Only God knows who is truly saved. We as humans can only guess by one's performance at the moment. We don't know what people will do in the future, thus we can't be 100% sure if one is truly saved. God knows the future and those saved are with their names in the Lamp's Book of Life.
However, willful betrayal is an available choice for those spiritually gifted. God has given them all the signs of His existence. Their betrayal is thus unforgivable. There is a difference between how Judas betrayed Jesus and how Peter denied Jesus. Judas' is a willful betrayal.
The Elect --- Question 1
Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Crabtownboy, Nov 17, 2009.
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Martin Said:
No place in the New Testament are we told that names will be or might be blotted out of the Lamb's Book of Life. Names were either in there from the foundation of the world, or they were not.
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In summary, when I compare your arguments to the Word of God I find none of your arguments convincing. I understand what you are saying, and I see your point(s), but I just don't think that Scripture agrees with your position. I'm not saying that I, or any mortal, has all the answers on the subject of election/foreknowledge, etc. However I don't see how what we do know agrees with your points. -
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So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it. Isa 55:11
Of the volumes of scripture that fill my mind, from the declaration of his holiness, righteousness, and sovereignty, this single scripture brings it all together for me. God's word always, and I mean always, accomplishes that which he pleases. He chooses and rejects. He kills and makes alive. He wounds and heals. All in all, he rules according to his will among the armies of heaven and the inhabitants of the earth. None can stay his hand or say unto him what doeth thou? Yet some would say this ends at the individual's salvation by which man is given the ability to thwart God's will, desire, and/or decree. If one spends eternity in splendor with fellowship with Holy God it is because God's word was sent forth for that purpose. If another spends eternity separated from God, it is for the same purpose, to accomplished the thing he sent it out to do. The word of God divides. It divides sheep from goats. The same sermon that was proposed to bring one to conviction and repentance will harden the heart of another. How many pastors/witnesses of the Gospel realize their job is to separate the two, to bring life and to bring death.
For those who claim that all names were written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world, how do you reconcile "Rev 17.........those "whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world". We are all at God's mercy and he will have compassion on whom he will have compassion, and whom he wills, he hardens. I daily thank God for his tender mercies shown towards me a sinner who deserves his wrath but was spared by his purpose to bring glory to his name by showing me compassion and mercy. In Christ Jesus by his unknowing and undeserved choice of me before the foundations of the world.
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Man, I will miss him greatly on here. -
http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=62563
His cancer returned this past summer..
http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=61324 -
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Martin said:
Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth; )
Election is not according to works, it is according to those that are called. This calling is speaking of faith.
Heb 11:8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.
Election is based on God's foreknowledge. It is something God knew beforehand that determines who he elects or chooses. You can argue about what this foreknown thing is, but it is shown that God knows who will believe and who will not.
John 6:64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
And only believers are known to God.
Gal 4:9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?
1 Cor 8:3 But if any man love God, the same is known of him.
If you are not a believer, then God never knows you.
Matt 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
So, only those who believe are known to God. And Jesus knew from the beginning who would believe. And of course only those who believe are the elect.
I believe the forknowledge of God that determines who is elected is those who will believe. He does not know the unbeliever.
And those who do not believe today can believe tomorrow.
Rom 11:23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
And graffed is the proper spelling, not grafted. -
Jedi Knight Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
Jesus said in John 10:5 speaking of His sheep "But they will NEVER follow a stranger; in FACT, they will run away from him because they do not recognize a stranger's voice." :jesus:
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And if God elects us or chooses us before the foundation of the world, then why do the scriptures tell a man to make his calling and election sure? If Calvinism is true, man has no say whatsoever in election.
2 Pet 1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
If Calvinsim is true, how can I possibly make my election sure? You and I are powerless to make our election sure if Calvinism is true.
For non-Cals this verse is not a problem. A non-Cal can examine himself and make sure he is trusting on Christ alone for salvation.
2 Tim 1:12 For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.
Paul said he knew whom he had believed on, and on whom he had committed himself. Calvinists would call Paul a heretic, because he said he committed himself to Christ. He had no problem saying he participated in his salvation.
1 John 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
How do I know I am saved? Because I know that I came to Christ in my heart and trusted him, I called upon him, I committed my soul to him, I believed on him. And I can remember the day I did so. And I am still depending and trusting on Christ to save me.
2 Cor 5:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?
A non-Cal can know if he has committed himself to Christ and is trusting him alone to save him, just as Paul knew.
I would like to see how Calvinists answer this verse. -
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I have always, at least in my recent memory, interpreted this passage to mean that our lifestyle is to reflect the gracious work of Salvation that the Holy Spirit has wrought in the elect. John Gill takes a similar approach in his interpretation of this passage. Of course I realize that is meaningless to you but perhaps not to others.
Consider the way Peter starts this letter:
2 Peter 1:1. Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:
Notice that Peter is writing to them that have OBTAINED like precious faith. Now what does obtained mean? Obtained means "to come into possession of". Now if you come into possession of something it is obviously something that you did not previously possess. I would suggest that this faith is the gift of GOD to those who have been regenerated as taught in Ephesians 2:1-8.
Now consider the remainder of this passage that you chose to ignore:
2 Peter 1:2-11
2. Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,
3. According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
4. Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
5. And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
6. And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
7. And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
8. For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9. But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
10. Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
11. For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.[/i]
Verse 2 is a continuation of the salutation. Notice particular verses 3 & 4. Here Peter is talking about the additional gifts of the Holy Spirit to those He has given the gift of Faith. In verses 5-7 Peter tells those things that the redeemed is to add to the gift of faith. The Apostle Paul expresses a similar thought in Romans 5:1-5. In verses 8 & 9 Peter contrasts the condition of those who follow his admonition and those who don't.
Having given these instructions Peter then makes the statement you so eloquently misinterpret: give diligence to make your calling and election sure. You would do well to recall the words of the Apostle Paul in Ephesians 2:10, following his description of regeneration, or the new birth, as an act of the Holy Spirit: For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. Since God elected some to Salvation in Jesus Christ, since Jesus Christ died for the elect, since the Holy Spirit applied the work of Jesus Christ to the elect; it follows that we are the workmanship of the Triune God and we are to do as Jesus Christ said in the Sermon on the Mount: Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.[Matthew 5:16] So you see Winman all Peter is telling us is to be obedient to the words of Jesus Christ.
It is my belief that Faith and doubt are opposite sides of the same coin. When Jesus Christ came down from the Mount of Transfiguration and healed the boy the following occurred: And straightway the father of the child cried out, and said with tears, Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief. [Mark 9:24]
In my years as a Child of God I have only met one person who said that he had never had any doubts about his salvation. It is the regeneration by the Holy Spirit and the gift of faith that overcomes doubt. However, I believe that all Christians are subject to commit sin. From my own experience I ask myself: Would a Child of GOD do such or think such? It is at times like these that I recall that Scripture: I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.
See, Winman, you have learned how one answers that verse who believes that if it were not for the Sovereign Grace of GOD in Salvation no one could be saved ! -
The Archangel Well-Known Member
For the umpteenth time--CALVINISTS BELIEVE IN ACTIVELY BELIEVING IN CHRIST!
Winman, what you are trying to do is besmirch Calvinists by posting untruth or misinformation. You have been lovingly corrected many times and you blatantly ignore the correction.
Furthermore, if you are suggesting that Calvinists don't agree with Paul on salvation--which you have suggested--then you are saying that Calvinists are not saved. YOU MUST STOP THIS.
At the very least--because we are, in fact, Christians just as you are--you owe us to faithfully represent our position, even if you disagree with it.
Blessings,
The Archangel
PS. Happy Thanksgiving -
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"just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, to the priase of the glory of His grace..." Eph 1:4-6
"But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for slavation through sanctification by the spirit and faith in the truth. It was for this He called you through our Gospel, that you may gain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ" 2Thess. 2:13-14
We could also look at verses like Romans 8:29-30, Revelation 13:8 and 17:8 (etc).
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1 Peter 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
Now, you can say whatever you want, the scriptures say that election is based (according) to the foreknowledge of God the Father. Anyone who is chosen, who is the elect, was chosen because of something God knew from the beginning, as he knows all things, and always has. And it is shown that those who are sanctified by the Holy Spirit, and have been sprinkled with the blood of Christ were chosen. You must believe in Christ to be the elect.
Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
This is a very similar verse that shows he hath chosen us "in him" before the foundation of the world.
Now, was I "in him" before the foundation of the world? No. I was not even born, I did not exist. But God in his foreknowledge can see down through all time. He saw that I would trust Christ. And so I was chosen, I was elect.
But my election was based on his foreknowledge of who would believe and who would not. I have already shown you numerous times that Jesus knew from the beginning who would believe and who would not. So you cannot deny that God has foreknowledge of who will believe, it is clearly shown in scripture.
John 6:64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
So, deny if you will, but Jesus knew from the beginning who would believe or not. This is the very definition of foreknowledge, to know something before it occurs, so the foreknowledge of God is absolutely shown here.
Now, if you want to argue that it was something other than faith or belief that God knew, you could do so. But you cannot deny that God foreknew who would believe.
But God does not know you until you believe on Christ. If I am an unbeliever today, God does not know me. But if I believe tomorrow, then he does.
Gal 4:9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?
This verse shows that a person is not known of God until he believes. It is very important to note that the verse starts with the words "But now". If you are not saved, you are not known to God in a personal sense.
Matt 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Just because someone thinks they are saved, does not mean they are. These folks thought they were, but Jesus said he never knew them. Note that they claimed works as the basis of their salvation. You can do all the good works you want, but if you do not personally trust Christ as your saviour you will be lost.
And this is shown elsewhere.
Matt 25:1 Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.
2 And five of them were wise, and five were foolish.
3 They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them:
4 But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.
5 While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.
6 And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.
7 Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.
8 And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.
9 But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.
10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.
11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.
13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.
In this parable, the oil represents the Holy Spirit. Five virgins were wise and took oil with their lamps, five were foolish and took no oil. It is important to note that neither God or anyone else gave them this oil, and that they were held completely responsible for having this oil themselves.
When the bridegroom came the five wise virgins had oil and so their lamps lit. But the foolish virgins had no oil and so their lamps went out. The wise virgins would not give their oil to the foolish virgins, so they had to rush off to buy oil. Again, note that they were responsible for obtaining this oil, it was not given to them by someone else.
But while they were away the bridegroom came and the five wise virgins went into the marriage and the doors were shut.
When the foolish virgins returned, they were not allowed in, and the Lord said, "I know you not".
So, you have to be saved, you have to have the Holy Spirit to be known to God. But when you do receive Christ and are known to God, he then also knows you in his foreknowledge. For Jesus knows who will believe and who will not beforehand.
Calvinists cannot seem to grasp foreknowledge. God does not determine who will be saved and who will not. But God knows who will be saved or not. God knows all things that will happen in the future right now.
God chooses or elects those whom he knows will believe on his Son Jesus. This is not hard to understand.
But a person who is an unbeliever today and is the non-elect today, can believe tomorrow and be the elect. This is exactly what the scriptures are explaining in Romans.
Rom 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
This verse shows election is based on faith. Those who do not believe are broken off, those who stand do so by faith.
Rom 11:23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
Those who turn from unbelief can be graffed into this natural olive tree. This is God's chosen, his elect.
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