The Elect, Need a clear definition of....

[Wes Outwest]

Originally posted by OldRegular:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Wes, Outwest:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Perhaps I am misunderstanding you. You tell us that God can not give man faith because God has no faith to give. [Even though Scripture states otherwise.]

Paul is addressing the functionality of the church, do you have any other references that declare that God gives faith to man?
</font>[/QUOTE]Then are you conceding that God gives faith even though you state God has no faith to give? </font>[/QUOTE]NO! it's not me you are not understanding, it is Paul. Here' how

1 Corinthians 12

Spiritual gifts
1. About the gifts of the Spirit, brothers, I want you to be quite certain.
2. You remember that, when you were pagans, you were irresistibly drawn to inarticulate heathen gods.
3. Because of that, I want to make it quite clear to you that no one who says "A curse on Jesus" can be speaking in the Spirit of God, and nobody is able to say, "Jesus is Lord" except in the Holy Spirit.

The variety and the unity of gifts
4. There are many different gifts, but it is always the same Spirit;
5. there are many different ways of serving, but it is always the same Lord.
6. There are many different forms of activity, but in everybody it is the same God who is at work in them all.
7. The particular manifestation of the Spirit granted to each one is to be used for the general good.
8. To one is given from the Spirit the gift of utterance expressing wisdom; to another the gift of utterance expressing knowledge, in accordance with the same Spirit;
9. to another, faith, from the same Spirit; and to another, the gifts of healing, through this one Spirit;
10. to another, the working of miracles; to another, prophecy; to another, the power of distinguishing spirits; to one, the gift of different tongues and to another, the interpretation of tongues.
11. But at work in all these is one and the same Spirit, distributing them at will to each individual.

The analogy of the body
12. For as with the human body which is a unity although it has many parts, all the parts of the body, though many, still making up one single body, so it is with Christ.
13. We were baptised into one body in a single Spirit, Jews as well as Greeks, slaves as well as free men, and we were all given the same Spirit to drink.
14. And indeed the body consists not of one member but of many.
15. If the foot were to say, "I am not a hand and so I do not belong to the body," it does not belong to the body any the less for that.
16. Or if the ear were to say, "I am not an eye, and so I do not belong to the body," that would not stop its belonging to the body.
17. If the whole body were just an eye, how would there be any hearing? If the whole body were hearing, how would there be any smelling?
18. As it is, God has put all the separate parts into the body as he chose.
19. If they were all the same part, how could it be a body?
20. As it is, the parts are many but the body is one.
21. The eye cannot say to the hand, "I have no need of you," and nor can the head say to the feet, "I have no need of you."
22. What is more, it is precisely the parts of the body that seem to be the weakest which are the indispensable ones.
23. It is the parts of the body which we consider least dignified that we surround with the greatest dignity; and our less presentable parts are given greater presentability
24. which our presentable parts do not need. God has composed the body so that greater dignity is given to the parts which were without it,
25. and so that there may not be disagreements inside the body but each part may be equally concerned for all the others.
26. If one part is hurt, all the parts share its pain. And if one part is honoured, all the parts share its joy.

27. Now Christ's body is yourselves, each of you with a part to play in the whole.
28. And those whom God has appointed in the Church are, first apostles, secondly prophets, thirdly teachers; after them, miraculous powers, then gifts of healing, helpful acts, guidance, various kinds of tongues.
29. Are all of them apostles? Or all prophets? Or all teachers? Or all miracle-workers?
30. Do all have the gifts of healing? Do all of them speak in tongues and all interpret them?

YOU pick and choose phrases of thought and build a whole doctrine on it. You pick and choose key phrases, taking them out of CONTEXT to prove you weakminded theology. Verse 9 above is a clear example of what you do! In context it does not mean what you want it to mean, it is a teaching about the church. You want to use it to dispell a concept that you cannot comprehend. The blind leading the blind! but in your case, "the blind shooting blanks at those who see!" You never hit your target!

 

[OldRegular]

Originally posted by Wes, Outwest:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by OldRegular:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Wes, Outwest:

If you truly do not understand the natural, how will you ever understand the Spiritual?

Oh I understand the natural. I just read the Apostle Paul: But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.[1 Corinthians 2:14] I heartedly recommend that you study this Scripture, it completely refutes your contention that saving faith is the condition of the human spirit. </font>

1 Cor 2:14. The natural person has no room for the gifts of God's Spirit; to him they are folly; he cannot recognise them, because their value can be assessed only in the Spirit.

You obviously do not understand the natural or you would understand that the natural man gets faith, possesses faith, and can increase in Faith. NO I am not talking about Faith in God, I am talking about faith, human faith, the only kind of faith there is!

You want to say that faith only comes from God. Well where did the natural man get his faith in money, in his "natural abilities", in his spouse, in his job, in his...? Where does natural man get faith?

If you use your 'natural man' ability to think, I'm confident you will recognize that, "Yes, man does have faith outside of religion". If he didn't, absolutely no human accomplishments would be made, as every human accomplishment begins with an idea and the faith to make it a reality.

NOW, WHERE DOES NATURAL MAN GET FAITH, IF FAITH IS A GIFT OF GOD? </font>[/QUOTE]Wes, Outwest

I owe you an apology. All the time I thought we were talking about Faith in God, that results in God imputing righteousness to man, now I find out you were talking about something else entirely. I am so sorry.

However, may I say again that the Faith in God is not a natural attribute of mankind. It is unfortunate that all too often Faith in God is compared to the choices that people make in life. The argument is as follows:

“You are always exercising faith in your life, you couldn’t live a day without doing so. You exercise faith in your spouse, your money, your stocks and bonds, your posessions, etc., etc., etc..You exercise faith when you go out to start your car. You exercise faith when you board an airplane. Just as you believe that the car will start and the airplane will arrive safely, why don’t you believe in Jesus Christ as Savior?”

In fact starting a car or boarding an airplane have nothing to do with faith, rather they have to do with an understanding [to a greater or lesser degree] that the probability of the desired event will happen. Therefore, such a comparison is meaningless. A similar rationale could be made about faith in your spouse, your money, your stocks and bonds, your posessions, etc., etc., etc.

If Faith in God is not a natural attribute of mankind what is the origin of such faith? Faith in God, is the gift of God as demonstrated by the following Scripture:

Matthew 16:16,17, KJV
16. And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
17. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed [it] unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

Ephesians 2:8,9, KJV
8. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:
9. Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Though Faith in God, which leads to imputed righteousness, is not a natural attribute of man such faith is clearly demonstrated in the Apostle Paul’s analysis of the faith of Abraham:

Romans 4:18-22, KJV
18. Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be.
19. And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sara's womb:
20. He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;
21. And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.
22. And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.

 

[Wes Outwest]

You did not answer the question. WHERE DOES NATURAL MAN GET FAITH, IF FAITH IS A GIFT OF GOD?

Now you will notice that I did not ask what natural man may exercise his faith in, but instead where does he get it if faith is a gift of God? If faith is a gift of God, then ALL faith is a gift of God, and the natural man receives that gift too because the natural man ALSO has faith!

What is the process from whence man gains faith in anything?

If one has faith in money, does the money give the one his faith? Doesn't that make money a faith giver?

If one has faith in technology, does technology give the one faith? Doesn't that make technology a faithgiver?

If one has faith in a person does the person give the one his faith? That potentially makes every person a faithgiver.

If one has faith in God, does God give the person with that faith the faith? Why?

If man gets faith from knowledge of other things, principles etc, why should faith in God be different?

If man has the ability to have faith in anything why do you insist that man cannot obtain faith in God in the same manner? Faith (in God) cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God. God said, "For lack of knowledge my people perish!" Why is it that a lack of Knowledge causes God's people to perish? Because they possess no knowledge of God upon which to built faith in God! It always has been FAITH in God that was necessary for Salvation.

It has never been anything that God mysteriously "gives" that causes the same result. We, mankind, has been given the Gift that keeps on giving, The living Word of God, and the teachings of the Apostles from their writings from which we gain knowledge of God that forms the basis of our Faith in God.

You are quite simply wrong to insist that God gives faith to man. Why would he go to all the trouble to Give us his Living Word, and follow that up with the Teachings of the Apostles "who were taught by God", if He, God, is giving us the faith that we need for our salvation? That simply does not square up with Scripture, John 17:20. I pray not only for these but also for those who through their teaching will come to believe in me. In other words, "Will gain faith in me". It is, "Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the Word of God"!

No OldRegular, God does not give faith! He has already given ALL the reasons to have faith, but you must do the Faithing for God to do the saving!

 

[Bro. James]

Me, My and I:

is what separates man from God. Mankind suffers from chronic "egomania" and "megalomania".

Most of the ills of this world are caused by someone being "self-centered". Selfishness is sin.

Many people use the term: "My Faith". This is a misnomer. Anything "good" comes from above and is a gift--by the Grace of God. We have not "faith" unless God gives it.

This discussion is "bogged" in semantics. Ephesians 2:8 is quite plain. Why is there no consensus?

Selah,

Bro. James

 

[RON35951]

God Gives us faith

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,

Luke 17:5 And the apostles said to the Lord, "Increase our faith." 6 So the Lord said, "If you have faith as a mustard seed, you can say to this mulberry tree, 'Be pulled up by the roots and be planted in the sea,' and it would obey you.

Romans 12:3 For I say, through the grace given to me, to everyone who is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think soberly, as God has dealt to each one a measure of faith.

1 Corinthians 12:8 for to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, to another the word of knowledge through the same Spirit, 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healings by the same Spirit,


Through his Word

Romans 10:17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Galatians 3:2 This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Galatians 3:5 Therefore He who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you, does He do it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?


And Holy Spirit

Galatians 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed.

Galatians 3:25 But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.

 

[Bro. James]

There may be consensus--on this thread anyway:

There are many who believe that God supplies the faith to believe--along with every other aspect of redemption.

There is no room for boasting--only praise and glory to God.

Selah,

Bro. James

 

[Wes Outwest]

Bro. James,

Many people use the term: "My Faith". This is a misnomer. Anything "good" comes from above and is a gift--by the Grace of God. We have not "faith" unless God gives it.

This discussion is "bogged" in semantics. Ephesians 2:8 is quite plain. Why is there no consensus?

Sounds like more of that "total depravity "claptrap". If the faith that you have in God is not your faith, then who's faith is it? Does it belong to the object of the faith? You cannot have someone else's faith and be saved! You gotta have your own, otherwise you will not be saved!

Ephesians 2:8,9 seems to be the most widely misinterpreted scripture around. Those who misinterpret it ALWAYS think the gift is grace or faith, but the truth is, consistantly with scripture, the gift of God to man is "being saved"! For by grace are ye saved. Being saved is what that scripture is all about, and being saved is the gift of God! Not of works, not of any merit we may have, but a straight forward gift of God given to those who have faith in God. Any other interpretation is pure foolishness.

 

[Wes Outwest]

Ron35951,
I thought you knew better than that regarding Ephesians 2:8,9.
Neither Grace nor FAITH is "the Gift of God" in Ephesians 2:8,9.

The gift of God is "are ye saved"

 

[Wes Outwest]

Originally posted by Bro. James:
There may be consensus--on this thread anyway:

There are many who believe that God supplies the faith to believe--along with every other aspect of redemption.

There is no room for boasting--only praise and glory to God.

Selah,

Bro. James

If one has faith in God, regardless of the source, what is there to boast about?

 

[OldRegular]

Originally posted by Wes, Outwest:
If one has faith in God, does God give the person with that faith the faith? Why?

God gives people the faith by which they believe and are justified because they are among the elect. That is obvious if uou take off your blinders and suppress your ego and humbly read the Scripture that has been posted time and again on this Forum.

 

[OldRegular]

Originally posted by Wes, Outwest:
No OldRegular, God does not give faith! He has already given ALL the reasons to have faith, but you must do the Faithing for God to do the saving!

Wes, poor Wes

You are deliberately denying Scripture. RON35951 has posted a number of passages above that demonstrate this truth. Other posters including me have also posted such Scripture. Yet you continue to deny. Worse yet you are making yourself the author of your salvation when you blithely state: you must do the Faithing for God to do the saving! May God forgive you!

 

[Wes Outwest]

God gives people the faith by which they believe and are justified because they are among the elect.

Why would he do that?. After all he Gave us his Living Word, and since we have the writings of those who were taught by God?

Do you say that his Word is not sufficient for causing those who hear it to have faith in Him?

That is obvious if uou take off your blinders and suppress your ego and humbly read the Scripture that has been posted time and again on this Forum.

You should do the same!

Talk about ego! If God gives you something that he does not give me, YOU HAVE MUCH to boast about! for example: "See! God loves me more than he loves you! NANA! NANA! NANA!"

 

[Scott J]

Wes, I have been away for a few days.

Did you ever answer my question about the merits of a good choice to believe?

If you didn't then now would be an opportune time to do so.

If you did, would you mind linking me to it?

 

[Wes Outwest]

Originally posted by Scott J:
Wes, I have been away for a few days.

Did you ever answer my question about the merits of a good choice to believe?

If you didn't then now would be an opportune time to do so.

If you did, would you mind linking me to it?

You are interupting an ongoing discussion Scott, Post your question on a new topic let's see if we can arrive at agreement!

 

[OldRegular]

Originally posted by Wes, Outwest:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />God gives people the faith by which they believe and are justified because they are among the elect.

Why would he do that?. After all he Gave us his Living Word, and since we have the writings of those who were taught by God?

Do you say that his Word is not sufficient for causing those who hear it to have faith in Him?

That is obvious if uou take off your blinders and suppress your ego and humbly read the Scripture that has been posted time and again on this Forum.

You should do the same!

Talk about ego! If God gives you something that he does not give me, YOU HAVE MUCH to boast about! for example: "See! God loves me more than he loves you! NANA! NANA! NANA!" </font>[/QUOTE]Wes, Wes, Wes

You show how little you understand about the Grace of God. Those of us who believe in election can't run around saying to anyone: "I have more faith than you therefore I am saved and you are not." We have absolutely nothing to boast about. Rather the belief that God chose us unto Salvation in Jesus Christ stirs the deepest humility in our lives.

 

[RON35951]

Originally posted by Wes, Outwest:
Ron35951,
I thought you knew better than that regarding Ephesians 2:8,9.
Neither Grace nor FAITH is "the Gift of God" in Ephesians 2:8,9.

The gift of God is "are ye saved"

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,(NKJV)


Ephesians 2:8 (Amplified Bible)

8For it is by free grace (God's unmerited favor) that you are saved ([a]delivered from judgment and made partakers of Christ's salvation) through [your] faith. And this [salvation] is not of yourselves [of your own doing, it came not through your own striving], but it is the gift of God;

You are correct that the gift referred to is salvation. But if salvation is given by grace through faith, then faith must also be given as evidenced by the other scriptures I gave. (Luke 17:5, Romans 12:3, 1 Corinthians 12:8)

 

[Wes Outwest]

You show how little you understand about the Grace of God. Those of us who believe in election can't run around saying to anyone: "I have more faith than you therefore I am saved and you are not." We have absolutely nothing to boast about. Rather the belief that God chose us unto Salvation in Jesus Christ stirs the deepest humility in our lives.

You might think so, but that is because you did not know God was giving you something he doesn't give me. Now that you know that simply little fact, you will have a hard time not sinning by boasting about that wonderful gift God gave you, but didn't give me.

You see, if God gives you something that he does not give me, then you do indeed have something to boast about, and knowing what I know about natural man, You too would be one to do the boasting. Maybe not obnoxious boasting, but boasting just the same.

I have no difficulty with God's grace whatever, I only have difficulty with your understanding of it.

 

[Wes Outwest]

Originally posted by RON35951:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Wes, Outwest:
Ron35951,
I thought you knew better than that regarding Ephesians 2:8,9.
Neither Grace nor FAITH is "the Gift of God" in Ephesians 2:8,9.

The gift of God is "are ye saved"

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,(NKJV)


Ephesians 2:8 (Amplified Bible)

8For it is by free grace (God's unmerited favor) that you are saved ([a]delivered from judgment and made partakers of Christ's salvation) through [your] faith. And this [salvation] is not of yourselves [of your own doing, it came not through your own striving], but it is the gift of God;

You are correct that the gift referred to is salvation. But if salvation is given by grace through faith, then faith must also be given as evidenced by the other scriptures I gave. (Luke 17:5, Romans 12:3, 1 Corinthians 12:8) </font>[/QUOTE]Not an accurate assumption. Salvation is not Given by Grace, It is given by God in his grace, to those who possess Faith.

God does not give faith, either, faith is an exclusively human attribute, an attribute that is the result of knowledge gained from the Word and stored in the mind for the Spirit to use. It is that stored knowledge that the Holy Spirit illuminates in persuading the human spirit into faith in God!

 

[RON35951]

Wes,

Are you saying we recieve faith by chance?

Why do some people sit under the preaching of the Gospel and never recieve faith nor salvation?

Why do some people hear the the Gospel their entire lives but are never saved while others hear it once and are saved?

Why do some people never hear the Gospel? Is it just bad luck? Or does God determine where the Gospel is preached?

 

[Wes Outwest]

Originally posted by RON35951:
Wes,

Are you saying we recieve faith by chance? No! We do not "receive" faith by anything, we recieve knowledge that forms the basis for our internally developed faith! When the knowledge is present in us, the Holy Spirit illuminates that knowledge, and we develop faith in what the knowledge is about.

Why do some people sit under the preaching of the Gospel and never recieve faith nor salvation? Good question! Why are some farmers, some merchants, some financiers, some industrialists, some garbage haulers, etc?

Some were forced by some undisclosed compulsion to be where the Gospel is preached, but instead of hearing, they use that time to do their own planning and scheming, like, "what will we do this afternoon?" Or, "I have got to figure a way to increase my income in order to buy that fancy truck I want". "Why is jimmy having so much difficulty in school?", etc. They may be where the preachin' is good, but are simply not listening for it.

Why do some people hear the the Gospel their entire lives but are never saved while others hear it once and are saved? In order to be saved one must place their faith in the object of the their faith. Many hear the word and believe the word, but never put there faith into action. They simply do not have the faith that God wants them to have and therefore lose their salvation.

Why do some people never hear the Gospel? Is it just bad luck? Or does God determine where the Gospel is preached? This may be the most difficult to answer, not because there is no answer, but because God has not revealed to me. My childhood neighborhood, like most low income neighborhoods had those who were open to the Bible and those who were not. I don't know why that is, however I used to worry about my friends in those families that were not open to the word, until I went to my high school 40th class reunion. It was there that I discovered that those who, as kids, were in families without the bible, were now the strongest of Christians, devoting their existance to doing the work of God. Conversely, some who were in the Campus life bible clubs and Youth For Christ were totally disappointing, they had abandoned the faith they had as youth, and were now openly flaunting their sins in God's face. I may have a theory as to how that happens, but I certainly do not know for every instance how it happens.

To answer your question, I have never met a person in my 6+ decades of life that had never heard of Jesus, or the church, or religion. Have you? Everyone I've talked to knows instantly when I am speaking of the Christ and they are either open to it or the shut down the conversation.