The Elect, Need a clear definition of....

[Wes Outwest]

How do you get merit when there is nothing earned? FAITH is not earned!

If you do not acknowledge that single critical element in God's plan of salvation, then you may be in jeopardy! It is God's will that those he saves have faith in HIM! No God does not give man the faith, only the reasons to have faith!

Hear come de judge!, Hear come de judge!, Hear come de judge!

 

[Scott J]

Originally posted by Wes, Outwest:
How do you get merit when there is nothing earned? FAITH is not earned!

Wes, if you make a decision based on your reading of the situation that results in a good outcome to you and I, faced with the same dilemna, make a decision with a bad outcome to me then the merit of your decision is obvious.

If you do not acknowledge that single critical element in God's plan of salvation, then you may be in jeopardy!

I never said faith was earned. I said it was a direct and inevitable manifestation of a regenerate nature.

It is you that claims that it comes from within one's self.

It is God's will that those he saves have faith in HIM! No God does not give man the faith, only the reasons to have faith!

If faith does not come from God and faith is what saves and faith is a result of human choice/belief then that choice/belief is worthy of merit.

 

[Scott J]

Originally posted by Wes, Outwest:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />If man's choice to believe (leading to saving faith) is the independent, first act that results in salvation and assuming that we agree that this is a good choice then how can God's granting of salvation to someone based on this choice and faith not be considered a recognition of merit?

God Grants Salvation to those who POSSESS faith! Not to those who know how to make good decisions! God set the condition that faith is what he looks for in man. He gives man EVERY reason to POSSESS FAITH! He GAVE man ever means of acting on those REASONS to arrive at FAITH.

NO, God does not GIVE FAITH to man, he requires that man have it as the result of using the means provided for receiving the word of God, then forming faith in that Word that by definition is faith in the Author of that Word. </font>[/QUOTE] Note the two words you used in this last paragraph: "using" and "forming". Those are actions Wes. If someone uses 'uses' anything to 'form' an 'attribute' that results in a good result then that is merit.

Saving faith either comes from a human choice or a divine one. You have intimated in the past that its origin was ultimately human due to a process of choosing to believe.

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />If one person chooses "good" and another chooses "bad" then the one who chose good deserves merit for being wiser, more intelligent, more discerning, etc, etc, right?

That would be true if God judges man according to man's merit!</font>[/QUOTE] Wes, If a person's independent choice (regardless of how you spin, rename, or layer it) is the critical factor in salvation that results from hearing the gospel and making a choice to believe it then it is a reward for merit.

The only way it is not merit is if you take human, wisdom, understanding, and independent free will choice completely out of it.

Why do some believe while others don't? If it is not because God chose them then the only alternative is that they did something to merit it.

Where in God's word does he reveal that He judges man by man's merit?

It doesn't... other than when He judges the unsaved by theirs.

And that is MY point. You have man making a decision ultimately of his own unregenerate will that results in salvation. You say that God recognizes the resultant faith and gives salvation. THAT IS A RECOGNITION OF MERIT.

Please list the scriptures that say that God is impressed with man sufficient to granting salvation based on man's merit! He does not, so it is not true.

You just argued against your own system.

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />If you say this is not true then please answer- why does one choose correctly? Who gets the credit for that choice?

The choice is not what is important, the possession of the criteria for Salvation is what Determines God's Action at the appointed hour. </font>[/QUOTE] Stop evading. The credit for the choice is absolutely important and it is the crux of our disagreement. You have insenuated that it is man's choice that causes salvation to happen to him... Is it? Or is it God's?

What criteria? Faith? Belief? Were they given by God's grace at regeneration or did they come from within the man?

"Possession"? How did man come to possess the criteria? Did God supply them or did man acquire them for himself?

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />It is your contention as best as I understand it that both the receipt and continuance of salvation is dependent on the free will choice of the man, right? If so then this is by definition salvation by merit.

That is your opinion! It is not mine! </font>[/QUOTE] If you agree that this is your contention then my last sentence isn't an opinion... it is a statement of fact.

Faith in God is a condition of the human spirit that begins with "Belief"! Belief is a condition that begins with "Believe"! Believe may be either an active or passive human decision.

"Passive human decision" is an oxymoron.

A decision requires that one choose from a number of alternatives or else to choose not to choose. However, a decision always involves an active willful choice.

One can believe without ever making a conscious decision. I would call that acceptance, which is an "either/or" or "both" situation.

The only way that can happen is if the belief is planted within the person by God, aka regeneration.

Nevertheless all of this is dependent upon knowledge of that which is related to God. None of it is based on that which has no valid explanation. God said, "For lack of knowledge my people perish!"

Yes. You say that a man hears that knowledge and makes decisions. I say that man hears that knowledge, God opens His eyes (regenerates him), and He believes.

 

[Wes Outwest]

Originally posted by Scott J:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Wes, Outwest:
How do you get merit when there is nothing earned? FAITH is not earned!

Wes, if you make a decision based on your reading of the situation that results in a good outcome to you and I, faced with the same dilemna, make a decision with a bad outcome to me then the merit of your decision is obvious.

If you do not acknowledge that single critical element in God's plan of salvation, then you may be in jeopardy!

I never said faith was earned. I said it was a direct and inevitable manifestation of a regenerate nature.

It is you that claims that it comes from within one's self.

It is God's will that those he saves have faith in HIM! No God does not give man the faith, only the reasons to have faith!

If faith does not come from God and faith is what saves and faith is a result of human choice/belief then that choice/belief is worthy of merit. </font>[/QUOTE]Hogwash! You ain't got a clue!

 

[Wes Outwest]

Note the two words you used in this last paragraph: "using" and "forming". Those are actions Wes. If someone uses 'uses' anything to 'form' an 'attribute' that results in a good result then that is merit.

"Using the means provided" could mean nothing more that hearing with the EARS that God installed on either side of your head for the purpose of taking in auditory sounds and recording them in the brain! You do understand that principle don't you? If that is work, then by golly, I want to be paid for what I HEAR!

If Forming Faith out of what you hear is a work then the only ones who do not work are those born deaf! What do you think you do when you believe the tenets of Calvinism? Are you working? Are you expending energy to cause your own ideas to conform to those of Calvinism? If you are, then you had better stop because you are gaining merit! . . . However, it may not be saving merit!

Saving faith either comes from a human choice or a divine one. You have intimated in the past that its origin was ultimately human due to a process of choosing to believe.

The scriptures are full of the expression "have faith" and many of those say "Have faith in God" and then the scriptures tell us that faith comes (to us, implied) by hearing, and that hearing comes from the word of God.

Now it could be that God speaks faith to those he elected before the foundation of the world. OR, it could mean that God gave us his word for us to search like those diligent Bereaen's to see if what we hear is true?

Since the first explanation has no foundation in scripture and the second is found in nearly all of the scripture, I disagree with your conclusion, and I am of the opinion that you do not know the truth!

 

[Wes Outwest]

Wes, If a person's independent choice (regardless of how you spin, rename, or layer it) is the critical factor in salvation that results from hearing the gospel and making a choice to believe it then it is a reward for merit.

The only way it is not merit is if you take human, wisdom, understanding, and independent free will choice completely out of it.

Why do some believe while others don't? If it is not because God chose them then the only alternative is that they did something to merit it.

Your convoluted idea of merit has no place in this discussion, because "if man breathes long enough to be regenerated" then man has done something meritorious and therefore does not deserve to be saved because he earned it! Yet, God created man to breath! So God created the impossible situation! If anybody could God could! But that is not the point. The point is you are excluding all the "normal" God designed features of man that caused God to give man the word of God.

You deny that man is a prized possession of God by saying that God only saves those he determined before the foundation of the world could be saved. So "prized" in truth, that God gave his only begotten son to be the sacrificial Lamb of God for the atonement of Sin so that we, ALL who believe, can be saved through faith!

Why don't you shelf your idea of merit and consider the reality of how God made man! Sin did not alter God's creation, Sin only separated God from his created man. And God has made and completed all that is necessary for man to regain a pure and holy relationship with God through man's faith in God.

Why do some eat grits but most don't? When those that don't get hungry enough, they too will eat grits! Whether or not one eats grits is not important, what is important is that we all eat the same way! Likewise, whether by selection, or by faith, it is important to note that scriptures clearly state that we are saved through faith....By GOD! There is no other way to be saved!

If one removes all the components of humanity out of salvation, NOTHING IS SAVED!

 

[Wes Outwest]

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Please list the scriptures that say that God is impressed with man sufficient to granting salvation based on man's merit! He does not, so it is not true.

You just argued against your own system.</font>[/QUOTE]It seems that Faith has merit because the scriptures clearly declare that man must have it to be saved. So man is saved on the merit of his FAITH. Now it must be determined where such meritorious faith comes from! I have already stated what scriptures tell us about faith. Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God. You say that man's faith is given to him by God, then you post something by the same author that gave us what I just said. Paul must have been one truly confused man to have said it two different ways. So what do the rest of the Apostles say? Do they say that faith is a gift of God to man? OR, do they say that faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God?

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />If you say this is not true then please answer- why does one choose correctly? Who gets the credit for that choice?

The choice is not what is important, the possession of the criteria for Salvation is what Determines God's Action at the appointed hour.</font>[/QUOTE]Stop evading. The credit for the choice is absolutely important and it is the crux of our disagreement. You have insenuated that it is man's choice that causes salvation to happen to him... Is it? Or is it God's?

What criteria? Faith? Belief? Were they given by God's grace at regeneration or did they come from within the man?

"Possession"? How did man come to possess the criteria? Did God supply them or did man acquire them for himself? </font>[/QUOTE]You demand that my position is that man chooses his own salvation when I have never said that man choose his own salvation. I have said repeatedly that man chooses to have faith in God, and that the scriptures tell us that we are saved through faith! Man's salvation is by no insinuation an act of God performed upon all men who have (possess) FAITH in God. God demands that man possess faith in order to be saved, so it is then in accordance with God's demand that man choose to have faith in Him. God said, "I put before you life and death, choose life! If God intended for one to be saved, then acted to regenerate the person, why does he give man the choice of life and death, where life is eternal life, and death is the lake of fire?

Faith is internal to man! If you can prove otherwise, then do so! I dare say you cannot!

Possession of the criteria for Salvation, is within man, and is uniquely individual in that I cannot possess your criteria and you cannot possess my criteria even though both of us must have the same criteria....FAITH in GOD, to be saved! God supplied All the reasons for us to have faith, then Makes us choose life or death, I choose life by placing MY FAITH in God!

 

[Wes Outwest]

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />It is your contention as best as I understand it that both the receipt and continuance of salvation is dependent on the free will choice of the man, right? If so then this is by definition salvation by merit.

That is your opinion! It is not mine!</font>[/QUOTE]If you agree that this is your contention then my last sentence isn't an opinion... it is a statement of fact.</font>[/QUOTE]Do you have a problem with the English/American language? Where in that have I Agreed with you?

 

[Wes Outwest]

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />One can believe without ever making a conscious decision. I would call that acceptance, which is an "either/or" or "both" situation.

The only way that can happen is if the belief is planted within the person by God, aka regeneration.</font>[/QUOTE]You obviously have not heard of "subliminal indoctrination". An event that happens in churches every Sunday to those who fall asleep when the preachin' starts. I've seen it happen with children of all ages, and even to me. Over the years I've asked many dozens of sleepers, after church, what they got out of the preachers talk this morning, and 75% of them can tell you what he preached about, and the conclusion drawn. Their eyes may have been closed, but their minds were still recording everything.

Did they believe what the preacher was saying? Well that depends on whether or not they trusted the preacher. Those where the preacher was well liked always believed. Those where the preacher either wasn't well known or had some 'blemish' on his cloak were not believed the majority of the time.

Yes, subliminal teaching is an accepted form of "conditioning" one's mind to acceptance of anything!

Yes. You say that a man hears that knowledge and makes decisions. I say that man hears that knowledge, God opens His eyes (regenerates him), and He believes.

AH! so you do believe that HEARING comes first...Followed by FAITH in GOD! And that faith is what gets the man saved! Halelujah! Agreement at last!

 

[Scott J]

Originally posted by Wes, Outwest:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />It is your contention as best as I understand it that both the receipt and continuance of salvation is dependent on the free will choice of the man, right? If so then this is by definition salvation by merit.

That is your opinion! It is not mine!</font>[/QUOTE]If you agree that this is your contention then my last sentence isn't an opinion... it is a statement of fact.</font>[/QUOTE]Do you have a problem with the English/American language? Where in that have I Agreed with you? </font>[/QUOTE]No. I don't.

Your post was unclear as to whether you agreed with my summarization of your position.

Really no need for you to be a smart aleck about it. Just clarify by saying "yes it was" or "no it wasn't".

 

[Scott J]

Originally posted by Wes, Outwest:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Yes. You say that a man hears that knowledge and makes decisions. I say that man hears that knowledge, God opens His eyes (regenerates him), and He believes.

AH! so you do believe that HEARING comes first...Followed by FAITH in GOD! And that faith is what gets the man saved! Halelujah! Agreement at last! </font>[/QUOTE]I have said several times that I am not entirely sure that chronological time is the best way to look at the process.

Also, I have never denied that hearing the gospel message was necessary. However, you cannot really hear the gospel in the spiritual sense until God regenerates. As we have both acknowledged, people can sit in the pews physically listening to the gospel for practically their whole lives without ever hearing and believing.

God opens the spiritual understanding by quickening the spirit of a man so that he will really hear the gospel and believe it.

If this still bothers you or if you think that I am being inconsistent then I will post this correction in order of significance... not necessarily time as we perceive it:

God regenerates a man thus opening his understanding, the man "hears" whether it is physical or out of his memory, believes, and is saved.... elapsed time 0.00000... seconds.

 

[Wes Outwest]

However, you cannot really hear the gospel in the spiritual sense until God regenerates. As we have both acknowledged, people can sit in the pews physically listening to the gospel for practically their whole lives without ever hearing and believing.

It is those who do hear AND believe that open their hearts to God so that HE can regenerate them. Transform them to the image of HIS Son Jesus, the Christ!

HEARING and BELIEVING, then REGENERATING and TRANSFORMING! The bible way!

 

[Scott J]

Originally posted by Wes, Outwest:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />One can believe without ever making a conscious decision. I would call that acceptance, which is an "either/or" or "both" situation.

The only way that can happen is if the belief is planted within the person by God, aka regeneration.</font>[/QUOTE]You obviously have not heard of "subliminal indoctrination".</font>[/QUOTE] Of course I have... do you have a biblical example of it ever being involved in the process of salvation?... Didn't thinks so.

An event that happens in churches every Sunday to those who fall asleep when the preachin' starts. I've seen it happen with children of all ages, and even to me. Over the years I've asked many dozens of sleepers, after church, what they got out of the preachers talk this morning, and 75% of them can tell you what he preached about, and the conclusion drawn. Their eyes may have been closed, but their minds were still recording everything.

Did they believe what the preacher was saying? Well that depends on whether or not they trusted the preacher. Those where the preacher was well liked always believed. Those where the preacher either wasn't well known or had some 'blemish' on his cloak were not believed the majority of the time.

Yes, subliminal teaching is an accepted form of "conditioning" one's mind to acceptance of anything!

So you are saying that everyone who gets saved does so by falling asleep in church so that neither his will nor God's is involved in his coming to believe?

This is quite probably the weakest response I have seen you post.

All you really have to do is answer the simple question directly. The fact that you keep evading tells me that you can't because you recognize the implications make your system of belief unbiblical.

 

[Wes Outwest]

Of course I have... do you have a biblical example of it ever being involved in the process of salvation?... Didn't thinks so.

Does everything have to be in the bible for it to be believable and provable to you? If so, you are going to miss out on a whole bunch of what God has in store for you. The Whole of Creation is GOD'S WORD! He made it by speaking it into existence, and he made it for us from which to learn about him. Even the Human body is God's WORD! Study it you will learn a whole lot about God through it!

So you are saying that everyone who gets saved does so by falling asleep in church so that neither his will nor God's is involved in his coming to believe?

Did I indeed use the word "everyone"?

Did I say anything about either divine or human will?

Then why do you falsely assert that I did? You are an accuser!

I believe my post dealt with subliminal "hearing of the Word", and that it is information that is recorded in the mind for the human spirit to use as it chooses.

This is quite probably the weakest response I have seen you post.

Everyone has a moment of weakness....Even you!

All you really have to do is answer the simple question directly. The fact that you keep evading tells me that you can't because you recognize the implications make your system of belief unbiblical.

EXCUSE ME? Evading? What do you perceive that I have evaded, or am evading?

 

[Scott J]

Originally posted by Wes, Outwest:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Of course I have... do you have a biblical example of it ever being involved in the process of salvation?... Didn't thinks so.

Does everything have to be in the bible for it to be believable and provable to you?</font>[/QUOTE] Everything concerning doctrine and in this case specifically the doctrine of how God saves men.

If so, you are going to miss out on a whole bunch of what God has in store for you. The Whole of Creation is GOD'S WORD!

No. It exists by God's Word and reveals Him in part.

But that isn't the point. The point is that your extra-biblical ramblings and arguments of convenience are not God's Word.

If you are going to say something in response to scripture concerning salvation, it should be supported by scripture. That seems to be a fairly simple principle that you are willing to overlook when convenient to your argument.

He made it by speaking it into existence, and he made it for us from which to learn about him.

And nowhere does one's interpretation of nature compare to the direct Sayings of God in authority.

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />So you are saying that everyone who gets saved does so by falling asleep in church so that neither his will nor God's is involved in his coming to believe?

Did I indeed use the word "everyone"? </font>[/QUOTE] No. You used it as a response to a universal question though. So don't try to dodge now.

Did I say anything about either divine or human will?

That is the absolute pivotal point of this debate. Salvation is intitiated by an act of someone's will... someone's will is preeminant in salvation. It is either God's with Him regenerating the elect thus leading to their saving faith or else it is man's whose belief is recognized by God and rewarded with regeneration.

Then why do you falsely assert that I did? You are an accuser!

You are one that cannot win the debate so you try to start fights.

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />All you really have to do is answer the simple question directly. The fact that you keep evading tells me that you can't because you recognize the implications make your system of belief unbiblical.

EXCUSE ME? Evading? What do you perceive that I have evaded, or am evading? </font>[/QUOTE]You are evading answering the simple, direct question I have continually asked. You have tried to evade the direct implications of what you dogmatically declare.

 

[Scott J]

Originally posted by Wes, Outwest:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Please list the scriptures that say that God is impressed with man sufficient to granting salvation based on man's merit! He does not, so it is not true.

You just argued against your own system.</font>[/QUOTE]It seems that Faith has merit because the scriptures clearly declare that man must have it to be saved. So man is saved on the merit of his FAITH. Now it must be determined where such meritorious faith comes from! I have already stated what scriptures tell us about faith. Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God. You say that man's faith is given to him by God, then you post something by the same author that gave us what I just said. Paul must have been one truly confused man to have said it two different ways.</font>[/QUOTE] Nope. Nor am I. Calvinism accounts for both aspects... God's choosing and man's faith. Arminianism does not. It emphasizes man's free will at the direct expense of God's sovereignty and against direct statements from scripture.

So what do the rest of the Apostles say? Do they say that faith is a gift of God to man? OR, do they say that faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God?

Peter declared election as did John.

You demand that my position is that man chooses his own salvation when I have never said that man choose his own salvation. I have said repeatedly that man chooses to have faith in God, and that the scriptures tell us that we are saved through faith!

That is all well and good but then you protest when I point out that if that choice comes from within the man then it is merit. He made a good choice that enabled God to save him... and if this is so then he was not saved by grace but by a recognition of his ability to choose well.

Faith is internal to man! If you can prove otherwise, then do so! I dare say you cannot!

John 1:13. The children of God are not born of the will of man but of God.

BTW, I didn't say that it wasn't internal. I said it was the result of God's grace in regenerating the man so that he could understand spiritual things.

 

[Wes Outwest]

Nope. Nor am I. Calvinism accounts for both aspects... God's choosing and man's faith. Arminianism does not. It emphasizes man's free will at the direct expense of God's sovereignty and against direct statements from scripture.

What you posted regarding faith is not a direct statement, it is an indirect opinion of a knowledgable, ELECTED, representative of God. Giving third party information to his reader. Whether or not one accepts that information is a matter of Faith, and the wheel goes around and around and around.

 

[Wes Outwest]

Peter declared election as did John.

We are talking faith, why do you interject election at this point?

 

[Wes Outwest]

That is all well and good but then you protest when I point out that if that choice comes from within the man then it is merit. He made a good choice that enabled God to save him... and if this is so then he was not saved by grace but by a recognition of his ability to choose well.

I'm telling you that there is no where else for faith to come from than inside the man.

You are saying that faith comes from outside the man.

I am saying that Faith which is the element in man that God looks for, is a meritorious possession. You are saying that man cannot have faith unless it is given to him from an 'outside source'.

It sounds like you are equating faith with Doubt. When in reality if one looks at doubt, one sees that it too comes from within the man. We are commanded to have faith and don't doubt! How is it we can do that if we are not in control of those two things?

You must consider the parable of the sower, where seed is scattered indiscriminately on various conditions of soil. That seed is not faith, it is elements that cause faith. The birds are not doubt, but they come and pluck away the seeds that produce faith leaving emptiness that causes doubt.

God, the sower, gives us all the seed we need to produce a good crop of faith, the birds make every attempt to pluck that faith producing seed away from us, and in a great many they are successful. The seed is not the tree! It only contains the stuff from which trees grow.

 

[Scott J]

Originally posted by Wes, Outwest:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />That is all well and good but then you protest when I point out that if that choice comes from within the man then it is merit. He made a good choice that enabled God to save him... and if this is so then he was not saved by grace but by a recognition of his ability to choose well.

I'm telling you that there is no where else for faith to come from than inside the man. </font>[/QUOTE] And I am telling you that for every effect there is a cause. I say the cause is God's regeneration of the man that makes saving faith an inevitable manifestation of the new nature. It comes from within the man but it is caused by God, not man's goodness.

I am saying that Faith which is the element in man that God looks for, is a meritorious possession.

Good. At least now you have acknowledged this much and we can move on to the implictions.

If it is merited then it is not by grace. Grace is by definition "unmerited favor". You are saying that it is merited favor that results in salvation.

You are saying that man cannot have faith unless it is given to him from an 'outside source'.

No. I am saying that it comes from an inside source (the spirit of man) that has been regenerated by God.

It sounds like you are equating faith with Doubt.

I have no idea how you came to this conclusion.

You must consider the parable of the sower, where seed is scattered indiscriminately on various conditions of soil. That seed is not faith, it is elements that cause faith. The birds are not doubt, but they come and pluck away the seeds that produce faith leaving emptiness that causes doubt.

God, the sower, gives us all the seed we need to produce a good crop of faith, the birds make every attempt to pluck that faith producing seed away from us, and in a great many they are successful. The seed is not the tree! It only contains the stuff from which trees grow.

Yes let's consider that parable. By what virtue did some soil produce while the other did not? By will?... or by nature?

Try as you might, there is no decision nor merit on the part of the soil. Only the nature to support the seed or not.