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Featured The difference between unions and associations of Christian Baptists.

Discussion in 'Fundamental Baptist Forum' started by Strannik, Feb 22, 2021 at 4:13 PM.

  1. Strannik

    Strannik Member

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    Can you tell us what kind of Baptist unions you have in the United States in terms of strictness in social and theological life?
    Do you have any Baptist unions in which Christian sisters are required to walk with their heads covered according to the command of the Apostle Paul?
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    Are there any unions in which alcohol is prohibited and in general how do you treat it?
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    Unions in which they deny participation in politics or service in law enforcement agencies?
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    Well, and so on, and something like that...
     
  2. rlvaughn

    rlvaughn Well-Known Member
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    We have so many Baptist groups in the United States that it is complex to compare and contrast them. I have a list that I published years ago here -- Ministry and Music - Seeking the Old Paths: Another outline of Baptists in the US. It needs updating, but perhaps could be helpful. I might note, first, that in the U.S. our groups tend to prefer the words "association" or "convention" over "union".

    The groups vary from very conservative to very liberal. Some are loose, in that you could believe almost anything and still be a member. Others are strict, and would exclude churches which violate the articles of faith and/or constitution.
    I am not sure that any groups, as a group, require head coverings. There are some local churches which hold this belief and practice, but would be a small minority in the United States.
    A lot of variation here. Some church covenants require abstinence from alcohol as a beverage, as well as abstaining from participation in any form of the sale or distribution of alcoholic beverages.
    Not sure there are any that deny it, but perhaps some discourage it.
     
  3. robt.k.fall

    robt.k.fall Member

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    @Strannik, 30 years ago, I married an ethnic Russian girl from Tashkent. She and her family were/are EC-B. I have served as my local church's liaison to the EC-B community. Due to health reasons, I am no longer as active as I once was. Early on, we translated the Unregistered EC-B Statement of Faith. So, I am familiar with the EC-B doctrine.
    I'll try to answer your questions.
    Please keep in mind, here in the United States the various Baptist organizations are not as tightly bound together as the Brotherhood of the EC-B. As one leader once said, "We Baptists are bound together by a rope of sand."
    1. As Brother Vaughn wrote the various orgs are all over the map in terms of strictness in social and theological life.
    2. Yes, though again as noted this is more or less left up to the individual and the local churches.
    3. For the most part, American Baptists hold to a position of total abstention from the beverage use of alcohol. This is one of the reasons why Baptist churches use unfermented grape juice and not wine for the Lord's Supper commemoration.
    4. The history of Anglo-American Baptists is different from that of the Continental and Slavic Baptists. So, we have few problems with participation in the political process or law enforcement.
     
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  4. Strannik

    Strannik Member

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    Thanks for the help. Do you know their websites or forums? Where can I find a link to them?
     
  5. rlvaughn

    rlvaughn Well-Known Member
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    The following thread gives links to many U.S. Baptist denominational groups. It is quite old, so you probably will find some of the links no longer work. Hope this helps.
    Denominational Sites
     
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  6. Strannik

    Strannik Member

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    Thank you very much.
     
  7. Salty

    Salty 20,000 Posts Club
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    ... For the most part, American Baptists hold to a position of total abstention from the beverage use of alcohol. This is one of the reasons why Baptist churches use unfermented grape juice and not wine for the Lord's Supper commemoration. ''...[/QUOTE]

    Just as a point of clarification... you are talking about Baptists in America -- as opposed to the American Baptist Churches in the USA ( formerly know as the Northern Baptist Convention) In fact the ABC is more liberal in members consuming alcohol as a beverage.
     
  8. Strannik

    Strannik Member

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    Just as a point of clarification... you are talking about Baptists in America -- as opposed to the American Baptist Churches in the USA ( formerly know as the Northern Baptist Convention) In fact the ABC is more liberal in members consuming alcohol as a beverage.[/QUOTE]

    How many Baptist unions, conventions, or associations do you have in total?
     
  9. rlvaughn

    rlvaughn Well-Known Member
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    This may vary according to the criteria used to count them, but over fifty, in my opinion.
     
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  10. Salty

    Salty 20,000 Posts Club
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  11. Strannik

    Strannik Member

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    Wow. Why so much? have you tried to unite at least in the proximity of views?
     
  12. Strannik

    Strannik Member

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    I'm in shoke. Why so much??? It feels like a lot of people ran away just because of the color of the buttons on their jackets.
     
  13. rlvaughn

    rlvaughn Well-Known Member
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    The very best categorization of Baptists in the U.S. has been done by Albert W. Wardin. He understands their historical, doctrinal, geographical, and other connections and divides them thusly. His most recent book is The Twelve Baptist Tribes in the USA: A Historical and Statistical Analysis, where he sorts them into twelve basic groupings:
    1. Ecumenical Mainline
    2. National (African-American)
    3. Conservative Evangelical (Northern)
    4. Fundamental (Northern)
    5. Conservative Evangelical (Southern)
    6. Fundamental (Southern)
    7. Landmark
    8. General/Free Will
    9. Old-Time
    10. Primitivists
    11. Progressive Primitive
    12. Neo-Calvinist
    Within these twelve tribes, Wardin discusses 53 Baptist bodies, large and small -- from the (at that time, 2007) 42,723 churches of the Southern Baptist Convention to the historically significant General Six-Principle Baptists, at the time reduced to one church.

    As an aside, and of possible interest to you, he is author of Gottfried F. Alf: Pioneer of the Baptist Movement in Poland. If I remember correctly, Brother Wardin is a descendant of Gottfried Alf.
     
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  14. Salty

    Salty 20,000 Posts Club
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    A lot has to do with individual soul liberty
    Here is a list of some of the differences:

    Proper dress of attendees: Some think women must wear dresses, and men must wear suits and ties - women must have long hair and men must have short hair --------- others not so much

    Music - some only use traditional musisc - other like modern christian music.

    End times - Pre-Trib, post trib, mid trib, ect

    Women preachers - some okay - others say no

    Separation - some are very strict as to who they will fellowship with - others - will fellowship with just about anyone

    Some do not believe in Sunday School - other is fine

    Some prefer large churches - some only small churches

    Some have strict standards for teachers and leaders - other have few standards.

    Some say you cant dance, go to movies, or smoke - others it is ok

    Some are King James Bible only (English speaking) others use many other versions

    Some take the entire Bible literally - others not so much

    Some believe in closed communion, others open communion

    Some think we should be very involved in politics - others think we should not even vote.

    Some think it is best fro a pastor to have a college degree as well as seminary - other -no need for higher education

    Most believe in Eternal security, a few do not

    Some think Baptism should be immediate - others think a person should wait a period of time.

    This is just a short list - many many differences...
     
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  15. Salty

    Salty 20,000 Posts Club
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  16. Strannik

    Strannik Member

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  17. rlvaughn

    rlvaughn Well-Known Member
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    No, those are Unitarians. The Universalists believe that God's redemption is for every person who ever lives. No one will be lost. All will be saved.

    Many Universalists are also Unitarians, but that is not the case of the Primitive Baptist Universalists.
     
  18. Strannik

    Strannik Member

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    [QUOTE = "rlvaughn, post: 2683457, member: 969"] Самая лучшая категоризация баптистов в США была сделана Альбертом У. Уордином. Он понимает их исторические, доктринальные, географические и другие связи и таким образом разделяет их. Его последняя книга - Двенадцать баптистских племен в США: исторический и статистический анализ , где он разбивает их на двенадцать основных групп:
    1. Вселенская магистраль
    2. Национальный (афроамериканец)
    3. Консервативная евангелическая (северная)
    4. Фундаментальный (Северный)
    5. Консервативная евангелическая (южная)
    6. Фундаментальный (Южный)
    7. Ориентир
    8. Общие / Свободная воля
    9. Старое время
    10. Примитивисты
    11. Прогрессивный примитив
    12. Неокальвинист
    В рамках этих двенадцати племен Вардин обсуждает 53 баптистских тела, больших и малых - от (на тот момент, 2007 г.) 42 723 церквей Южного баптистского конвента до исторически значимых баптистов с общими шестипринципными принципами, которые в то время сводились к одной церкви.

    Кроме того, он является автором книги « Готфрид Ф. Альф: пионер баптистского движения в Польше», который может вас заинтересовать . Если я правильно помню, брат Вардин - потомок Готфрида Альфа. [/ QUOTE]

    И какой смысл в постоянном разделении баптистов в Соединенных Штатах? Разве они не понимают, что все раздоры и расколы исходят от сатаны?
    Мы могли бы объединиться хотя бы в непосредственной близости от конфессий.
     
  19. Strannik

    Strannik Member

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    [QUOTE = "rlvaughn, post: 2683537, member: 969"] Нет, это унитарии. Универсалисты верят, что Божье искупление предназначено каждому, кто когда-либо живёт. Никто не погибнет. Все будет спасено.

    Многие универсалисты также являются унитарианцами, но это не относится к примитивным баптистским универсалистам. [/ QUOTE]
    The HORROR!!!! How everything is running. God forbid that such a thing appeared in Russia. God forbid.
     
  20. rlvaughn

    rlvaughn Well-Known Member
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    Hoping the translator got these right.
    To some extent moral and theological disagreements, and to some extent stubbornness and pride.
    I expect coming persecution will bring us (at least conservative Baptists) closer together. We have had plenty of freedom to pursue our own devices.
    Yes, that happens sometimes, but here we are more prone to divide that unite. There is often a mentality that you must choose one group or another, and that you should not cooperate across those lines.
     
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