1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Featured The Crux of Keeping the Sabbath Day Contention

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Hark, Feb 14, 2016.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn Active Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2004
    Messages:
    9,025
    Likes Received:
    8
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian


    You know and we all know the meaning of ‘sabbath’ in Luke 18:12 is ‘week’. Diverting from the issue won’t help. The issue now is, “~what (I) try to define (the Sabbath) as (I) want to make it binding~” by.


    No one has said the week must be kept holy. And before anything else, it is not I or “~what (I) try to define (the Sabbath) as (I) want to make it binding~”. It is what “GOD concerning the Seventh Day in this regard SPAKE” and IN SPEAKING THROUGH CHRIST, “BY THE SON IN THESE LAST DAYS”, “made the Sabbath”, “~binding~”.


    And what I have been saying ALL ALONG, has been, that what defines the Sabbath and makes it binding Is “JESUS GAVE THEM THE PEOPLE OF GOD REST HE HAVING ENTERED INTO HIS OWN REST AS GOD IN HIS OWN”—JESUS HAVING RAISED from the dead on the Sabbath Day—“THEREFORE INDEED for the People of God keeping of the Sabbath remains contingent.”
     
  2. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2000
    Messages:
    37,982
    Likes Received:
    137
    Yes, in Luke 18:12 "sabbath" means week.
    No, it is not the week that is made holy. It doesn't say that, or that any day should be made holy.

    1Co 16:2 Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.

    It says "upon the first day of the week" not "sabbath". Thus your interpretation is wrong.
     
  3. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn Active Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2004
    Messages:
    9,025
    Likes Received:
    8
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    in Matthew 28:1-4 "Sabbath" -- "in the Sabbath" -- does not mean week or in the week.
     
  4. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2000
    Messages:
    37,982
    Likes Received:
    137
    It doesn't have to. The word has more than one meaning. Context determines meaning.

    (ESV) Now after the Sabbath, toward the dawn of the first day of the week, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary went to see the tomb.
     
  5. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2016
    Messages:
    4,705
    Likes Received:
    254
    Scripture states the Sabbath was a shadow of good things to come, So the actual good thing is anything but the shadow.

    Read up on early church fathers folks who met and trained by apostles. They point out the eighth day when Jesus resurrected, the day after Sabbath, as Jesus' resurrection is the true rest, the good thing that came.
     
  6. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    32,913
    Likes Received:
    71
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    Only as long as we are talking with those who care not a wit for sola scriptura support for week-day-1.

    In ALL the examples above we DO have the statement that is being identified - in support of the 7th day - God's own Holy Day - "My Holy Day" as HE said - 'The Holy Day of the LORD" Is 58:13 - but we have NOTHING of that sort for "week-day-1".

    As long as "the Bible" is simply "so much detail to be ignored" for those who reject sola scriptura testing of their doctrine - then "yeah" it is all pointless.

    1. And of course "All eternity AFTER the cross" in Is 66:23 New EARTH - for ALL MANKIND - is pretty hard to "ignore".

    "The NT believer" is told this -

    "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" - 1Cor 7:19

    2. Those who whine that the 3rd commandment 'not taking God's name in vain' is never once quoted in the NT -- no not even in part-- are simply "making rules up" -- are relying on a doctrine based on "fluff" -- as even DHK would know.

    1. That is only remotely possible if you imagine that we gentiles are not "part of mankind"
    "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall all MANKIND come before Me to Worship" Is 66:23 for all eternity in the New Earth.

    "the Sabbath was MADE for MANKIND" Mark 2:27

    so while you may be content to exclude all of us gentiles from "mankind" -- I find that idea unworkable - and so also does D.L. Moody and even the Baptist Confession of Faith - reject that idea.

    2. As was just stated the 3rd commandment 'not taking God's name in vain' is never once quoted in the NT -- no not even in part-- are simply "making rules up" -- are relying on a doctrine based on "fluff" nothing "sola scriptura" about it.


    On the contrary - not only does "ALL MANKIND" include gentiles rather than being translated "all mankind EXCEPT GENTILES" - as we both know --

    But we also have Isaiah 56

    2 Blessed is the man who does this,
    And the son of man who lays hold on it;
    Who keeps from defiling the Sabbath,
    And keeps his hand from doing any evil.”
    3 Do not let the son of the foreigner
    Who has joined himself to the Lord
    Speak, saying,
    “The Lord has utterly separated me from His people”;
    Nor let the eunuch say,
    “Here I am, a dry tree.”
    4 For thus says the Lord:
    “To the eunuchs who keep My Sabbaths,
    And choose what pleases Me,
    And hold fast My covenant,
    5 Even to them I will give in My house
    And within My walls a place and a name
    Better than that of sons and daughters;
    I will give them an everlasting name
    That shall not be cut off.

    6 “Also the sons of the foreigner
    Who join themselves to the Lord, to serve Him,
    And to love the name of the Lord, to be His servants—
    Everyone who keeps from defiling the Sabbath,
    And holds fast My covenant—
    7 Even them I will bring to My holy mountain,
    And make them joyful in My house of prayer.
    Their burnt offerings and their sacrifices
    Will be accepted on My altar;
    For My house shall be called a house of prayer for all nations.”

    If you had any serious though about keeping God's commandments you wouldn't be repeating these statements that have already been refuted by scripture such that your statement is an exact negation of what we find in the text.
     
  7. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    32,913
    Likes Received:
    71
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    I believe you mean to claim that there is actually a scripture that says that the 7th day Sabbath - the Sabbath of the 4th commandment was merely a shadow of good things to come - and is now done way.

    If so - then you have only "quoted you" because the key elements of your claim are not in the actual Bible.

    What is more - D.L. Moody, The Baptist Confession of Faith, C.H. Spurgeon, Andy Stanley, Matthew Henry etc - would agree with my position on that specific point -- even though they reject the Bible doctrine that the Law of God cannot be bent/edited by the traditions of man and thus would "repoint" the 4th commandment to "week day 1" after the cross via their traditions.

    I myself - prefer "sola scriptura" basis for doctrine.
     
  8. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2000
    Messages:
    37,982
    Likes Received:
    137
    Sticking with sola scriptura is one part of the answer. Sticking with scripture within the context that it is written is the other part. You do use scripture but miserably fail with the context in which the scripture is used.
    You have nothing at all.
    There is not one Scripture that gives a command for gentiles to keep the Sabbath; never once does the NT command a gentile believer to keep the sabbath. Never.
    Let's look at your verses "above"

    2. Is 58:13 declares the Sabbath to be the "Holy Day of the LORD".
    --So it is holy?? So what? The statement is not directed to us, that is the NT believer. Again you ignore context. There is not command here Bob; none whatsoever. Furthermore it is written to Israel not to Gentile believers. It is OT. The church had not even begun yet. Context Bob; context!

    3. Mark 2:28 is a statement about the SEVENTH day Sabbath not "week day 1" where Christ says it is HIS Day -- "The Son of man is LORD of the Sabbath"
    --And so?? It is His day. I agree. So is Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, and every other day "His day." There is not day that is not His day. He owns it all. He is Lord, not only of "The Sabbath, but of "The Lord's Day" (which ironically for you shows ownership--day of the Lord), and every other day. He owns them all. He is not commanding anyone here to keep any of them. Context!

    4. of that same 7th day Sabbath -- observed for all eternity by all mankind after the cross in the New Earth we find this in Is 66:23 "From Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to worship".
    --If there will be a Sabbath observed for all eternity it will not be here. There will be a new earth and a new heaven. You do not have the Biblical insight to know what kind of solar system that earth will be like. For example, perhaps our earth will have a cycle more like Mars:
    http://www.windows2universe.org/kids_space/period.html
    with the year being twice as long as it is now. Obviously the lengths of the days, weeks and months will all be changed. You have no framework with which to define "sabbath" in a "new earth." You don't know anything about "the new earth." It is all speculation.
    When you have no Bible to give, it is pointless. There is no command in the NT to keep the Sabbath.
    Define "new earth" Bob. Where does the Bible define the "new earth." It won't be this earth.
    Keeping the Sabbath is one of the Israel's laws. Again, you ignore context. Actually the context of that chapter is marriage.
    Ephesians 5:4 Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.
    Ephesians 5:6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.
    Matthew 12:35 A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things.
    36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.
    --That has it covered fairly well don't you think?

    Will the "new earth" be more like Jupiter, Mars, Saturn? What will it be like? You don't know. I can tell you this much. It won't be this earth for this one will burn up with fire.
    Absolutely. But you think man is made for the Sabbath that is that man is to be subject to the laws of the Sabbath. You have put yourself under the law.
    Either way, there is no command there to keep the Sabbath, is there?

    Did you say "sola scriptura" or "sola Moody," which one?

    The commands about taking God's name in vain are harsher in the NT than in the OT:
    Matthew 12:35 A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things.
    36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.

    and:
    2 Corinthians 10:5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;
    --Do you bring every thought into captivity, to the obedience of Christ?

    Pure speculation. Has nothing to do with us today. There is no new earth today, and thus no sabbath to keep.

    CONTEXT:
    Read the verses just before to give this context:

    Isaiah 55:12 For ye shall go out with joy, and be led forth with peace: the mountains and the hills shall break forth before you into singing, and all the trees of the field shall clap their hands.
    13 Instead of the thorn shall come up the fir tree, and instead of the brier shall come up the myrtle tree: and it shall be to the LORD for a name, for an everlasting sign that shall not be cut off.
    --Again, it is speaking of a time that is everlasting, as in a "new earth." Either way, the time is not now. The scripture is out of context. There is no command here for a NT believer to keep the Sabbath.
    Bob looks in vain but cannot find even one command to keep the Sabbath.
     
  9. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2016
    Messages:
    4,705
    Likes Received:
    254
    It could be argued you still have to keep the Sabbath.....In the true rest that is Jesus Christ. The Day, the calendar can't do it for you.

    You have another rest besides Jesus Christ? I can hear someone whining about idolatry.

    There is A WAY to keep the Sabbath. You have to offer sacrifices and you have to get circumcision.


    Hebrews 4
    4For He has said somewhere concerning the seventh day: “AND GOD RESTED ON THE SEVENTH DAY FROM ALL HIS WORKS”; 5and again in this passage, “THEY SHALL NOT ENTER MY REST.” 6Therefore, since it remains for some to enter it, and those who formerly had good news preached to them failed to enter because of disobedience,
    7He again fixes a certain day, “Today,” saying through David after so long a time just as has been said before,
    “TODAY IF YOU HEAR HIS VOICE,
    DO NOT HARDEN YOUR HEARTS.”

    8For if Joshua had given them rest, He would not have spoken of another day after that.




    Ok so God fixes a certain day AGAIN..... "TODAY". If it was just the Sabbath all along, he wouldn't fix that day and neither would it be again unless he switched before that.

    And then you have to contend with this ANOTHER day Joshua was talking about.


    What another day of WHO!?
     
  10. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2016
    Messages:
    4,705
    Likes Received:
    254
    I wanted to add this little bit more.
    Hebrews 4
    9So there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God.
    10For the one who has entered His rest has himself also rested from his works, as God did from His.

    In Hebrews 3

    18And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who were disobedient? 19So we see that they were not able to enter because of unbelief.

    It seems like Jesus Christ was the only person who succeeded in actually ever keeping a Sabbath.
     
  11. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    32,913
    Likes Received:
    71
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    That same argument then applies to every commandment - including "have no other gods before me" -- do you suggest we "ignore them all"????

    'The saints KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12

    Rom 8:4-9 Paul says it is only the lost - that can claim that they "can not" keep the Law of God.
     
  12. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    32,913
    Likes Received:
    71
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    The 7th day Sabbath was applicable during ALL of that time even by your own standards - there is no such thing as "believers STOPPED keeping the 4th commandment at the time Psalms 95 was written' and we all agree to that.

    Heb 4 argues that the Sabbath "REMAINS" from that Psalms 95 point - not 'it was deleted in Psalms 95 and so it does not remain".
     
  13. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    32,913
    Likes Received:
    71
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    Only as long as we are talking with those who care not a wit for sola scriptura support for week-day-1.

    In ALL the examples above we DO have the statement that is being identified - in support of the 7th day - God's own Holy Day - "My Holy Day" as HE said - 'The Holy Day of the LORD" Is 58:13 - but we have NOTHING of that sort for "week-day-1".

    As long as "the Bible" is simply "so much detail to be ignored" for those who reject sola scriptura testing of their doctrine - then "yeah" it is all pointless.

    1. And of course "All eternity AFTER the cross" in Is 66:23 New EARTH - for ALL MANKIND - is pretty hard to "ignore".

    "The NT believer" is told this -

    "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" - 1Cor 7:19

    2. Those who whine that the 3rd commandment 'not taking God's name in vain' is never once quoted in the NT -- no not even in part-- are simply "making rules up" -- are relying on a doctrine based on "fluff" -- as even DHK would know.

    1. That is only remotely possible if you imagine that we gentiles are not "part of mankind"
    "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall all MANKIND come before Me to Worship" Is 66:23 for all eternity in the New Earth.

    "the Sabbath was MADE for MANKIND" Mark 2:27

    so while you may be content to exclude all of us gentiles from "mankind" -- I find that idea unworkable - and so also does D.L. Moody and even the Baptist Confession of Faith - reject that idea.

    2. As was just stated the 3rd commandment 'not taking God's name in vain' is never once quoted in the NT -- no not even in part-- are simply "making rules up" -- are relying on a doctrine based on "fluff" nothing "sola scriptura" about it.


    On the contrary - not only does "ALL MANKIND" include gentiles rather than being translated "all mankind EXCEPT GENTILES" - as we both know --

    But we also have Isaiah 56

    2 Blessed is the man who does this,
    And the son of man who lays hold on it;
    Who keeps from defiling the Sabbath,
    And keeps his hand from doing any evil.”
    3 Do not let the son of the foreigner
    Who has joined himself to the Lord
    Speak, saying,
    “The Lord has utterly separated me from His people”;
    Nor let the eunuch say,
    “Here I am, a dry tree.”
    4 For thus says the Lord:
    “To the eunuchs who keep My Sabbaths,
    And choose what pleases Me,
    And hold fast My covenant,
    5 Even to them I will give in My house
    And within My walls a place and a name
    Better than that of sons and daughters;
    I will give them an everlasting name
    That shall not be cut off.

    6 “Also the sons of the foreigner
    Who join themselves to the Lord, to serve Him,
    And to love the name of the Lord, to be His servants—
    Everyone who keeps from defiling the Sabbath,
    And holds fast My covenant—
    7 Even them I will bring to My holy mountain,
    And make them joyful in My house of prayer.
    Their burnt offerings and their sacrifices
    Will be accepted on My altar;
    For My house shall be called a house of prayer for all nations.”



    Just not in real life.

    :)


    only for those who "don't read" the Bible enough to see that the "New Heavens and New Earth" is in the NT - in Rev 21 and that in that New Heavens and New earth - for all eternity - GENTILES and JEWs (ALL MANKIND) keep the Sabbath.

    "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall all MANKIND come before Me to Worship" Is 66:23

    AND of course the 4th commandment IS quoted in part in the NT -- and the 3rd commandment is not quoted at ALL in the NT.

    As was already pointed out.

    Your argument is "with the text". Sabbath is the "Holy Day of the LORD"

    Is 58:13
    “If because of the Sabbath, you turn your foot
    From doing your own pleasure on My holy day,
    And call the Sabbath a delight, the holy day of the Lord honorable,
    And honor it, desisting from your own ways,
    From seeking your own pleasure
    And speaking your own word,

    2 Tim 3:16 "ALL scripture is given by inspiration from God AND is to be used for doctrine"

    Your argument is "with the text".

    Luke 24 - Christ taught them AFTER the Cross "From ALL of Scripture"

    Your argument is "with the text".

    Find ONE text saying "the Son of Man is LORD - of week day 1" in the Bible as if Christ has placed any special significance on it at all - there is not one such text and we both know it.



    4. of that same 7th day Sabbath -- observed for all eternity by all mankind after the cross in the New Earth we find this in Is 66:23 "From Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to worship".

    IF the Bible is true????

    IF??

    The Bible does not show Sabbath "deleted" it shows it "for all of eternity" after the cross.

    The new earth - is here on this planet -- made new -- Read Rev 21.
     
    #153 BobRyan, Mar 26, 2016
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2016
  14. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2000
    Messages:
    37,982
    Likes Received:
    137
    IF (and we are not) commanded to commemorate any day of the week it would be the first day of the week, the day that Christ rose from the dead. That is the day that the apostles kept (Acts 20:7; 1Cor.16:2). There is no evidence that any NT believer kept the Sabbath. But you follow that traditions and commandments of men (and a woman) and not God, denying the very principle of sola scriptura that you assert.

    Every day is holy. The Sabbath is particularly holy to the Jews for it is given as a sign of the covenant made between Jehovah and the nation of Israel and their generations forever. I don't suppose you can tell me what tribe you are from??

    You have to give the detail before you can claim sola scriptura, and you have to give more detail than to just claim that the Bible says: "There is no God," as it does in Psalm 14:1. This is your method of stating that the NT Gentile believer must keep the Sabbath. Neither are true because the context is ignored.

    Context is ignored.
    2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

    2 Peter 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
    13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
    --Now remember these scriptures concerning a new earth.

    Nothing there about the Sabbath.

    The NT commands are even more strict, but Bob should know that.

    And what is this new earth? You have no idea. You can't describe it. You don't even know what a day, week, month, or year will be like. There is no guarantee it will be like this one. You are just speculating.

    That is a nice little statement; it is not a command.

    Again you follow the traditions of man and not sola scriptura as you earlier affirmed.

    Same argument. Already been refuted. Don't keep repeating yourself.

    You have all mankind in the new earth not in this earth. Deal with things you know about, not speculate with things you don't know about.

    Pure speculation, taking into consideration the context, which is a new earth. You know nothing of this time.

    I had said this, to which you have responded above:
    Sticking with sola scriptura is one part of the answer. Sticking with scripture within the context that it is written is the other part. You do use scripture but miserably fail with the context in which the scripture is used.
    --You are saying: "You don't stick to sola scriptura in real life"???
    Your answer seems quite a bit confused, unless you mean you stick to "The Great Controversy," more than Bible. You will have to explain that one.

    I maintain my position that there is not one command in the Bible given for Gentiles for NT believers to keep the Sabbath, and the above is what you answered. Drivel!
    You know nothing of the new earth to comment on. You have no authority to do so.
    How does that apply to us today? We are not living in a new earth.

    The fourth command was given to Israel as you well know.

    So is every day holy to the Lord in the NT. You have no argument.

    Yes I use these scriptures all the time. In fact they contradict what you are saying. The OT scriptures that you bring out are obviously directed to Israel. You can't prove your case from the NT.

    I don't have to. I believe man can worship on any day he likes. No day is more holy than any other.
    The command in Scripture is to gather together; to assemble or come together to worship.
    Hebrews 10:25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.
    --There is no command about which day to assemble. The command is to assemble according to the manner and decision of the local church. Where I served some years ago, we assembled on Fridays. Do you think we were in violation of Scriptures? I don't. Sunday here is a tradition, as Saturday should be for you. But instead it is a command coming from a false prophet, a command from a woman who had a vision and her followers have kept it ever since. Those who don't follow her vision are said to have the mark of the beast. Pitiful!

    That has nothing to do with us today. It has to do with a new earth. And we are not living on a new earth. You can't give anything relevant can you Bob?

    If the Bible is true you are following a false prophet and her dream or vision, you are not following the Bible; thus all this drivel that you have posted.

    If the Bible is true, and it is, this earth will be burnt up with a fervent heat, but you are not considering that.
    2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
     
  15. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    32,913
    Likes Received:
    71
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    Not according to the Bible.

    1. There is not one NT or OT text saying "week day 1 is the Holy Day of the LORD" but we DO have that for Sabbath in Is 58:13. (AND we do not have ONE text in the NT or OT that says "week day 1 is the LORD's Day)

    2. There is not ONE text in the NT or OT that says that "they met EVERY week-day-1 for gospel teaching" for both Jews AND gentiles but we DO have that for Sabbath in Acts 18:4-6.

    3. There is not ONE text in the NT or OT that says "they met week-day-1 after week-day-1 " for anything - but we DO have that in Acts 13 and Acts 17 regarding Sabbath for both Jews AND Gentiles.

    4. There is not ONE text in the NT or OT saying "from week day 1 to week day 1 shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to worship" - but we DO have that in Is 66:23 for the Sabbath.

    5. There is not ONE text in the NT or OT saying "the Son of man is LORD of week day 1" but we DO have that in the NT for the Sabbath in Mark 2:28.

    6. There is not ONE text in the NT saying "there REMAINS therefore a week-day 1 rest for the people of God" but we DO have that for Sabbath in Heb 4.

    7. There is not ONE text in NT or OT saying "remember week-day-1 to keep it holy" but we DO have that in Ex 20:8 for the Sabbath.

    8. There is NOT ONE text in NT or OT saying it is ok by God if we bend/edit/break/ignore one of the TEN Commandments - but we DO have condemnation for doing such a thing in the NT -- by the Words of Christ Himself! Mark 7:6-13


    Mark 7

    7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
    8 For laying aside the Commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
    9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
    10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
    11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
    12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
    13 Making the Word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.


    That is a case of Christ demonstrating the way that the magisterium is hammered "sola scriptura" in the cases where it's traditions and "doctrines of men" are at odds with scripture.

    The elders consisting of scribes and pharise es are in fact the "magisterium" even Paul admits to this. And Jesus shows how they claim to "sit in the chair of Moses" as church magisterium .


    Then Jesus spoke to the crowds and to his disciples, saying, The scribes and the Pharisees have taken their seat on the chair of Moses. Therefore, do and observe all things whatsoever they tell you, but do not follow their example. For they preach but they do not practice. (Matthew 23:1-3)


    1. Ex 20:8-11 does NOT say "every day is holy" to get that doctrine you "quote you" not the Bible. I prefer "sola scriptura" testing.

    2. Gal 4 condemns even ONE observation of the pagan holy days -

    3. Jer 31:31-33 and Heb 8:6-10 says that the NEW COVENANT is only with "house of Israel and the house of Judah" --- yep - I am a NEW COVENANT Christian - is this were you tell us that you reject the NEW Covenant??

    You have to give the detail before you can claim sola scriptura, and you have to give more detail than to just claim that the Bible says: "There is no God," as it does in Psalm 14:1.
     
    #155 BobRyan, Mar 28, 2016
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2016
  16. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2000
    Messages:
    37,982
    Likes Received:
    137
    Here is what I am going to do with your post.
    Since sola scriptura is only valid when context is taken into consideration, and the context here is the believers of the NT, I am going back to your post and wipe out all OT scripture, for they don't speak of the NT believer. That is step one.

    Now that makes your post smaller.
    What does your first reference talk about? Acts 18:4-6?
    Acts 18:4 And he reasoned in the synagogue every sabbath, and persuaded the Jews and the Greeks.
    5 And when Silas and Timotheus were come from Macedonia, Paul was pressed in the spirit, and testified to the Jews that Jesus was Christ.
    6 And when they opposed themselves, and blasphemed, he shook his raiment, and said unto them, Your blood be upon your own heads; I am clean: from henceforth I will go unto the Gentiles.
    --This was the nature of Paul's missionary journeys. He went to the Jews first, and then to the Greeks (Gentiles). He was a Jew by birth, a Rabbi, a Pharisee of the Pharisees, and through this background he often had an opportunity to speak in a synagogues. He took advantage of the opportunities that God gave him. Inevitably the preaching of the gospel in a synagogue got him kicked out. You should see that from verse 6 Thus he goes to the Gentiles, and it does not say which day he continues to teach them, for now it really doesn't matter. The Jews gathered on the Sabbath, and that is why he went there. He took the opportunity that God gave him. He went to the Jew first and then to the Gentile.
    --But you are not a Jew, are you? Do you go into the Jewish synagogues and preach the gospel Bob?

    Then you make this statement:
    There is not ONE text in the NT or OT that says "they met week-day-1 after week-day-1 " for anything - but we DO have that in Acts 13 and Acts 17 regarding Sabbath.
    In Acts 13 Paul and Barnabas set out in their first missionary journey.
    What did they do?
    Acts 13:5 And when they were at Salamis, they preached the word of God in the synagogues of the Jews: and they had also John to their minister.
    --Hmm. I wonder when the people met in those synagogues? Care to offer a guess?
    The Jews were now practicing a false religion, the religion of Judaism. The keeping of the Sabbath was part of a false religion, just like the keeping of Friday is for the Muslims. He uses that day to preach to them because that is the day that they gathered together, and Paul has opportunity to preach to them. It was not "Paul's personal practice" as a Christian. It was the practice of the Jews.

    In chapter 18 Paul comes to Corinth. What does he do here?
    Acts 18:4 And he reasoned in the synagogue every sabbath, and persuaded the Jews and the Greeks.
    --He preaches in the synagogues to the Jews until he gets kicked out. We see later that the Corinthian church begins to meet on the first day of the week. The unsaved Jews met on the sabbath. But once they were saved (1Cor.16:2), they met on the first day of the week. Bob, you are ignoring context, and thus ignoring sola scriptura which takes into consideration all the Bible, not just your favorite parts.

    I see it was chapter 17 you had mentioned. Doesn't matter. His practice was the same:
    Acts 17:1 Now when they had passed through Amphipolis and Apollonia, they came to Thessalonica, where was a synagogue of the Jews:
    2 And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures,
    --His manner or practice was to go into the synagogues on the Sabbath days when the Jews gathered together and preach the gospel to them.
    --Do you go to the synagogues to preach the gospel to the unsaved Jew, Bob?
    Then your comparison is not valid.

    Your next objection:
    There is not ONE text in the NT or OT saying "the Son of man is LORD of week day 1" but we DO have that in the NT for the SABBATH in Mark 2:28.
    What objection is here? Every day is holy. Christ is Lord of all, isn't he? Is he your Lord? There is no command here to keep the Sabbath. Clearly.

    Your next objection:
    There is not ONE text in the NT saying "there REMAINS therefore a week-day 1 rest for the people of God" but we DO have that for SABBATH in Heb 4.
    The rest in Heb.4 is Christ Himself. He is not speaking of a day, but rather of Christ.

    Hebrews 4:5 And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest.
    Matthew 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
    --There is no day here. If one has not entered into Christ's rest they have no salvation.
    Christ is our rest; Christ is our Sabbath. Every preceding sabbath that ever was, was simply a shadow of Christ, the real Sabbath to come. (Col.2:17).

    Next objection:
    2. Gal 4 condemns even ONE observation of the pagan holy days -
    Galatians 4:10 Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years.
    --These refer to Jewish feasts and their sabbath days in particular. This verse condemns your position of the observance of the sabbath along with Col.2:17. The keeping of the Sabbath has now become as a pagan feast day. It is part of a pagan religion, which is Judaism, a religion which denies that Christ is the true Messiah.
    William MacDonald says this which I agree with:

    4:10, 11 The Galatians were observing the Jewish calendar with its Sabbaths, its festivals, and seasons. Paul expresses fear for those who profess to be Christians, yet seek to find favor with God by legal observances. Even unregenerate people can observe days and months and years. It gives some people intense satisfaction to feel there is something they can do in their own strength to win God's smile. But this implies that man has some strength, and hence, to that extent, he does not need the Savior.
    If Paul could write in this manner to the Galatians, what would he write to professing Christians today who are seeking to attain holiness by legal observances? Would he not condemn the traditions brought into Christianity from Judaism—a humanly ordained priesthood, distinctive vestments for the priest, Sabbath-keeping, holy places, candles, holy water, and so forth?

    And lastly:
    3. Jer 31:31-33 and Heb 8:6-10 says that the NEW COVENANT is only with "house of Israel and the house of Judah" --- yep - I am a NEW COVENANT Christian - is this were you tell us that you reject the NEW Covenant??
    Heb.8:7 sums this up nicely:
    Heb 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
    --But now there is no place for the first covenant for the second covenant has taken its place. The Sabbath Day is no longer to be kept. The teaching is quite clear here. It seems as if you haven't studied this chapter at all.
     
  17. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    May 31, 2015
    Messages:
    4,928
    Likes Received:
    882
    Faith:
    Baptist
    DHK quoted this...

    So, OT scripture isn't applicable to us today? Srsly?
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Winner Winner x 1
  18. blessedwife318

    blessedwife318 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2014
    Messages:
    2,358
    Likes Received:
    444
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Jesus would disagree with you

    Luke 24:27
    And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he interpreted to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning Himself.

    Paul would disagree with you

    2 Tim 3:16,17
    All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for tra
    ining in righteousness,17 that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.

    Luke would disagree with you

    Acts 17:11
    11 Now these Jews were more noble than those in Thessalonica; they received the word with all eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see if these things were so.

    Those are just a few example of how the OT has value for the believer. You can't just delete it if you don't like what it says.
    Step One is to realize that ALL of the Bible is important.
     
    • Like Like x 2
    • Winner Winner x 2
  19. Internet Theologian

    Internet Theologian Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2015
    Messages:
    2,224
    Likes Received:
    992
    Um. OK?

    I've witnessed this in the past where the OT Scriptures are trivialized and made to be non-effective for the believer and not applicable to them.

    So the OT Scriptures don't speak of the NT believer? If that is your point, you're in error.

    I like what Art Azurdia said, it was something like this, 'Carrying around a NT is like having the answers to the test without knowing what the questions are'. He made an excellent and valid point, and a very biblical point as well. I'd gather that you would disagree due to this, and he being Reformed (as much as I can gather)?
     
    #159 Internet Theologian, Mar 28, 2016
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2016
    • Like Like x 3
    • Agree Agree x 1
  20. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2000
    Messages:
    37,982
    Likes Received:
    137
    Not all of it.

    All of it is inspired and all of it is instructive in some way.
    But just as we are not commanded to keep the Jewish Sabbath neither are we commanded to do as they did in the Book of Judges:
    Judges 21:25 In those days there was no king in Israel: every man did that which was right in his own eyes.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
Loading...