"The election hath obtained it"; and "the rest are blinded", #Ro 11:7

[Silverhair]

Do you think Calvin wrote the Bible?

Remarkable.

Ephesians 2:8b; "...faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:"

"YOU WILL NOT COME TO ME THAT YOU MIGHT HAVE LIFE"

Luke 19:10; "For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost."

Ephesians 2:1; "And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;"

The silly comments you make on here are trying by times so that is why I do tend to ignore what you say. You hold to what he put forward so it would seem your the one that thinks he wrote the bible or at least the parts that you like. You must be taking lessons from Austin in how to post, that in itself says a lot. You hold to your calvinist philosophy and I will hold the truths of the bible.

 

[Alan Gross]

The silly comments you make on here are trying by times so that is why I do tend to ignore what you say. You hold to what he put forward so it would seem your the one that thinks he wrote the bible or at least the parts that you like. You must be taking lessons from Austin in how to post, that in itself says a lot. You hold to your calvinist philosophy and I will hold the truths of the bible.

"The election hath obtained it";

and

"the rest are blinded", #Ro 11:7

 

[AustinC]

Austin you seem to have this silly idea that one is saved before they even hear the gospel, that is calvinism. What does the bible say Ephesians 1:13. Hear, believe and be saved. That is not a contradiction that is biblical. Your idea that one is saved before they even hear the gospel is just a false gospel. You live with a contradiction which has been pointed out to a number of times but you continue to trust your calvinism rather than the bible.

It is interesting, after all this time, that you are clueless as to what I believe. Therefore I take it that you are being intentionally obtuse so as to not actually engage with the scripture I have provided.
Now, please quote what, exactly, I said that causes you to think that a person is saved before they hear God's voice.

Question: Is a person elected by God before the foundation of the world or is that person not elected until after that person chooses God? What is your theological position?

 

[Alan Gross]

The silly comments you make on here are trying by times so that is why I do tend to ignore what you say. You hold to what he put forward so it would seem your the one that thinks he wrote the bible or at least the parts that you like. You must be taking lessons from Austin in how to post, that in itself says a lot. You hold to your calvinist philosophy and I will hold the truths of the bible.

John 1:12-13; But as many as received him,
to them gave he power to become the sons of God,
even to them that believe on his name:

13 Which were born, not of blood,
nor of the will of the flesh,
nor of the will of man,
but of God.

John 15:3; Now ye are clean
through the word which I have spoken unto you.

I Peter 1:23; Being born again, not of corruptible seed,
but of incorruptible, by the word of God,
which liveth and abideth forever.

John 3:3; 5-8; Jesus answered and said unto him,
Verily, verily, I say unto thee,
Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee,
Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit,
he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh;
and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

8 The wind bloweth where it listeth,
and thou hearest the sound thereof,
but canst not tell whence it cometh,
and whither it goeth:

so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

Romans 9:16; So then it is not of him that willeth,
nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

I Cor. 4:15; For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ,
yet have ye not many fathers:
for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.

Eph. 2:10; 4:24; For we are his workmanship,
created in Christ Jesus unto good works,
which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

And that ye put on the new man,
which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

I Thess. 1:5; For our gospel came not unto you in word only,
but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost,
and in much assurance;

as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake.

Titus 3:5-6; Not by works of righteousness which we have done,
but according to his mercy he saved us,
by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;

James 1:18; Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth,
that we should be a kind of first fruits of his creatures.

I Peter 1:23; Being born again, not of corruptible seed,
but of incorruptible, by the word of God,
which liveth and abideth forever.

The foregoing scriptures prove without a shadow of a doubt
that The Work of REGENERATION
is wholly a Work of God the Holy Spirit,
through The WORD
which Enables the sinner
to Spiritually REPENT and Hear the Gospel.

 

[Brightfame52]

1 Timothy 2:6 gave Himself a ransom for all



1 Timothy 2:3-4 God...desires all men to be saved




Galatians 3:26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus




Romans 10:9-10 confess...believe...you will be saved
Romans 10:17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.




Romans 5:6, Christ died for the ungodly
Romans 5:8 while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us



1 Timothy 2:6 [Christ] ...gave Himself as a ransom for all
Romans 5:10 reconciled to God through the death of His Son,... we shall be saved by His life



John 1:12 ...who received him, ...believed in his name, ...become children of God,




John 3:18 ...who believe in him are not condemned; ...do not believe are condemned




1 Timothy 4:10 ...we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers.




Acts of the Apostles 16:30 ...what must I do to be saved?
Acts of the Apostles 16:31 ...Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved,

Alan from what I have seen in the bible it seems that it would not agree with the view being put forward in your post.

All those verses apply solely to Christs Church that He specifically died for Eph 5:25

 

[Silverhair]

Alan you

all kinds (such as Gentiles, also, and not just Jews).



all kinds (such as Gentiles, also, and not just Jews).

this ransom was given for "all"; not for every individual of mankind, for then all would be delivered, freed, and saved, whereas they are not; or else the ransom price is paid in vain, or God is unjust to receive a sufficient ransom price from Christ, and yet not free the captive, but punish the person for whom he has received satisfaction; neither of which can be said. But the meaning is, either that he gave himself a ransom for many, as in Matthew 20:28 for the Hebrew word to which this answers, signifies sometimes many, a multitude, and sometimes only a part of a multitude, as Kimchi observes (y):

or rather it intends that Christ gave himself
a ransom for all sorts of men,
for men of every rank and quality, of every state and condition,
of every age and sex, and for all sorts of sinners,
and for some out of every kindred, tongue, people, and nation,
for both Jews and Gentiles;

which latter may more especially be designed by all,
as they are sometimes by the world, and the whole world;

and so contains another argument why all sorts of men are to be prayed for,
since the same ransom price is given for them;

as that for the children of Israel was the same, for the rich as for the poor.

We (z) read, that when the people of Israel comforted the high priest
upon the death of his wife, or any relation, they used to say to him,
, "we are thy atonement", expiation, or ransom;

that is, as the commentators (a) explain it, by us thou shalt be atoned,
for we will be in thy room and stead,
with respect to all things that shall come upon thee;
but here the High priest and Mediator is the atonement
and ransom for the people:



The, "you", have been Given Repentance and Faith



Hearing the law to bring CONVICTION and The Gospel to Repent and Believe.



Hearing the law to bring CONVICTION and The Gospel to Repent and Believe.



Christ Died for Spiritually Dead, ungodly, sinners.



all kinds (such as Gentiles, also, and not just Jews).



Saved souls are reconciled.



Hearing the law to bring CONVICTION and The Gospel to Repent and Believe.



Hearing the law to bring CONVICTION and The Gospel to Repent and Believe.

"Believe" is not the description of a Method of 'Salvation'.

There is one way of Salvation, Hearing the law to bring CONVICTION
and The Gospel to Repent and Believe, both which are implied any time they are left out.

Ephesians 1:13 In whom ye also trusted,
after that ye heard the word of truth,
the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed,
ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,



all kinds (such as Gentiles, also, and not just Jews).



Hearing the law to bring CONVICTION and The Gospel to Repent and Believe.

The Jailer and his family knew plenty about Paul
and his preaching prior to this.

Afterward, "32 And they spake unto him the word of the Lord,
and to all that were in his house.

The law to bring CONVICTION and The Gospel to Repent and Believe.

There is one way of Salvation, Hearing the law to bring CONVICTION
and The Gospel to Repent and Believe.

Ephesians 1:13 In whom ye also trusted,
after that ye heard the word of truth,
the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed,
ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession,
unto the praise of his glory.

Just as it is implied what Lydia "heard".

Acts 16:14 And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple,
of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard us:
whose heart the Lord opened,
that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul.

It is GOD Who "Opens the heart" and He Will Not Give His Glory
to another person, or another "gospel".

Alan you are looking at the bible through your calvinist glasses. It is those that cause you to is understand scripture.

 

[Alan Gross]

Alan you


Alan you are looking at the bible through your calvinist glasses. It is those that cause you to is understand scripture.

It is the Spiritual Ability, to be Spiritually "Taught".

It begins with an understanding of Total Depravity.

 

[Silverhair]

It is the Spiritual Ability, to be Spiritually "Taught".

It begins with an understanding of Total Depravity.

Alan what is your understanding of "total depravity"?

 

[Alan Gross]

Alan what is your understanding of "total depravity"?

Usually, when a person is Saved,
or The Lord is "Working on them", in Convicting them of their sin,
they know:
All individuals are breakers of God's Law.

James 4:12; "There is one lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy:
who art thou that judgest another?"

2:10; "For whosoever shall keep the whole law,
and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all."

Individuals sin because they are sinners.

Psalms 58:3; "The wicked are estranged from the womb:
they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies."

51:4-5; "Against thee, thee only, have I sinned,
and done this evil in thy sight:
that thou mightest be justified when thou speakest,
and be clear when thou judgest."

5 "Behold, I was shapen in iniquity;
and in sin did my mother conceive me."

Adam sinned and all men sinned in Adam.

Romans 5:12; "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world,
and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men,
for that all have sinned:"

5:18-19; "Therefore as by the offence of one
judgment came upon all men to condemnation;

even so by the righteousness of one
the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners,
so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous."

 

[Silverhair]

Usually, when a person is Saved,
or The Lord is "Working on them", in Convicting them of their sin,
they know:
All individuals are breakers of God's Law.

James 4:12; "There is one lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy:
who art thou that judgest another?"

2:10; "For whosoever shall keep the whole law,
and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all."

Individuals sin because they are sinners.

Psalms 58:3; "The wicked are estranged from the womb:
they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies."

51:4-5; "Against thee, thee only, have I sinned,
and done this evil in thy sight:
that thou mightest be justified when thou speakest,
and be clear when thou judgest."

5 "Behold, I was shapen in iniquity;
and in sin did my mother conceive me."

Adam sinned and all men sinned in Adam.

Romans 5:12; "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world,
and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men,
for that all have sinned:"

5:18-19; "Therefore as by the offence of one
judgment came upon all men to condemnation;

even so by the righteousness of one
the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners,
so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous."

So if I am reading you right you have all men condemned because of Adams sin?

So if that is true then we also have the possibility of all men being saved by the risen Christ just as Romans 5:19 tells us.

But that still does not tell me what you think total depravity means to you.

 

[Alan Gross]

So if I am reading you right you have all men condemned because of Adams sin?

So if that is true then we also have the possibility of all men being saved by the risen Christ just as Romans 5:19 tells us.

But that still does not tell me what you think total depravity means to you.

"For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous."

"Many", not "all without exception".

The Total Depravity of Man by A. W. Pink

"David Clarkson, one of the Puritans, pointed out this fact in his sermon on Psalm 51:5:

"The end of the ministry of the Gospel is to bring sinners unto Christ.

Their way to this end lies through the sense of their misery without Christ.

The ingredients of this misery are our sinfulness, original and actual; the wrath of God, whereto sin has exposed us; and our impotency to free ourselves either from sin or wrath.

That we may therefore promote this great end, we shall endeavour, as the Lord will assist, to lead you in this way, by the sense of misery, to Him who alone can deliver from it.

Now the original of our misery being the corruption of our nature, or original sin, we thought fit to begin here, and therefore have pitched upon these words as very proper for our purpose:

"Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me."

 

[Silverhair]

"For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous."

"Many", not "all without exception".

The Total Depravity of Man by A. W. Pink

"David Clarkson, one of the Puritans, pointed out this fact in his sermon on Psalm 51:5:

"The end of the ministry of the Gospel is to bring sinners unto Christ.

Their way to this end lies through the sense of their misery without Christ.

The ingredients of this misery are our sinfulness, original and actual; the wrath of God, whereto sin has exposed us; and our impotency to free ourselves either from sin or wrath.

That we may therefore promote this great end, we shall endeavour, as the Lord will assist, to lead you in this way, by the sense of misery, to Him who alone can deliver from it.

Now the original of our misery being the corruption of our nature, or original sin, we thought fit to begin here, and therefore have pitched upon these words as very proper for our purpose:

"Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me."

A W Pink was a hyper cal so I really do not care what he said. I am still waiting for me to tell me what you think TD means in your own words.

Rom 5:17 For if by the one man's offense death reigned through the one, much more those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.)
Rom 5:18 Therefore, as through one man's offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man's righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life.
Rom 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man's obedience many will be made righteous.

You are reading into the text what is not there. The contrast in vs 18 " judgment came to all men" not some men " free gift came to all men" not some men. So your idea that of "not all without exception" disagrees with the text. This does not mean that all will be saved but all have the possibility of being saved.

 

[DaveXR650]

@Silverhair. At a practical real life level, if God were to let men hear the gospel, but leave them totally on their own, as to their response to it, the end result would be that not one would ever come to Christ. This is because our nature is such that we, all of us, have an overwhelming tendency to not be willing to renounce our wisdom or accept the righteousness of another. We love ourselves too much and even though we are rational creatures, we would never quite be able to come to Christ because our nature always would finally overrule the gospel message. That is total depravity in the area we are talking about here - the supposed "ability" of natural man to come to Christ.

 

[Silverhair]

@Silverhair. At a practical real life level, if God were to let men hear the gospel, but leave them totally on their own, as to their response to it, the end result would be that not one would ever come to Christ. This is because our nature is such that we, all of us, have an overwhelming tendency to not be willing to renounce our wisdom or accept the righteousness of another. We love ourselves too much and even though we are rational creatures, we would never quite be able to come to Christ because our nature always would finally overrule the gospel message. That is total depravity in the area we are talking about here - the supposed "ability" of natural man to come to Christ.

Dave then you are denying the text of the bible. What purpose do you think the conviction of the Holy Spirit is for? How about God saying that man can know Him through creation. And why preach the gospel if no one could hear it and believe it unto salvation. You are making the term Total Depravity into Total Inability. That is a calvinist construct and it is not biblical.
God holds man responsible for the choices they make but according to you they can not make a choice to be saved so you have made God to be disingenuous when He treats man as if he actually could make that choice all the while knowing that they could not.

 

[Alan Gross]

Dave then you are denying the text of the bible. What purpose do you think the conviction of the Holy Spirit is for? How about God saying that man can know Him through creation. And why preach the gospel if no one could hear it and believe it unto salvation. You are making the term Total Depravity into Total Inability. That is a calvinist construct and it is not biblical.
God holds man responsible for the choices they make but according to you they can not make a choice to be saved so you have made God to be disingenuous when He treats man as if he actually could make that choice all the while knowing that they could not.

What purpose do you think the conviction of the Holy Spirit is for?

The Conviction of The Holy Spirit is a part of The EFFECTUAL CALL.

Like how, "The Word of The Lord Came to Abraham".

Genesis 15:4; "And, behold, the word of the LORD came unto him, saying,
This shall not be thine heir;

but he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir.

How about God saying that man can know Him through creation.

Man can only know they are Condemned by God, from Nature.
Not "Saving Knowledge."

And why preach the gospel if no one could hear it and believe it unto salvation.

The ONLY WAY they can hear is,
"having been Predestinanted, them He CALLED", by The Effectual Calling.

God holds man responsible for the choices they make but according to you they can not make a choice to be saved

Left to themselves, man can ONLY SIN,
by their choice that they LOVE SIN, in Adam and Adam in them.

so you have made God to be disingenuous when He treats man as if he actually could make that choice all the while knowing that they could not.

Left to themselves, man can ONLY SIN,
by their choice that they LOVE SIN, in Adam and Adam in them.

God HAS NOT LOST HIS AUTHORITY
and DOES COMMAND OBEDIENCE

without Giving the Guity Sinner the ABILITY to KEEP HIS COMMANDS.

The Whole Decalog, all the time, from conception, for instance.

 

[Alan Gross]

A W Pink was a hyper cal so I really do not care what he said. I am still waiting for me to tell me what you think TD means in your own words.

Rom 5:17 For if by the one man's offense death reigned through the one, much more those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.)
Rom 5:18 Therefore, as through one man's offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man's righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life.
Rom 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man's obedience many will be made righteous.

You are reading into the text what is not there. The contrast in vs 18 " judgment came to all men" not some men " free gift came to all men" not some men. So your idea that of "not all without exception" disagrees with the text. This does not mean that all will be saved but all have the possibility of being saved.

None, NOT ONE had or ever would have a possibility to be Saved.

God Chose many, however.

The rest were left, to be more blinded than they were to start with.

"The election hath obtained it"; and "the rest are blinded", #Ro 11:7

 

[Martin Marprelate]

A W Pink was a hyper cal so I really do not care what he said.

A.W. Pink was not a hyper-Calvinist. He actually resigned from the pastorate of two churches when they objected to him preaching the Gospel freely (mentioned in his biography by Iain Murray).

 

[DaveXR650]

Dave then you are denying the text of the bible. What purpose do you think the conviction of the Holy Spirit is for? How about God saying that man can know Him through creation. And why preach the gospel if no one could hear it and believe it unto salvation. You are making the term Total Depravity into Total Inability. That is a calvinist construct and it is not biblical.
God holds man responsible for the choices they make but according to you they can not make a choice to be saved so you have made God to be disingenuous when He treats man as if he actually could make that choice all the while knowing that they could not.

I respect your position on this. Maybe you are right. I was just explaining how total depravity affects our response to the gospel. I do believe that we choose. I believe that our choice is real and based on our will and there are plenty of verses showing this. But there are plenty of verses showing that more is needed than just moral persuasion in this. I believe there is actual spiritual work done on us in order for us to ever truly believe. And at this point in my life I'm beginning to understand how much the Holy Spirit is keeping all of us once we are saved.

 

[DaveXR650]

A W Pink was a hyper cal so I really do not care what he said.

The thing about A.W. Pink is that he is too hard for most modern Calvinists and most winsome Baptists. If you read his writings on saving faith he so limits it and ties it to obedience that he loses most modern Calvinists who would rather discuss the metaphysical issues of sovereignty and future events. Pink had a heavy emphasis on saving faith as involving the heart and will and a huge emphasis on warning us not to be deceived by a false faith which will give us a false security until we wake up in Hell. He is worth reading.

 

[Silverhair]

The Conviction of The Holy Spirit is a part of The EFFECTUAL CALL.

Like how, "The Word of The Lord Came to Abraham".

Genesis 15:4; "And, behold, the word of the LORD came unto him, saying,
This shall not be thine heir;

but he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir.



Man can only know they are Condemned by God, from Nature.
Not "Saving Knowledge."



The ONLY WAY they can hear is,
"having been Predestinanted, them He CALLED", by The Effectual Calling.



Left to themselves, man can ONLY SIN,
by their choice that they LOVE SIN, in Adam and Adam in them.



Left to themselves, man can ONLY SIN,
by their choice that they LOVE SIN, in Adam and Adam in them.

God HAS NOT LOST HIS AUTHORITY
and DOES COMMAND OBEDIENCE

without Giving the Guity Sinner the ABILITY to KEEP HIS COMMANDS.

The Whole Decalog, all the time, from conception, for instance.

So God has predestined those to hell that He has not effectually called. Alan you can not hold to one view without accepting the other. But I am sure you will disagree.