The case of blaspheming the Holy Spirit is unmistakenly clear. However, all others, have you ever heard me claim that I know who is the elect and who is not? Do you really expect me to make that decision when it is above my pay grade???????? That would require omnscience.
If we were sitting across from each other in Starbucks I would hope you would not take my words and interpret them negatively and in such a way to build your own arguments???
The doctrine of Hardening
Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by The Biblicist, Dec 11, 2013.
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The Biblicist Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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I've actually known people who have denied the HS and one youth I knew even took the 'blasphemy dare' where kids would purposefully blaspheme the HS to mock God. He later become a Christian and now is a pastor...a Calvinistic one ironically enough.
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The Biblicist Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
1. Light in the MIND
2. Hatred/malice in the heart
3. Intentional accusation of the HOly Spirit's works to the devil.
Your view of this sin does not fit these requirements and yes, I can provide contextual based evidence in Matthew 12 for each one.
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We know this is true because grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.
He came to His own and His own killed Him.
Conclusion: Men, by nature, hate grace and truth because they hate God.
They hated Him in the OT.
They hated Him in the NT.
They hate Him today.
There is nothing new under the sun.
The nature of biblical grace is that which is the power of God unto salvation freely given to those whom the Lord will have mercy.
Biblical grace actually saves men to the uttermost.
Man, by nature, is the walking dead, un-able to do anything spiritually good.
God is not in the business of helping those who can help themselves as you Arminians teach.
Rather He is in the business of supernaturally and miraculously making alive in Christ that which was dead, damned and absolutely helpless. -
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The Biblicist Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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The Biblicist said: ↑4. Every cognant fallen member of the human race is in the process of hardening.Click to expand...
Not all do that.
And the very fact that hardening exists shows that the starting point is not "fully hardened".
A dead man cannot harden himself further.
in Christ,
Bob -
Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known MemberSite SupporterBobRyan said: ↑Only if they are living in determined rebellion against God.
Not all do that.
And the very fact that hardening exists shows that the starting point is not "fully hardened".
A dead man cannot harden himself further.
in Christ,
BobClick to expand... -
The Biblicist Well-Known MemberSite SupporterBobRyan said: ↑Only if they are living in determined rebellion against God.Click to expand...
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The Biblicist said: ↑Where does scripture say this (Rom. 8:7)Click to expand...
All men in their fallen state - Rom. 8:8Click to expand... -
The Biblicist Well-Known MemberSite SupporterSkandelon said: ↑Nope, I read it again and it says nothing about mankind hating grace and truth. It says the sinful mind is hostile and can't submit to the law, but nothing is mentioned about grace, gospel, or inability of mankind to respond when confronted with the Holy Spirit wrought truth of God. That is all stuff you impose onto the text in order to support your premise.Click to expand...
Skandelon said: ↑If you believe, as I do, that the truth of the gospel is indeed all that scripture says that it is (powerful, piercing to the soul, life-changing), then that fact actually makes a difference.Click to expand...
1 Thessalonians explcitly states that the gospel comes to some "IN MUCH ASSURANCE" but surely you can see it does not come to all that way?? Neither does it come to all "in power or in the Spirit" any more than it comes to all "in much assurance." It is obvious it comes to many "in word only" and this is a complete repudiation of your whole system. -
The Biblicist said: ↑Your response is irrational as well as unbiblical as you are demanding the fruits of the Spirit can be attributed to those "in the flesh."Click to expand...
This is the very center of our disagreement so how can you seriously even include me in your erroneous position????Click to expand...
1 Thessalonians explcitly states that the gospel comes to some "IN MUCH ASSURANCE" but surely you can see it does not come to all that way??Click to expand... -
The Biblicist Well-Known MemberSite SupporterSkandelon said: ↑This assumes that the 'fruit' has to be an effectual work of an indwelling spirit, verses a response to the spirit...a 'response' we are ultimately held 'responsible' to for as if we don't respond we will perish.Click to expand...
Skandelon said: ↑hh, so you deny that the truth of the gospel is indeed all that scripture says that it is (powerful, piercing to the soul, life-changing)???Click to expand...
Skandelon said: ↑I don't blame the response of some men .Click to expand...
Moreover, Paul is providing evidence concerning how they can "know" they are the elect (v. 4). -
The Biblicist said: ↑The flesh cannot respond by something foreign to its nature and yet that is the substance of your argument.Click to expand...
It never ever says that! It says it is the power "OF GOD" not of men!Click to expand...
The gospel is the POWER OF GOD. The gospel is the means through which God's power enables response.
It says the Word of God - meaning the living incarnate Word is omniscient where nothing is hidden from HIS sight not the written word of God.Click to expand...
Moreover, Paul is providing evidence concerning how they can "know" they are the elect (v. 4).Click to expand... -
The Biblicist Well-Known MemberSite SupporterSkandelon said: ↑My argument is that the flesh is enabled to respond to whatever God wants the flesh to be enabled to respond toClick to expand...
Skandelon said: ↑....and every note worthy Christian scholar throughout history has affirmed that God treats or holds men RESPONSE-ABLE to the gospel appeal.Click to expand...
Your usage is like demanding the English term "housewife" be understood as "hussy" as that is its etymoligical meaning.
Skandelon said: ↑There is no biblical reason to believeClick to expand...
No reason you want to acknowledge! However, there is plenty of Biblical support to believe it as "no man can come unto me" is a universal declaration of inability without which no exception clause would be even necessary to be stated if it were not universally true.
Skandelon said: ↑How does this address my words, "So you deny that the truth of the gospel is indeed all that scripture says that it is (powerful, piercing to the soul, life-changing)???"Click to expand...
Skandelon said: ↑The gospel is the means through which God's power enables response.Click to expand...
Skandelon said: ↑You are arguing either/or, I'm arguing both/and.Click to expand...
Skandelon said: ↑The scripture and the proclaimed gospel IS A WORK OF GOD.Click to expand...
This is the major probelm with decisionalism as they attempt to play the role only the Holy Spirit can play and pressuring people to make a decision and defining that as salvation.
Skandelon said: ↑God works THROUGH his chosen means, and the written/spoken truth are those chosen means.Click to expand...
15 For we are to God a sweet smell of Christ, in them that are saved, and in them that perish:
16 To the one we are the smell of death to death; and to the other the smell of life to life.
Skandelon said: ↑Right. And Paul, the Jewish apostles to the Gentiles, is spending most of his time fighting Judizers or those who reject Gentiles all together as not being 'chosen of God.' Thus, for Paul to argue that they too are 'chosen of God' makes perfect sense in that context, but that's from the corporate perspective, not the exclusive individualize perspective of western thought.Click to expand...
The gospel coming in "much assurance" is not a corporate experience but an individual experience. -
The Biblicist said: ↑If that had any truth to it there would be absolutely no need of any NEW CREATURE or a CREATIVE act or a NEW HEART as the old heart can just be enabled to do whatever God wanted it to do. However, that is not the teaching of Romans 7:14-25 or 8:7-8. The fallen nature is no more saved now than it was before the creative act of God. The flesh no more submits now to God any more than before the NEW CREATURE was created.Click to expand...
6 The LORD was grieved that he had made man on the earth, and his heart was filled with pain. 7 So the LORD said, "I will wipe mankind, whom I have created, from the face of the earth--men and animals, and creatures that move along the ground, and birds of the air--for I am grieved that I have made them." 8 But Noah found favor in the eyes of the LORD. 9 This is the account of Noah. Noah was a righteous man, blameless among the people of his time, and he walked with God.
Why was the Lord grieved that he had made man? And why did he find favor with Noah? Did God effectually give Noah a new heart making him favorable? If so, why didn't God simply make the people do what he desired them to do so as not to be grieved by them? The answer is RESPONSIBILITY.
You know that is not true in the sense you define "response-able" according to its etymological root meaning. They used the term in a completely different sense. They did not use the term "response-ability" or having ability to respond but used it in the sense of obligated to respond.Click to expand... -
Originally Posted by Protestant
Men, by nature, hate grace and truth because they hate God.Click to expand...Skandelon said: ↑Where does scripture say thisClick to expand...
The historic record expresses this truth through numerous examples:
- in the Garden by the disobedience of Adam.
- in the Great Flood by the disobedience of mankind.
- throughout pagan history by the worshiping of false gods.
- in the centuries of disobedience by Israel and her kings.
- and ultimately in the crucifixion of Christ, the Son of God, the greatest example of the evil of which man is capable.
The prophetic Word foretold the martyrdom of the Apostles and millions of saints throughout Church history.
This prophecy has been fulfilled as historic fact.
Doctrinally, this truth is stated quite succinctly:
Jesus is the Light of the world.
“And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.”
Conclusion: Every man does evil and therefore hates the Light, which is the grace and truth of God, thereby hating God who is grace and truth. (John 1:17)
"there is none that doeth good, no, not one." -
Skandelon said: ↑I have LOVED the message of grace and forgiveness ever since I can remember.Click to expand...
-- the truth of how we were saved
-- the truth that He does not owe grace to anyone
-- the truth that He does not will to give grace to all
-- the truth that He alone decides to whom He will give grace
-- the truth that grace is given to the underserving, not the deserving
-- the truth that grace is given to the helpless, not the able
Now, the idea of trying to keep the law, or merit salvation, I could see how that would frustrate or exasperate me and make me an enemy, but the gospel is good news.Click to expand...
Those who come to acknowledge their helplessness are those whom the Lord heals.
Did you find the Good Shepherd or did the Good Shepherd find you?
There is no question that He found me and forgave me much.
Did He forgive you much? -
The Biblicist Well-Known MemberSite SupporterSkandelon said: ↑So, in this text:
6 The LORD was grieved that he had made man on the earth, and his heart was filled with pain. 7 So the LORD said, "I will wipe mankind, whom I have created, from the face of the earth--men and animals, and creatures that move along the ground, and birds of the air--for I am grieved that I have made them." 8 But Noah found favor in the eyes of the LORD. 9 This is the account of Noah. Noah was a righteous man, blameless among the people of his time, and he walked with God.Click to expand...
5 And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
Skandelon said: ↑And why did he find favor with Noah?Click to expand...
Skandelon said: ↑Did God effectually give Noah a new heart making him favorable?Click to expand...
Skandelon said: ↑If so, why didn't God simply make the people do what he desired them to do so as not to be grieved by them?Click to expand...
Skandelon said: ↑Ok, I'll use your definition. God treats us as if we are 'obligated to respond' thus strongly implying the ability to do that which he obligates, especially in light of the FACT that we will be held accountable for that response with eternal damnation.Click to expand...
P.S. I am worn out, I am an old man and I have had enough mental exercise for the day. See ya tomorrow. -
Skandelon said: ↑Who is they?Click to expand...
“They” is “us”……..all humans born of the flesh.
Because I read about a lot of faithful people (great cloud of witnesses) who were sinners, but forgiven...and loved the truth of God's grace.Click to expand...
The faithful people were and are the objects of God’s eternal love.
His unconditional love is manifested in the absolute predestination unto salvation of his beloved Elect.
I think we disagree as to why some believe and others do not.Click to expand...
However, there are more areas of disagreement:
--The purpose of the Atonement
--The purpose of the Gospel
--The eternal purpose of creating man
--the gravity of original sin
--the perfection of God in carrying out His eternal purposes
…..to name a few.
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