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The Effects Of Calvinism On Scripture

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by MB, Dec 10, 2019.

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  1. Scott Downey

    Scott Downey Well-Known Member

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    Your misusing those verses entirely saying they refer to all mankind.
    What exactly is your identity, this world or the beloved elect who will be saved?
    Peter earlier in the chapter describes the fate of the world of unbelievers, they scoff and are wicked and Peter says there destruction is certain. Peter contrasts those unsaved wicked with those who are beloved by God, that God is not willing any of His beloved elect perish, but that all of them come to repentance. Jesus also says the same thought, especially in v39.

    John 6
    37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.
    38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.

    39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.
    40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”
     
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  2. Scott Downey

    Scott Downey Well-Known Member

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    Peter is describing 2 groups, first these wicked scoffers, the ungodly persons, who are reserved for judgement of hell fire.
    And in v8-9, Peter is talking to the beloved, who are elect to be saved, that God is not willing that any of them perish, but that all repent and believe in His son. (predestination again of the church).
    Peter is not identifying with the wicked here as God being long suffering 'towards us', the same group Peter includes himself in are those to whom Peter is addressing his letter, that God will save them all, those who are the beloved elect to be saved.

    And then the 'promise', God's promise is He will destroy the wicked in hell, and that He will save His people from their sins giving them eternal life, even though things seem to be taking a long long time to occur.

    7 But the heavens and the earth which are now preserved by the same word, are reserved for fire until the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

    8 But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.
     
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  3. Scott Downey

    Scott Downey Well-Known Member

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    The ungodly are not of the Father.
    The saved, they are of God and hear God speak as He has begotten them again according to His mercy and love for them..
    God has given to 'us' an understanding to know Christ as the Truth.
    God has not given that understanding to those of the world, the ungodly, the scoffers.
    John the apostle confirms what Peter teaches in 2 Peter 3, that the 'us' God is longsuffering towards, are those He will save.

    1 John 5:19 We know that we are of God, and the whole world lies under the sway of the wicked one.

    1 John 5:20 And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us an understanding, that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life.
     
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  4. 1689Dave

    1689Dave Well-Known Member

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    I think it is beyond obvious the bible is nothing more than a giant Rorschach test for most readers. You can make it say whatever you want. But if we study the historic creeds, hammered out over centuries of debate with heretics, we have a pretty good idea of what the bible says.

    I was a teenage arminian dispensationalist Pentecostal after Christ saved me. So I spent my time trying to prove those doctrines, reading them into scripture until I could take no more of the confusion and contradictions.

    From there I wondered where I might find truth. And went to where the debates were the most intense in history. This placed me in the area of Reformed Theology and the Ecumeical Creeds.

    After spending years there, I came out closest to the Reformed Baptists. But believing only the first 3 points of Calvinism according to Dort, are true to scripture. Even Calvin rejects point 3. So I go with Calvinism where it doesn't affect scripture but clarifies it instead.
     
  5. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Of course you are correct SD.
    Some people have no desire to see what the scriptures actually say.
    They make believe they can ascribe their own personal meaning to the verses rather than what the writers actually taught by the Spirit.
    They look at the words but without any real Spiritual illumination.
    The Flesh can be very religious.
     
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  6. MartyF

    MartyF Well-Known Member

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    You and iconoclast are being intellectually dishonest.

    You did not make the same comment about bigotry when 1689Dave posted the same title with "Free Will" replacing Calvinism.
     
  7. Particular

    Particular Well-Known Member

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    We disagree on this:
    No man can reject the drawing (dragging) of God. When God wills, God accomplishes his will. There are no exceptions.
    Our difference is this:
    I believe God is in complete and full control over every aspect of His creation.
    You believe humans have the individual authority and power to thwart God and stop His will from being accomplished.

    There is no issue of evil. God cannot be evil. But...you declare that if God is fully Sovereign and His will is always fulfilled, it therefore makes God evil.
    You cannot fathom that your view is filled with arrogance. You cannot imagine that your view judges God, based upon your human opinion of what is good or evil. You cannot imagine that what you do is you place your self upon the throne and make God your servant who waits upon your will before He can act.

    MB, this issue is entirely about the arrogance of your doctrine that elevates humanity over God.

    I wish and pray that the eyes of your heart would be enlightened by the Spirit of God because you proclaim in ignorance. May God the King have mercy and grace upon your naivete.
     
  8. Particular

    Particular Well-Known Member

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    Free will is a human philosophy.
    The observations of Calvin are up for debate. I disagree with some of Calvin's eschatology. His soteriology is solid. Why? Because his soteriology is factually declared in scripture. His eschatology is often allegorical and I find that approach wanting.
     
  9. Walpole

    Walpole Well-Known Member

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    Google "Judas Iscariot".

    Judas, before he would "fall away" (Acts 1:25), was explicitly called the following by our Blessed Lord / Scripture:

    - A "disciple" (Mt. 10:1)
    - An "Apostle" (Mt. 10:2-4)
    - "One of the twelve" (Luke 22:47)
    - Sent "to proclaim the Kingdom of God" (Luke 9:2)
    - "Chosen" (John 6:70)
    - A "sheep" (Mt. 10:16)
    - A "friend" (Mt. 26:50)

    Furthermore, Judas was predestined to reign and rule with Christ...

    "So Jesus said to them [the twelve], 'Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.'" Matthew 19:28

    ---> Judas not only resisted grace, but he resisted He who is the source of all grace. That fact pretty much destroys Calvinism.
     
  10. Walpole

    Walpole Well-Known Member

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    "But Didn't want to do anything without your consent, so that your good deed might not be out of obligation, but of your own free will." - Philemon 1:14

    If man is not free, he is not culpable for his actions, whether they be good or evil acts. Thus man cannot be rewarded for good acts, nor condemned for evil acts. You cannot have a moral universe without being free. Paradoxically, to believe otherwise makes the Incarnation itself an act contra-Logos.

    God did not make androids; He made man.
     
  11. MartyF

    MartyF Well-Known Member

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    Well, you have no clue what intellectual dishonesty is - so there is no need in continuing this.
     
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  12. Scott Downey

    Scott Downey Well-Known Member

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    Matthew 10, honestly, Jesus did not speak of all of them. He did identify Judas Iscariot as a DEVIL.
    And no devil would Jesus refer to as one of His sheep.
    16 “Behold, I send you out as sheep in the midst of wolves. Therefore be wise as serpents and harmless as doves.

    John 13:17-19 New King James Version (NKJV)
    17 If you know these things, blessed are you if you do them.
    Jesus Identifies His Betrayer
    18 “I do not speak concerning all of you. I know whom I have chosen; but that the Scripture may be fulfilled, ‘He who eats bread with Me has lifted up his heel against Me.’ 19 Now I tell you before it comes, that when it does come to pass, you may believe that I am He.

    And of what was Christ speaking, well He was speaking only to His apostles and not Judas, even though Christ had chosen Him, but see this man was not to be saved as he was an unclean devil, he was chosen only to be the betrayer, there was never any plan of God or Christ for Judas Iscariot to be saved. Judas was never a saved believer in Christ, Judas Iscariot was unclean.

    10 Jesus said to him, “He who is bathed needs only to wash his feet, but is completely clean; and you are clean, but not all of you.” 11 For He knew who would betray Him; therefore He said, “You are not all clean.”

    John 6:70 Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is a devil?”
     
  13. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    You mean you're not going to accuse me of being a heretic. How nice of you. I am a born again Christian who loves God and truth with all my heart. I'm Baptist if that helps
    Actually Peter said:
    2Pe_3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance
    Nope there is no elect mentioned here in this verse you are adding to the text.
    Nope no elect here either.
    Please note this last verse you Quoted says nothing about the elect. But is does mention this"that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life;"
    Imagine everyone not just the elect but everyone
    MB
     
  14. church mouse guy

    church mouse guy Well-Known Member
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    You forgot to mention that you are a Biblical Creationist & a Truman Democrat on Israel & gung ho on inexpensive Christmas fun.
     
  15. Particular

    Particular Well-Known Member

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    Let us look at your assertion:

    When we read scripture of the account, it becomes very obvious that God ordained Judas for the role of betrayer. Not only does Jesus declare it to be so, but upon declaration God gives Satan the authority to enter Judas and thus bring about the betrayal.

    Your assertion is therefore shown to be false as scripture shows us that God willed the betrayal of Jesus and Judas fulfilled his role according to God's Sovereign plan.

    That may make you cringe and fight against scripture, but the evidence is in scripture.
    Your assertion is false.

    John 13:16-19,21-27

    Truly, truly, I say to you, a servantis not greater than his master, nor is a messenger greater than the one who sent him. If you know these things, blessed are you if you do them. I am not speaking of all of you; I know whom I have chosen. But the Scripture will be fulfilled,‘He who ate my bread has lifted his heel against me.’ I am telling you this now, before it takes place, that when it does take place you may believe that I am he.

    After saying these things, Jesus was troubled in his spirit, and testified, “Truly, truly, I say to you, one of you will betray me.” The disciples looked at one another, uncertain of whom he spoke. One of his disciples, whom Jesus loved, was reclining at table at Jesus’ side, so Simon Peter motioned to him to ask Jesus of whom he was speaking. So that disciple, leaning back against Jesus, said to him, “Lord, who is it?” Jesus answered, “It is he to whom I will give this morsel of bread when I have dipped it.” So when he had dipped the morsel, he gave it to Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot. Then after he had taken the morsel, Satan entered into him. Jesus said to him, “What you are going to do, do quickly.”


    Luke 22:3,21-22 Then Satan entered into Judas called Iscariot, who was of the number of the twelve.

    But behold, the hand of him who betrays me is with me on the table. For the Son of Man goes as it has been determined, but woe to that man by whom he is betrayed!”
     
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  16. Scott Downey

    Scott Downey Well-Known Member

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    Your talking about saved people whom the Lord had made free, if the Son makes you free, you shall be free indeed. But 'free' to do what? To be God's slave, a slave of righteousness. Man is not free, he always belongs to another. Either to sin as sin's slave (devil), or of righteousness, to be the slave of God.

    Romans 6
    20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. 21 What fruit did you have then in the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death. 22 But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life.

    There is no libertarian free will.
     
  17. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    I disagree that it's God's will that men cannot resist God's will. Men have done it since the beginning of time and it's recorded in scripture.
    Luk_13:34 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not!
    Maybe your just to blinded by your own pride to admit the truth of scripture that is why you try to rewrite it with every word that comes out of your mouth.You cannot show scripture to back up your claims because no scripture says what you claim.

    You are so dishonest shame on you. If God controls sin then how come there is so much of it How is it that you can sin is this also God's will?
    God's grace covers me and protects me from the darts of the wicked. Read your own post a see the hatred in your replies. Hatred just oozes. I from your pours. I'll keep praying for your resistance to the truth.
    MB
     
  18. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    Yes of course men know more than God. Well this is what you claim now since scripture proves you are wrong.
    MB
     
  19. Particular

    Particular Well-Known Member

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    Well, let's just look at Philemon, shall we?

    Tell me what this passage has to do with salvation?

    Philemon 1:10-16 I appeal to you for my child, Onesimus, whose father I became in my imprisonment. (Formerly he was useless to you, but now he is indeed useful to you and to me.) I am sending him back to you, sending my very heart. I would have been glad to keep him with me, in order that he might serve me on your behalf during my imprisonment for the gospel, but I preferred to do nothing without your consent in order that your goodness might not be by compulsion but of your own accord. For this perhaps is why he was parted from you for a while, that you might have him back forever, no longer as a bondservant but more than a bondservant, as a beloved brother—especially to me, but how much more to you, both in the flesh and in the Lord.

    It has been explained on innumerable occasions that humans have the capacity to make decisions, but there are some decisions that are not in their capacity to make.
    One poster (I cannot recall the name or I would credit him for this excellent analogy) presented this:

    I may want to be a major league baseball player. I may practice as hard as anyone. I may field a thousand ground balls per day. But, I don't have the freedom to become a major league baseball player.
    Why?
    Because it is not my in my capacity to make that choice. An executive for a major league team must choose me to play on their team. They make the choice. I do not. If they choose me, then I become a major league baseball player. If they do not...I do not become a major league baseball player.
    My "free will" is not free to make that choice. I am not given that capacity.

    The God of Creation does not give humans the capacity to choose to be his child. God makes the choice. God determines who he wills to adopt and make his child. We don't get that choice. Our will is not free to choose salvation. Moreso, we don't have the capacity to choose. Moreso, the Bible says that we will not willfully choose to submit ourselves under God's supremacy. We will not seek God.

    Instead, God must seek us. God must draw us. God must choose us.

    So, your attempt to use Philemon as your argument for free will is a vain attempt.
     
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  20. Particular

    Particular Well-Known Member

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    Clearly I don't fit your judgment of that delineation. I will not lose sleep over your judgment.
     
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