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The Elect, Need a clear definition of....
- Thread starter Wes Outwest
- Start date
Wes Outwest
New Member
Well you are coming closer to the truth by admitting that faith comes from within the man, and as scripture says Faith comes by hearing God's Word!
The EFFECT? FAITH in GOD!
The CAUSE? God's Word taken into the mind and heart of man!
So if by taking in God's word, man becomes a believer and even establishes Faith in God from it, then it is God's Word that is the Gift to man, and not FAITH given by God to man.
Truly man can have faith in whatever man deems believable, and man demonstrates that fact by having faith in all those things that man has faith in. But it is only FAITH in God through which man is Saved by God.
Wes Outwest
New Member
NO! you are reading into what I said, what YOU want me to say! Stop it!
I acknowledge that FAITH in man is Meritorious in that it is that faith whereby man is Saved by God. Faith is not a work, else it would not be "through faith that we are saved....not of works"! It would instead be "For by grace are ye saved through faith which has earned you salvation"!
You have not yet understood how Grace plays into this scenario. Unmerited favor does not imply the giving of gifts. It is instead a behavioral attribute of the one possessing it. In God's grace, he witholds his wrath. In God's grace he witholds his justice. In God's grace he demonstrates his love toward man. In God's grace we humans have not only the opportunity but the time to Get to know God and have FAITH in Him which he says is what he is looking for in us to save us.
Wes Outwest
New Member
No argument, if you are not saying that man must first be regenerated before he is able to take in the Word of God!
No argument if you are saying that God provides man with every reason to have faith, but does not give man the faith that man is required to have for Salvation.
No argument, if you are not saying that regeneration occurs first in order of all other things. Regeneration too comes from the Word of God. It is His words of Truth that cause regeneration in us, that change of persuasion that results in producing Faith in God, repentance, and worship. He expects it of us!
Wes Outwest
New Member
The soil must receive the seed! Hard soil does not receive seed at all, Rocky soil may receive the seed but at the first heat, the new plant withers and dies. Weedy soil receives the seed, but the weeds prevent it from getting sunlight and warmth that it needs to grow and it is choked to death. Good soil receives (Accepts) the seed, but beware the birds! For that seed that does take root in Good soil produces vast quantities of itself.
Wes Outwest
New Member
Then what you are saying is this: Because faith is a human possession, All who gain faith in God through hearing his word, become elect!
WOW! I have no problem with that! I think we are in agreement on that!
Wes Outwest
New Member
Scott J,
1. Salvation was INITIATED by GOD from BEFORE the foundation of the world. (John 1:1-34.)
2. All through scriptures, 340 numbered verses contain the word faith, there are but a few instances where faith is expressed as Given By God to man. But MANY use the phrase "YOUR FAITH"! Some the phrase "the FAITH that you have been taught", again many use the phrase "Their faith", and many use "By FAITH", "Placed their FAITH", etc. The point is that the vast majority of uses of "FAITH" indicate that faith is within the person, not given to the person. There are even places where it is the faith of the unbeliever that is spoken of, such as "they placed their faith in other gods". How is it that God would give faith to those who place it in other gods? If God did not give them their faith, where did they get it? Are there other gods with the power to give faith in them to man?
2a, The most impressive situation appears throughout the Gospels where Jesus, whom you insist is the one who Gives faith to those who have it, most often uses the phrases, "Have faith", "Your Faith", "if you had faith..."
And then in Luke 20:9 "When Jesus heard these words he was astonished at him and, turning round, said to the crowd following him, `I tell you, not even in Israel have I found faith as great as this.'" Why would Jesus be "looking for faith", if he is the one who gives it? Wouldn't he know to whom he had given faith?
Mark 11:22 "Jesus answered, 'Have faith in God'". If Jesus is the source of faith, why would he be telling others to "have faith in God"? Why didn't he just give it to them on the spot?
3. The will of God is that NONE SHOULD PERISH! Now it can be assumed that God's will is preeminent in Salvation because it is God that saves. Now whose will thwarts the will of God? The ones who do not come to faith in God, for they determine for themselves their eternal destiny according to the plan of God laid down before he created man.
Indeed, this point of Salvation is pivotal. We are saved through faith! who's faith? Man's faith in God!
Where does man get faith? Faith comes through hearing God's word and believing. The Word of God is a gift of God to man, so by some stretch, I suppose one could say that man's faith is a byproduct of a gift of God, therefore it too is a gift of God. However it is not a direct gift as in God giving FAITH to man. It is more in line with God gives man every reason to have FAITH, and expects us to have it when he comes looking!
Yes, I agree with you that this is pivotal to the debate.
1. Salvation was INITIATED by GOD from BEFORE the foundation of the world. (John 1:1-34.)
2. All through scriptures, 340 numbered verses contain the word faith, there are but a few instances where faith is expressed as Given By God to man. But MANY use the phrase "YOUR FAITH"! Some the phrase "the FAITH that you have been taught", again many use the phrase "Their faith", and many use "By FAITH", "Placed their FAITH", etc. The point is that the vast majority of uses of "FAITH" indicate that faith is within the person, not given to the person. There are even places where it is the faith of the unbeliever that is spoken of, such as "they placed their faith in other gods". How is it that God would give faith to those who place it in other gods? If God did not give them their faith, where did they get it? Are there other gods with the power to give faith in them to man?
2a, The most impressive situation appears throughout the Gospels where Jesus, whom you insist is the one who Gives faith to those who have it, most often uses the phrases, "Have faith", "Your Faith", "if you had faith..."
And then in Luke 20:9 "When Jesus heard these words he was astonished at him and, turning round, said to the crowd following him, `I tell you, not even in Israel have I found faith as great as this.'" Why would Jesus be "looking for faith", if he is the one who gives it? Wouldn't he know to whom he had given faith?
Mark 11:22 "Jesus answered, 'Have faith in God'". If Jesus is the source of faith, why would he be telling others to "have faith in God"? Why didn't he just give it to them on the spot?
3. The will of God is that NONE SHOULD PERISH! Now it can be assumed that God's will is preeminent in Salvation because it is God that saves. Now whose will thwarts the will of God? The ones who do not come to faith in God, for they determine for themselves their eternal destiny according to the plan of God laid down before he created man.
Indeed, this point of Salvation is pivotal. We are saved through faith! who's faith? Man's faith in God!
Where does man get faith? Faith comes through hearing God's word and believing. The Word of God is a gift of God to man, so by some stretch, I suppose one could say that man's faith is a byproduct of a gift of God, therefore it too is a gift of God. However it is not a direct gift as in God giving FAITH to man. It is more in line with God gives man every reason to have FAITH, and expects us to have it when he comes looking!
Wes Outwest
New Member
My faith does not hinge on your impression of my thinking, or your 12 year old's. But you do prove the addage bring up a child in the way he should go and he will not soon depart from it. I hope that your 12 year old, learns to "think outside the box" so that in life he/she can receive the truth!
Ferron Bimstone
New Member
Luke 17:5 And the apostles said to the Lord, "Increase our faith."
Romans 12:3 For I say, through the grace given to me, to everyone who is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think soberly, as God has dealt to each one a measure of faith.
1 Corinthians 12:8 for to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, to another the word of knowledge through the same Spirit, 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healings by the same Spirit,
Romans 12:3 For I say, through the grace given to me, to everyone who is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think soberly, as God has dealt to each one a measure of faith.
1 Corinthians 12:8 for to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, to another the word of knowledge through the same Spirit, 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healings by the same Spirit,
The soil must receive the seed!</font>[/QUOTE] You are implying free will for inanimate dirt. The soil doesn't "willfully" receive the seed. It receives the seed because of its nature.
The other soils' natures are not to support the seed.
Some people reject the gospel outright.
Some people give mental assent to the gospel but when they face tests of faith the lack of roots based in a genuine change of the spirit become evident.
Some people like the rich young ruler are attracted to the gospel but can never leave the god's they already have in their lives.
Some people have emotional experiences based on their guilt or sorrow or search for hope. The experience makes them feel better for awhile... but they never repent of those sins that caused their guilt. Those sins consume the seed before it takes root.
... and who had control of the preparation of the soil? Hint: It wasn't the soil.
Wes Outwest
New Member
Well why didn't the one who "conditioned" the good soil, do that to all the soil types, thus making them all able to support life of the spirit?
There are two answers here, one is what the calvinists adhere to and one that the rest of us hold to.
The calvinist insists on election of the created being by Divine selection long before the existence of the life of the created being! Creation having nothing at all to do with it.
The non calvinist insists on free will of the created, and living being "by design" of the Divine. God created us with everything necessary to respond to HIM, but leaves the actual response up to us in accordance with the way that HE made us!
There are two answers here, one is what the calvinists adhere to and one that the rest of us hold to.
The calvinist insists on election of the created being by Divine selection long before the existence of the life of the created being! Creation having nothing at all to do with it.
The non calvinist insists on free will of the created, and living being "by design" of the Divine. God created us with everything necessary to respond to HIM, but leaves the actual response up to us in accordance with the way that HE made us!
Yes, I agree with you that this is pivotal to the debate.
1. Salvation was INITIATED by GOD from BEFORE the foundation of the world. (John 1:1-34.)</font>[/QUOTE] Election was made before the foundation of the world. John 1 with passages such as Ephesians 1 and Romans 8.
And the use of the two different expressions could cause confusion if you see them as contradictory. I don't. It is from God since God grants the new nature. It is personal since it truly is a free will act performed by someone with a regenerate nature.
And that is partly why I have avoided that kind of argument for the most part.
It is only indirectly a gift. The true gift is when God quickens a dead spirit by nothing other than His marvelous grace.
He didn't.
From their unregenerate, totally depraved nature.
No.
There have been only a few occasions that I am aware of where I have contended that faith was given to people. Like I said, it is indirectly a gift... but more accurately, it is a direct result of a gift.
This either defeats both of our positions or it defeats neither. If this means it is the perfect will of God that none should perish then the universalists are right... let's go party.
However, if either of our camps (broadly speaking) are right then this text means something other than it being God's perfect will that "none should perish".
My answer is that God made a provision in Christ that is "sufficient" to save anyone... just like you I would suspect. But where you say that some men choose of their own free will to believe, I say that God recoginizing man's helplessness due to his spiritually dead state give life to those He elects.
Is it God's will that any sin or are blind or sick or even die? No. God gave (and gives) man a choice and man failed (fails). It was sin that caused these things.
God is not at fault for any of these things though He certainly had(s) the power to make them right.
It is not God's will that sends men to hell. It is man's. It is not man's will independent of God's grace in regeneration that sends men to heaven.
I agree. He changes one's nature and they freely believe.
No one thrwarts the will of God. God simply allows the non-elect to continue in their own will.
Again, if the ultimate source, the prime cause, of this faith is an unregenerate man's choice then man is not saved by an act of God's grace but rather by the merit of that choice.
So why do some who hear not believe? Are they not as "good" as those who believe?
That is the closest thing you have given to a direct answer to my question so I will be satisfied with it if you won't go any further.
God "expects us to have it". Therefore, salvation is not an act of grace but rather a recognition of our merit by God.
At least that seems to be the direct implication of your answer. If you say it is not then please tell me how it is avoidable.
Romans 9:20Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
That is a flawed representation of what calvinists believe. I don't know of a calvinist that says creation had "nothing at all to do with it." Can you point me to one?
Are you even reading what I respond to you with?
Read your last sentence. We respond according to how "HE" made us. The natural state of the lost is to be spiritually dead in sin. "HE" and only HE makes us alive so that our response can be to choose life rather than death.
Wes Outwest
New Member
Correct, then faith must not be a gift of God because those who have faith in other gods had to get it from somewhere, if it is not from within!
Salvation is not an "ACT of Grace". Grace is powerless to ACT! Salvation is what God does to man while God is being Gracious toward Man! IT IS ALWAYS GOD THAT SAVES, not grace, not even faith, those are only "whats", it is WHO saves and who gets saved that is important. God says that he saves man, God says that man must possess faith in order to be saved. If you call choosing to have faith Meritorious, then I am compelled to agree with you, because it is the merit of FAITH in man that God sees to determine the salvific value of man! Regardless, it is God who saves, and it is man who has faith that gets saved! AND our salvation is because God is behaving in accordance with HIS Grace toward us. It is imperative that we respond to HIM in FAITH!
God doesn't individually give us breath. He gave us a nature that has as a part breathing.
I have answered this question numerous times. The faith is a manifestation of a regenerate nature.
Oooooh Really? Now you are saying that there are two sources of faith? How then can faith be a gift of God if it comes from a variety of sources?</font>[/QUOTE] I have answered this question.
No.</font>[/QUOTE]Correct, then faith must not be a gift of God because those who have faith in other gods had to get it from somewhere, if it is not from within! </font>[/QUOTE] I have answered this question.
BTW, God being a source of something doesn't necessarily make Him the only source. For instance, someone can give to the poor because God moved them or someone can give to the poor because it makes them feel good (self-glorification). The charity might have been the exact same substance (say $100) but the cause was different.
Salvation is not an "ACT of Grace".</font>[/QUOTE] That is near heretical. Of course salvation is an act of grace on the part of God... else it is not an act of grace on the part of God directly implying it is something merited... which doesn't seem to be too far from what you are indirectly saying.
Grace is nothing if it is not characterized by action. Grace is giving someone something they don't deserve. It is unmerited favor... favor without action is nothing at all. It is meaningless to the extreme.
You are playing semantics. This is just another way of saying that salvation is an act of grace on the part of God. Whether one is arminian or calvinist, this is fundamental.
I didn't personify "grace" you went off on that rabbit chase all by yourself. Saying an "act of grace" is like saying "an act of kindness". You don't suppose that to mean that kindness acts of its own accord somehow do you?
None of this is in particular dispute. Why do you make statements like this as if they were?
What is in dispute is the prime cause of faith. How does man come to "possess faith"? You reply "by hearing the word" to which I reply "then why do some men believe while others don't?"
So, if you are right please tell me why some men believe and others don't if it is not their own merit?
Then you believe something that is contrary to the definition of the word "grace". It is not unmerited favor by which God saves man but rather "merited favor".
But that isn't consistent with what you just said. If man's faith warrants merit then it is inaccurate to say that it is God who saves. You must say that it is God and the man that save the man since God's power extends to the point where man's faith must take over.
That is NOT A POINT IN CONTENTION!!!
The point is where that faith ultimately came from.
My position: It comes from the regenerate nature that was a miraculous act of grace on the part of God.
Your position: It comes from within the man resulting in a cooperative saving of the man.
Is this an accurate summarization?
Wes Outwest
New Member
Are you saying that the man who complies with God's command to have faith determines for himself to have said faith that makes him meritorious, and that his decision to comply is what saves him? NO! It makes him compliant with the command of God! God saves those who comply with Him, not those who don't! So we strive, put forth effort, educate ourselves, and then we belief and keep on believing, and brother that is FAITH that is compliant with God's command to have faith!
There is never N
VERLAP between God's grace and man's faith, they are ALWAYs intertwined in that it is only WHILE God's grace is present that man can come to have FAITH! God does not give the man his faith! God's word taken into the man's memory does that by providing the man's spirit with knowledge that forms faith! IN A WORD? NO! Man's faith comes from the only place it can and that is from within the man!
Your position is flawed in that God commands us to have faith IN HIM, not to receive our faith FROM HIM! There is no such thing as a "miracle of faith" that only some can experience. There are such things as miraculous acts stemming from FAITH, but that does not include God dispensing faith! If He were in that business, ALL of the Children of Israel would have been GIVEN faith in their wanderings in the wilderness. But low and behold, when the scouts returned from their expedition into the promised land, there were only two out of the many who did not fear the land of the Giants. The rest lacked faith. I can hear it now, "Shame on you God! You should have given them faith the way you give it to us today"! How do you account for their lack of faith when it is God who gives man faith? Your position fails every test!
You are indeed the first to use the phrase "an act of grace". See "Scott J, 4,000 Posts Club Member # 945, posted 23-05-2005 10:10 in which you said
That is near heretical. Of course salvation is an act of grace on the part of God... else it is not an act of grace on the part of God directly implying it is something merited... which doesn't seem to be too far from what you are indirectly saying.</font>[/QUOTE]No, Saving man is an Act of God while he shows grace to his creation.
No! Faith is the reason for regeneration! There is no regeneration where there is no truth! Truth comes from the word of God, Truth spawns faith, and faith spawns regeneration! Just like God planned it!
For about the billionth time (an admitted exaggeration):
I am not saying that faith is a DIRECT gift from God. It is a result of the direct gift of new birth. Even you acknowledge that there are scriptures that say God gives faith. I acknowledge that there are scriptures that say men have faith.
These things are not reconcilable under your system. They are reconcilable and even necessary perspectives for my belief.
Not according to John 1 and 3. There we clearly see that a man is spiritually born of God (Holy Spirit) and not of his own will.
Are you saying that the human heart is an independent source of truth?
Yes. It does. Noteably, the scriptures declare that the natural man cannot discern these things of the Spirit... that kind of backs you into another corner. Without the indwelling Spirit, man cannot understand... but you say he must understand and believe before being regenerated.
Yep. Just like birth spawns conception.
Wes Outwest
New Member
Not according to John 1 and 3. There we clearly see that a man is spiritually born of God (Holy Spirit) and not of his own will.</font>[/QUOTE]I just finished reading John 1 through 5. . . again! I find nothing in them dealing with regeneration prior to faith. Perhaps you would care to present your facts that support your understanding.
Are you saying that the human heart is an independent source of truth?</font>[/QUOTE]How little you understand the human that God created. If you do not understand the natural how can you possibly understand the spiritual? The heart is the place where the knowledge of truth resides in man, however, the truth must be "heard" before it is deposited in the heart where the spirit of man is regenerated there by. [John 8:31,32]Jesus said: If you make my word your home you will indeed be my disciples; you will come to know the truth, and the truth will set you free. Regeneration comes from truth, truth comes from the word of God, and the truth is what sets us free from our sinful spirit...Thus REGENERATION!
Yes. It does. Noteably, the scriptures declare that the natural man cannot discern these things of the Spirit... that kind of backs you into another corner. Without the indwelling Spirit, man cannot understand... but you say he must understand and believe before being regenerated.</font>[/QUOTE]Have you no understanding? Man hears...absorbs truth, then man accepts...believes. It is that hearing and believing that is regeneration. And before you jump all over that, NO it is not of man's doings! That is the way God made it!