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Featured The Elect are Manifested in Repentance and Faith and Good works.

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by Alan Gross, Jan 2, 2023.

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  1. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

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  2. DaveXR650

    DaveXR650 Well-Known Member

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    John Owen even said that the only way to know if you are elect is if you have faith and repent of sin and try to live the life of a believer. It's a lot like a tree is know by it's fruit.
     
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  3. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    I think John told us those that come to the light so that their deeds may be manifested to be wrought in God.

    Good post

    peace to you
     
  4. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Repentance is the work of changing one's mind that results in a change of one's works. It is a work God can give so one can believe the truth of the gospel which is not a work.
     
  5. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

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    He did, in John 3:21; "But he that doeth truth cometh to the light,
    that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God."

    And that is, of course, after the "whosoever", of John 3:16!
     
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  6. Brightfame52

    Brightfame52 Well-Known Member

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    Believing and repenting are works, actions done, so works. The question is, are they works/actions of the natural man or the spiritual man ?
     
  7. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    When Paul spoke of works, he was specifically speaking of works of the OT Law. He was speaking of ceremonial law, giving of sacrifices in worship, circumcision etc.

    Paul specifically says we should repent and believe. In no way would Paul consider believing and or repenting as a work for salvation.

    Your reference to an action of the spiritual man or the natural man is an interesting distinction, based on the 1 Corinthian passage I suppose.

    The only thing I would add is that believing/repentance is not an action but rather a reaction to God Holy Spirit’s work of regeneration.

    peace to you
     
  8. Brightfame52

    Brightfame52 Well-Known Member

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    I never said Paul considered or conditioned repenting and believing as works done for Salvation, but people who do condition their acts of repentance and believing as conditions for Salvation, they advocate the accursed gospel of works.
     
  9. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    Those that advocate the necessity of belief and repentance prior to salvation reject the accusation they advocate a works based salvation. Since they clearly deny its works based, why make that accusation?

    IMO, this whole debate is needless.

    “Salvation”, imo, simply means a person has been brought into a right relationship with God and is, therefore no longer stands condemned.

    I believe scripture teaches that right relationship occurs when God Holy Spirit regenerates a person (no salvation yet), convicts them of sin (no salvation yet), convicts the person of the truth of Jesus Christ and Him crucified (no salvation yet), that person responds with repentance and faith in Jesus Christ and Him crucified (now that person is indwelt by God Holy Spirit and brought into a right relationship with God)

    That is a “logical” sequence that may actually occur instantaneously when God Holy Spirit regenerates a person.

    peace to you
     
  10. DaveXR650

    DaveXR650 Well-Known Member

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    This, I think, is classic reformed theology as outlined in the Westminster Confession of Faith and believed by most of the Puritan theologians. What makes it confusing is when you read them they say things that seem to contradict themselves. Bunyan for instance, warns us to be careful during the time you are under conviction lest you offend God and the conviction leaves you unable and unwilling to believe. So it's up to us? Then, in the same book he says that in a sense we indeed were saved from eternity past if we are of the elect. So what gives? I think that men used to be able to think of two things at once in a way that we modern men have trouble doing. We have all been trained to think in a logical either/or sense if you were educated in a Western type of school based on scientific principles. So we go all in with one thing or another. Anyway, that's just a theory.
     
  11. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    That is a very good analysis of the issue. Interesting quote from Bunyan. I’m certain he had scripture to support that idea.

    There is probably a distinction to be made between the work of God Holy Spirit in a general sense of brining about the will of God amongst mankind and His work in regeneration.

    Let me explain further. In Romans 1 we find that mankind rejected the revelation of God in creation. . Is God Holy Spirit active in a general sense that everyone knows God exist based on creation? This is contrasted with God Holy Spirit regenerating someone and convicting them of the truth?

    Good points all.

    peace to you
     
    #11 canadyjd, Jan 3, 2023
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2023
  12. Brightfame52

    Brightfame52 Well-Known Member

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    canadayjd

    ,

    Incorrect, regeneration is Salvation Titus 3:5

    5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

    This is a works base Salvation, contingent upon mans responding !
     
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  13. Brightfame52

    Brightfame52 Well-Known Member

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    canadydj

    Well it is work based salvation, because belief and repentance are the fruit and evidence of Salvation and not the cause and conditions of salvation.
     
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  14. DaveXR650

    DaveXR650 Well-Known Member

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    Notice how you took the statement "belief and repentance prior to salvation" and then argued that this is wrong because belief and repentance are "not the cause and conditions of salvation". You argued against a completely different statement that you made up. Not to mention the fact that the meaning of "conditions" in this sense has been explained carefully and "cause" was never used by anyone.

    Your way of explaining salvation is different than the Westminster Confession of Faith, the Puritans, Horatius Bonar, J.C. Ryle, Jonathan Edwards, Charles Spurgeon and Martyn Lloyd Jones. That should concern you.
     
  15. Brightfame52

    Brightfame52 Well-Known Member

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    Your way of explaining equals to works salvation, which is condemned by scripture.
     
  16. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    Titus 3:5 say we are saved “BY” the washing of regeneration and renewing of Holy Spirit. It does not say regeneration IS salvation.

    The focus is on the work of Holy Spirit that brings the person to that right relationship with God.

    I could give you many passages that say “repent and believe”. It is simply not a works based salvation to follow the biblical teaching that mankind responds to the work of God in bringing them to salvation.

    peace to you
     
  17. Brightfame52

    Brightfame52 Well-Known Member

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    I can see now you dont know what you talking about.
     
  18. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    There are only a few. What there are establishes repentance precedes faith. And God given repentance is a gift.
     
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  19. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    Ok, I agree with that

    peace to you
     
  20. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    You stated.
    So, you seem to acknowledge believing and repenting are necessary for salvation but make a distinction between whether they come from a natural man or a spiritual man.

    I stated repentance faith are a response to a work of God Holy Spirit and are not works.

    You quoted Titus 3:15 as teaching regeneration is salvation. I pointed out the passage doesn’t say IS but BY. You resounded…
    Let’s see, I pointed out Titus 3:15 says we are saved “BY” (agency) regeneration and renewal of God Holy Spirit and doesn’t say regeneration IS salvation.

    And your take away is that I don’t know what I’m talking about…..

    Thanks for the conversation

    peace to you
     
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