable, they do not have the same meaning and they do not describe a similarity
If so...then using common definitions you just proved the point, if not, then your confusion is added to that of Arminius himself
Bro. Dallas -
I have never in my sixty plus years observed even one human being that was afflicted with total inability. Every human regardless of condition, possesses at least one ability.
Likewise, I have never observed a single human being that is totally depraved. Every human being has at least one element of goodness.
Your insistance on extremes is "totally unbiblical" -
So, now you wish to deny heaven and hell? Are these two not opposing 'extremes'?
What of the extreme of glorifying man? Is that Biblical?
Bro. dallas -
If you truly believe there is, then you short change God's ability to create that which is good! And He said that his creation is Good!
Do you think for one minute that Adam's sin came as a surprise to God? If yes, then why did God establish the Lamb of God, slain from the Foundation of the World? That is, the earliest stage of creation, or before. Why did God establish the atonement for the sins of the world before the creation of of the world?
God is no fool, He knew before he created man what was going to happen, there are no surprises for God. -
The topic is man!
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