How about telling me what Phil.1:6; 2;12, 13 mean? Thank you.
The Danger of Open Theism
Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by PastorFaulk, Aug 2, 2007.
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In fact, I got to thinking the other night --- you guys are into describing everything is extreme terms aren't you? Totlal sovereignty -- total depravity. Did you ever learn the testing advice that the extreme is never the right answer to a question? Indeed, it isn't! Neither is man totally depraved nor is God totally sovereign. He simply does not make every decision for you and you KNOW it!
Likely, you yourself are guilty of saying that man does not have free will, right? He -- every one of us -- is/was a slave to sin. And how does your theology say that man is released from "the bondage of the will?" God decided before creation that you would be saved/"elect," right? Through nothing in you or that you did, He was going to save you. And regardless of anything in me or that I did, He was going to condemn me.
If we have no control over our destinies, our lives, that is what the Greeks called "Fate." We pretend we are good or bad, maybe go through the motions of being Christian even --- all of that is just "Greek theater." We are "beating the air" as Paul said because our destiny is out of our hands.
That is what I see that is so pathetic about Calvinists. They can only think they know their destiny. But according to their own theology, God chose and only God can know who He chose! Some Calvinists will even say, "It is wrong to inquire into this hidden counsel of God [regarding our eternal destiny]." Some will say we know it by our "holy living" (Boice). NO! That is just the motions we go through as if to prove we are "elect!" To "obey" the Father we may not, indeed, have! It is not this life that decides -- it is Fate.
Unless you can choose Him and not believe it is in vain, then you really worship another God. You don't worship the God who foresees who will believe and then predestines them to calling, sanctification, and glorification. (Would you at least admit that?) And maybe you are quite happy with that. The children of Israel were happy enough worshipping "the queen of heaven" that they said they wouldn't listen to Jeremiah's warnings, Jer 44:15-17. Yo mama* (my mama, too, I guess), the RCC, still worships such very happily. They KNOW that one day they will be in heaven -- but that is another god altogether, isn't it?
skypair
*MYSTERY BABYLON, MOTHER OF HARLOTS -
Open Theism: Man's attempt to explain that for which he lacks capacity to fully grasp and articulate. Trying to reconcile the sovereignty of God and the human volition in a way that satisfies the intellectual wants of humans only diminishes God and without warrant increases the superlative view of man.
God is able at all times to know all possibilities of all things and all things that will be. Every divinely conceivable formula of events (infinitum) past (including before the creation of the Angelic and Human time lines often called eternity past), present and future (including beyond the end of the Angelic and Human time lines often called eternity future) are known by God at all times. Included in that are the decisions of both angelic and human beings by means of their volition given to them by God.
Attempting to explain how this is possible in such a manner that satisfies the intellectual lust to know all that God knows is not only foolish but sinful. Attempting to know and understand all we can about God is not but attempting to be on par with God and imagine we know as He knows is as foolish as it gets, and here you have Open Theism. -
But knowing the possibilities is NOT knowing which will be chosen by another sovereign being! How did another being become sovereign? God created them thus! Angels, man -- He allowed them their own decisions! Not their own outcomes -- their own decisions. See, man DOESN'T know all the outcomes or he would no doubt choose as God does and never sin!
You want to see a life where God is TOTALLY sovereign? Look at Christ and Christ alone! There is no such animal as the total sovereignty of God that you idealize.
That "point" was before He foresaw the "previews" for the movie. :laugh: Actually, if God SOVEREIGNLY DECIDED to create man, He would at that point know all the possibilities but not all the individual choices. Remember, "man" the idea, came before man the individual. Same thing with angels who came before man. In fact, man is God's "lesson in love" to the faithful angels. So we see God respecting time and individual moral freedom among His intelligent creation, right?
But to the Christians out there --- God is about revealing Himself and remaking us in the image of His Son, "the fulness of His stature" in all things. Jesus sent the Holy Spirit to "lead us into ALL truth." People who deny truth that can be found in scripture are basically denying the Spirit of God and Christ and would seem NOT to have the "mind of Christ," 1Cor 2:16.
skypair -
Frankly, in this case, the case of responding to my post, I believe you have reacted instead of responded. I have read many of your posts. To me they often are lively and adequate responses with decent challenges, however in this case I do believe you have opted for some assumptions about me that are erroneous.
I am not a Calvinist, let me make that clear. I accept both the clear Biblical teaching of the Sovereignty of God and the volitional capacity of man and angels and am confident that both are without contradiction because they are both presented in Scripture as true.
My contention is with the attempts of some to formulate explanations of how both are possible to the extent that they satisfy the intellectual lusts to know all God knows and explain all God is able to do in a way fails to acquiesce to and humbly acknowledge our finite capacity vs God's infinite capacity.
The mechanics of all that God does is in fact NOT explained in Scripture. And while the Scriptures do provide an inexhaustive revelation of God (of His essense and His work) to man, it is inexhaustive not because it is all inclusive of all God is and the mechanics of all God does but inexhaustive because we are so limited in our capacity to know and understand God. It does not mean we cannot know a great deal and come to be enlightened by His Spirit regarding the revelation of Scripture because the Scriptures declare we can move to spiritual maturity.
But to treat the Sovereignty of God and the volition of man in such a way as to attempt to fully explain it so that we satisfy the intellectual lust to be equal with or on par with God in our understanding and handling of how He works...is the greatest of arrogance, foolishness and sinful. -
The mechanics of all that God does is in fact NOT explained in Scripture.Click to expand...
But to treat the Sovereignty of God and the volition of man in such a way as to attempt to fully explain it so that we satisfy the intellectual lust...Click to expand...
skypair -
First was Millenium Exclusion, then justifying the use of Marijuana, and now Open Theism. I am not sure that any amount of income could be justified by allowing such non sense.
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2 Timothy2:1-4 said:First was Millenium Exclusion, then justifying the use of Marijuana, and now Open Theism. I am not sure that any amount of income could be justified by allowing such non sense.Click to expand...
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2 Timothy2:1-4 said:First was Millenium Exclusion, then justifying the use of Marijuana, and now Open Theism. I am not sure that any amount of income could be justified by allowing such non sense.Click to expand...
Are you a "free moral agent?" Like Adam? Like Lucifer before him?
skypair -
skypair said:Perhaps there is another explanation that would suit you. Eternity is a tough concept and that Someone eternal would create time to operate with and appear in sounds pretty far out to our limited minds.
Are you a "free moral agent?" Like Adam? Like Lucifer before him?
skypairClick to expand...
I'm not sure hwere you get the idea that Adam and Lucifer were free moral agants but anyway. There are a number of tuff concepts. Making God out to be limited by knowledge in any way is wierd. But to then be dogmatic on it makes me wonder what is the underlying reason since scripture does not indicate such.
Job 38:2- 41
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