The Dr. Oz Bait for Vaccines: Why Did He Do It?

[Martin]

I have made no claims. Posting and article is not equal to making a claim of personal opinion or fact. You don't like it so you work to distract from it. It is a dirty trick and you should be embarrassed.

==Honestly, I'm not buying that (bold) excuse for a second. You posted the information in the OP and since you did not offer any statement of disagreement in the OP, we are forced to assume that you agree with the information you posted. In my original reply I posted a reply to the misinformation in the OP. As of this point, however, you have not responded to my reply.

If you don't wish to take a flu shot, or the H1N1 shot, that is your business. I pray that you are healthy and don't get sick. The people I know who have had H1N1 will quickly tell you that they would prefer the shot to the H1N1. As for me, I get a seasonal flu shot every year and have never had any negative reactions to the vaccine nor have I contracted the seasonal flu. In fact, I only know one person who has had a documented reaction to the flu shot and even then the reaction had more to do with drugs he was taking than the shot itself. Per my doctor's instructions, who I trust far more than you or any so-called doctor on some unknown website, I will be getting the H1N1 shot as well. Do I expect to have any trouble? No. The H1N1 is made via the same method as the seasonal, it is a tried and true method just with a different flu strain (which they do yearly anyway).

Again, if you don't wish to get the flu or H1N1 vaccine that is fine but please don't go around spreading misinformation trying to scare people.

 

[Revmitchell]

we are forced to assume that you agree with the information you posted.

This is a childish fallacy that you need to support your derail. It is not even logical. And really just who cares what you are buying? You are simply floating around in the delusion of your own self importance.

 

[Martin]

This is a childish fallacy that you need to support your derail. It is not even logical. And really just who cares what you are buying? You are simply floating around in the delusion of your own self importance.

==Assuming that you support the information you post without commentary is not a fallacy, it is common sense. You posted the article and now you are trying your best to avoid defending or supporting what you posted. You can say what you wish about me, I don't really care, but the facts are the facts. You want to talk about the flu shot or the H1N1 shot? I tried to get back to that topic, yet you ignored it. That is telling...

My problem with the OP is that it is spreading false information. I used documentation to show the logical and factual errors contained within the OP. Again, if you don't wish to get the vaccinations that is fine. But please don't aid others in spreading false and misleading information.

 

[Revmitchell]

==Assuming that you support the information you post without commentary is not a fallacy, it is common sense. You posted the article and now you are trying your best to avoid defending or supporting what you posted. You can say what you wish about me, I don't really care, but the facts are the facts. You want to talk about the flu shot or the H1N1 shot? I tried to get back to that topic, yet you ignored it. That is telling...

My problem with the OP is that it is spreading false information. I used documentation to show the logical and factual errors contained within the OP. Again, if you don't wish to get the vaccinations that is fine. But please don't aid others in spreading false and misleading information.

1. I have stated my position
2. Assuming is never necessary unless you have an agenda
3. Where is the documentation you provided.
4. I do not simply trust organizations like the CDC or WHO just because they say something so what?
5. No one has proven any factual errors it is only assumed by you (which is a habit of late) who wants to follow the before mentioned organizations blindly
6. I will state my position once again. I do not know who is telling the truth on one side or the other but I do know the studies on the H1N1 are not yet completed and they are wanting to go ahead and vaccinate with untested vaccinations. Add to the the studies are done devoid of the adjuncts which are associated with all kinds of illnesses. Add to that Ron Paul does not support them either. There are real and necessary questions. This current scare of the swine flu is a repeat in history and the first time it amounted to nothing.

So just because I post something that questions your personal opinion does not mean I support it. In case you haven't noticed I have no problem stating my position when I am convinced of something. Unlike liberals I do not need to run and hide my positions. Not sure how you missed that.

Oh and it is not a given that the op is false.

 

[Nonsequitur]

==Assuming that you support the information you post without commentary is not a fallacy, it is common sense. You posted the article and now you are trying your best to avoid defending or supporting what you posted. You can say what you wish about me, I don't really care, but the facts are the facts. You want to talk about the flu shot or the H1N1 shot? I tried to get back to that topic, yet you ignored it. That is telling...

My problem with the OP is that it is spreading false information. I used documentation to show the logical and factual errors contained within the OP. Again, if you don't wish to get the vaccinations that is fine. But please don't aid others in spreading false and misleading information.

Uh...I'll play, and without any 'documentation'. Your 'problem' with the OP Martin? How about my previous post? How about, what influenza germs are you going to innoculate for this year? Guess what? It was already "LAST" years scare! Remember LAST years scare? Swine? Oh wait, this is swine too, only worse. Next year it will be Legionaires disease again.
In my day, (when I went to school trudging uphill to and from home, both ways, in the snow, it was Asian Flu, (and all the others in the '70's). If not irradicated, it would wipe out humanity.
Flu shots.
The best way to continue junk medicene until they get a gig on the infomercial network.
(Satire)
Gee, Dr. M. when I get a 'Flu' shot, I feel all bad for 3 weeks and then feel better. Is there anything I can do to not feel that way?
Yes, there is Mrs. Al A. Tide, try not to fall for all the stuff you hear on T.V. and quit being such a dip.
(O.K., I'm running out of ideas folks, think you can help me out?)

 

[donnA]

they aren't even making enough for everyone, so how can anyone say everyone should be immoculated, our states only gottena few thousand so far, and will not recieve enough for everyone.
Why people can not be allowed to make their own medical decisions I don't know, those who would force drugs on people who do not want them I am sure are the same oens who support killing grandma becasue she's old and in the way, worthless, and taking organs form living people.

 

[Martin]

1. I have stated my position
2. Assuming is never necessary unless you have an agenda
3. Where is the documentation you provided.
4. I do not simply trust organizations like the CDC or WHO just because they say something so what?

==That last comment (#4) tells me you have seen the documentation I provided. The article you posted claimed that there had been a spike in pediatric flu deaths since 2003. Since the CDC is the organization that tracks those numbers I went to their stats to see if the claim was true. It was not. Also I showed, from the CDC stats, that there are other possible reasons why some might think the number of pediatric flu deaths since 2003. You can return to my original reply for the details. The article's assertion that the flu shot causes more problems than it solves is not supported by the facts.

5. No one has proven any factual errors it is only assumed by you (which is a habit of late) who wants to follow the before mentioned organizations blindly

==I am not following any organization "blindly". As I stated above, I have talked to my personal physician about the matter and they said I should get the vaccine. Also I have done my own research in to the matter. Based on that information, I will get the vaccine. That is not blindly following anyone.

However I am certainly not going to get my information from any unknown doctor who is posting on the internet. I get my medical information from my own doctor or various official medical sources (medical books, etc).

6. I will state my position once again. I do not know who is telling the truth on one side or the other but I do know the studies on the H1N1 are not yet completed and they are wanting to go ahead and vaccinate with untested vaccinations.

==There is some truth to that. However we must weigh the alternative. The alternative is no vaccine, unnecessary infections and deaths. If there is a way to avoid that we should do it. The H1N1 vaccine is new but it is old. It is created the same way the seasonal vaccines are created. While there are always risks with any medical procedure, in my opinion the benefits outweigh the risks with this vaccine. The people I know who have had H1N1 agree (from hard experience).

Add to the the studies are done devoid of the adjuncts which are associated with all kinds of illnesses. Add to that Ron Paul does not support them either. There are real and necessary questions. This current scare of the swine flu is a repeat in history and the first time it amounted to nothing.

==I can't make personal medical decisions based on Ron Paul's opinion. While I respect his views, I cannot simply accept them. I have to go with the information I have learned through personal study combined with the information I have received from my personal physician.

So just because I post something that questions your personal opinion does not mean I support it. In case you haven't noticed I have no problem stating my position when I am convinced of something. Unlike liberals I do not need to run and hide my positions. Not sure how you missed that.

==The assertion in the OP that the flu vaccine causes more problems than it cures, and that there has been a spike in pediatric flu deaths since 2003, is simply not true. That is not my opinion. That is false and misleading information.

 

[Martin]

what influenza germs are you going to innoculate for this year? Guess what? It was already "LAST" years scare!

==H1N1 is not part of the seasonal flu vaccine. The seasonal flu vaccine is based on previous flu patterns and forecasts. Is it perfect? No. Is it 100% protection? No. Is it a level of defense that is better than nothing? Yes.

If not irradicated, it would wipe out humanity.
Flu shots.
The best way to continue junk medicene until they get a gig on the infomercial network.

==Have you studied the history of the flu (strains)? It is indeed a very deadly illness. Could it wipe out the human race? I don't know, but I do know that it has killed many, many people. Vaccines are not perfect, but they are better than nothing (for most people).

 

[Martin]

they aren't even making enough for everyone, so how can anyone say everyone should be immoculated,

==Everyone should not recieve the vaccine. Like the seasonal flu shot, the H1N1 vaccine is grown with eggs. So those who are allergic to eggs should not receive the vaccine. There are other people who should not get the vaccine. People should talk to their personal physician before taking the H1N1 vaccine.

Why people can not be allowed to make their own medical decisions I don't know, those who would force drugs on people who do not want them I am sure are the same oens who support killing grandma becasue she's old and in the way, worthless, and taking organs form living people.

==At this point in time, nobody is being forced to take the vaccine. It is optional. However if there were a national emergency such as in 1918 people might be forced to take the vaccine or be isolated from society. That would be done to protect people not to kill them.

 

[donnA]

==Everyone should not recieve the vaccine. Like the seasonal flu shot, the H1N1 vaccine is grown with eggs. So those who are allergic to eggs should not receive the vaccine. There are other people who should not get the vaccine. People should talk to their personal physician before taking the H1N1 vaccine.




==At this point in time, nobody is being forced to take the vaccine. It is optional. However if there were a national emergency such as in 1918 people might be forced to take the vaccine or be isolated from society. That would be done to protect people not to kill them.

So everyone would be FORCED to be shot with an untested drug, and you just said everyone could not take it.
Protecting me means I chose whether or not I want to shot with an untested drug. And holding people prisoner is illegal.

 

[Johnv]

H1N1 is not part of the seasonal flu vaccine.

Something neds to be clarified here. Seasonal flu vaccines usually contain an H1N1 vaccine. However, the Swine Flu is not H1N1, it's H1N1a. The standard H1N1 vaccine doesn't guard against H1N1a. They're two separate viruses.

 

[Revmitchell]

==That last comment (#4) tells me you have seen the documentation I provided. The article you posted claimed that there had been a spike in pediatric flu deaths since 2003. Since the CDC is the organization that tracks those numbers I went to their stats to see if the claim was true. It was not. Also I showed, from the CDC stats, that there are other possible reasons why some might think the number of pediatric flu deaths since 2003. You can return to my original reply for the details. The article's assertion that the flu shot causes more problems than it solves is not supported by the facts.

The CDC is not the only organization tracking that.

==I am not following any organization "blindly". As I stated above, I have talked to my personal physician about the matter and they said I should get the vaccine. Also I have done my own research in to the matter. Based on that information, I will get the vaccine. That is not blindly following anyone.

However I am certainly not going to get my information from any unknown doctor who is posting on the internet. I get my medical information from my own doctor or various official medical sources (medical books, etc).

Well you are welcome to do what you want but you engaged me with an attack for posting information. You have only quoted one source and no specific article or publication. Your various medical sources and personal physician do not impress me. So if you are going to engage me on this issue you will have to do better than that.

==There is some truth to that. However we must weigh the alternative. The alternative is no vaccine, unnecessary infections and deaths. If there is a way to avoid that we should do it. The H1N1 vaccine is new but it is old. It is created the same way the seasonal vaccines are created. While there are always risks with any medical procedure, in my opinion the benefits outweigh the risks with this vaccine. The people I know who have had H1N1 agree (from hard experience).

This is false. The alternatives are to eat healthy, get plenty of excersize
and sleep. And I understand that getting plenty of vitamin D is also key of which the primary source is the sun. Which is why the flu is so prevalent during the winter months because we are outside less and our vitamin D levels drop significantly.

==I can't make personal medical decisions based on Ron Paul's opinion. While I respect his views, I cannot simply accept them. I have to go with the information I have learned through personal study combined with the information I have received from my personal physician.

Look you engaged me and with a broad brushed attack. So I am not worried about about what views you can respect. If you want to engage me further and justify your original attack then you need to do better.

==The assertion in the OP that the flu vaccine causes more problems than it cures, and that there has been a spike in pediatric flu deaths since 2003, is simply not true. That is not my opinion. That is false and misleading information.

And yet you have not proved otherwise only referred to your doctor and nameless books. But again the real problem is with the adjuncts and preservatives in the vaccination which are linked to autism and severe brain damage of various kinds. Add to that the H1N1 trials are not yet completed and are being done devoid of the adjuncts and preservatives that are linked to so many cancers, autism and autoimmune diseases.

 

[Johnv]

The alternatives are to eat healthy, get plenty of excersize and sleep.

This is always sage advice. But it doesn't prevent a person from contracting a virus. What it will do is allow the body to recover after being exposed to the virus. Many people get the season flu and common cold without ever realizing they've gotten the virus.

And I understand that getting plenty of vitamin D is also key of which the primary source is the sun. Which is why the flu is so prevalent during the winter months because we are outside less and our vitamin D levels drop significantly.

That's not it. The reason viruses spread faster in colder months is twofold. First, people tend to be statistically in closer contact with each other in colder months. That allows viruses to spread from one person to another much more readily. The second reason is that viruses break down very quickly when airborn in warmer weather. In other words, they simply don't last as long. Colder weather gives airborn viruses a longer lifespan before contacting a new host.

 

[Martin]

So everyone would be FORCED to be shot with an untested drug, and you just said everyone could not take it.
Protecting me means I chose whether or not I want to shot with an untested drug. And holding people prisoner is illegal.

Your reply makes me wonder if you actually read what I wrote. Nobody is forcing anyone to take any vaccine. As for the drug being untested, that is not totally true. The H1N1 vaccine is made the same way the seasonal flu vaccine is made. So it is not like they are starting from scratch.

 

[Martin]

The CDC is not the only organization tracking that.

==Ok, show me the numbers that support the claim in the op. I guess we are back to where we started. Me asking you to provide some sort of evidence.

Well you are welcome to do what you want but you engaged me with an attack for posting information.

==I engaged you for posting misleading information. You replied by trying to separate yourself from the article you posted.

You have only quoted one source and no specific article or publication. Your various medical sources and personal physician do not impress me. So if you are going to engage me on this issue you will have to do better than that.

==The CDC source I linked to has links to flu stats for the past many years (LINK). I would also like to mention, as a point of fact, that my source is far more credible than some doctor who nobody knows. My personal physician is not suppose to impress you. The point I was making was that I was not blindly following the CDC. I have done my own homework and discussed the matter with my own physician. That is what we are suppose to do anytime we have health questions.

This is false. The alternatives are to eat healthy, get plenty of excersize and sleep. And I understand that getting plenty of vitamin D is also key of which the primary source is the sun. Which is why the flu is so prevalent during the winter months because we are outside less and our vitamin D levels drop significantly.

==All of that is good and nobody would deny the importance of taking such steps during flu season (better yet, year around). There are many things we can do to reduce our chances of getting sick. The points you raised are all good as are hand washing, not being around those who are sick, eating right, and more. Getting the vaccine, seasonal or H1N1, only adds to the protection those good practices provide. No matter how healthy people are, without the vaccine more people would get sick and die than with the vaccine. Why? Because fewer people would have immunity to the strain. The people I know who have contracted H1N1 are very healthy people. Other than the handwashing part, they probably had both of us beat. However they still got sick. Maybe the vaccine would have helped them, maybe not, but it most likely would not have hurt them.

And yet you have not proved otherwise only referred to your doctor and nameless books.

==Of course, that is not true. Just return to my original reply and you will find the CDC stats on flu levels, pediatric deaths, etc.

But again the real problem is with the adjuncts and preservatives in the vaccination which are linked to autism and severe brain damage of various kinds.

==Evidence to back up those claims?

Add to that the H1N1 trials are not yet completed and are being done devoid of the adjuncts and preservatives that are linked to so many cancers, autism and autoimmune diseases.

==Again, where is your evidence that the seasonal flu vaccines are connected to cancers, autism, and autoimmune diseases.

 

[Revmitchell]

==Ok, show me the numbers that support the claim in the op. I guess we are back to where we started. Me asking you to provide some sort of evidence.

I do not need to support the op.

==I engaged you for posting misleading information. You replied by trying to separate yourself from the article you posted.

You engaged me making that claim and I have had no need to separate my self as I never attached myself to the op.

==The CDC source I linked to has links to flu stats for the past many years (LINK). I would also like to mention, as a point of fact, that my source is far more credible than some doctor who nobody knows.

To you it is. But that is a personal choice and rather than engage in adhominem about the source deal with the info instead.

My personal physician is not suppose to impress you. The point I was making was that I was not blindly following the CDC. I have done my own homework and discussed the matter with my own physician. That is what we are suppose to do anytime we have health questions.

Which fails to provide any evidence to the contrary

==All of that is good and nobody would deny the importance of taking such steps during flu season (better yet, year around). There are many things we can do to reduce our chances of getting sick. The points you raised are all good as are hand washing, not being around those who are sick, eating right, and more. Getting the vaccine, seasonal or H1N1, only adds to the protection those good practices provide. No matter how healthy people are, without the vaccine more people would get sick and die than with the vaccine. Why? Because fewer people would have immunity to the strain. The people I know who have contracted H1N1 are very healthy people. Other than the handwashing part, they probably had both of us beat. However they still got sick. Maybe the vaccine would have helped them, maybe not, but it most likely would not have hurt them.

Thanks for proving my point. The uncertainty mixed with the known dangers of the adjuncts and preservatives like Thimersol to me makes it not worth it.

==Evidence to back up those claims?

http://www.nationalautismassociation.org/thimerosal.php

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7006980/

http://www.lewrockwell.com/miller/miller14.html

http://www.naturalnews.com/011764.html

Add to that the many other links I have provided on this board in the last day or so.

 

[Revmitchell]

This is my last post until next week sometime. I have a trip to make

 

[Martin]

http://www.nationalautismassociation.org/thimerosal.php

==The site does not prove that autism is caused by the influenza vaccine. The site only states that such a relationship might exist due to

"A growing number of scientists and researchers believe that a relationship between the increase in neurodevelopmental disorders of autism, attention deficit hyperactive disorder, and speech or language delay, and the increased use of thimerosal in vaccines is plausible and deserves more scrutiny."

The site clearly states that further research is needed:

"There is inadequate research regarding ethylmercury neurotoxicity and
nephrotoxicity. There is inadequate research regarding the relationship between autism and the use of mercury-containing vaccines."

This issue would mainly change the recommendations for young children, not adults. If proven, it would change the makeup of the vaccine but it would not change the need for a influenza vaccine.

The MSNBC story also lists mercury in the vaccines as a possible problem, but again, it is clear that such a link has not been made. It is just a possibility.

I hardly think that LewRockwell.com is a credible source. It is right up there with worldnetdaily. The Natural Health website is also not credible. Sure it appeals to a certain segment of society, but it can hardly be considered a solid source for medical information.

It seems to me the "evidence" you put forward either (a) does not go as far as your claims do or (b) is from questionable sources.

 

[Johnv]

Add to that the many other links I have provided on this board in the last day or so.

I can post no less than 60 links to sites that claim the World Trade Center was was destroyed by the Bush Administration. That doesn't make the claim more credible.

The site does not prove that autism is caused by the influenza vaccine.

More to the point, there is no evidence whatsoever that a link between vaccines and autism exists.

 

[Revmitchell]

==The site does not prove that autism is caused by the influenza vaccine. The site only states that such a relationship might exist due to

"A growing number of scientists and researchers believe that a relationship between the increase in neurodevelopmental disorders of autism, attention deficit hyperactive disorder, and speech or language delay, and the increased use of thimerosal in vaccines is plausible and deserves more scrutiny."

The site clearly states that further research is needed:

"There is inadequate research regarding ethylmercury neurotoxicity and
nephrotoxicity. There is inadequate research regarding the relationship between autism and the use of mercury-containing vaccines."

This issue would mainly change the recommendations for young children, not adults. If proven, it would change the makeup of the vaccine but it would not change the need for a influenza vaccine.

The MSNBC story also lists mercury in the vaccines as a possible problem, but again, it is clear that such a link has not been made. It is just a possibility.

I hardly think that LewRockwell.com is a credible source. It is right up there with worldnetdaily. The Natural Health website is also not credible. Sure it appeals to a certain segment of society, but it can hardly be considered a solid source for medical information.

It seems to me the "evidence" you put forward either (a) does not go as far as your claims do or (b) is from questionable sources.

You seem to be attributing to me more than I have said. I said I do not know either way. That said I am not going to dismiss information just because I do not like it based on the source. That is ad hominem and itself not a credible argument. The concerns are real and should not be dismissed so easily. And as a result of this last post of yours I am not convinced you have done your research. You are not credible as you want to find a reason to dismiss what you do not like rather than give careful consideration.