Featured The Eternal Purpose of God in Christ

I am merely using a synonym for the same word you use all the time, one that is found in TULIP. Irresistible Grace. If grace is Irresistible it is "forced." If it can't be resisted then it is forced upon a person. Isn't that true? It is just a synonym to put things in its proper perspective. You admit that God has foreordained the elect before the foundation of the earth a specific number of people as the elect. You apparently are one of them. There is nothing you can do about it. You are one of the elect whether you want to be or not. You are "forced" into being a Christian. You cannot "resist" his grace. This is what Calvinism teaches. His grace is "Irresistible." It is a forced salvation. You have no choice simply because you are one of the elect.

That is why I keep asking the question. "How do you know you are one of the elect? How can you be sure?"
And if you have noticed, you aren't the only one I asked. I have asked as many Calvinists in these two threads as I have encountered. How do you know; how can you be sure? I have not got one satisfactory answer yet--not one that could differ from a J.W. or Mormon, or a false teacher, etc.

Yes they have. According to Stephen many have (Acts 7:51).
And yet it is a foundational block of Calvinism. I didn't stop resisting him.
The Holy Spirit's ministry is given clearly in John 16:8-11. And it doesn't speak of Irresistible Grace. It is not a matter resistance; it is a matter of conviction and acceptance.

If the word "force" goes then the whole concept of "Irresistible Grace" goes, as well as the doctrine of Reprobation. Deal?

Efficacious grace is not irresistible. Conviction of sin is resistible. The choice is man's whether or not to receive the gift of God.

Some do and some don't. That is the way it was in the Book of Acts; that is the way it was with me. I wasn't forced into salvation. I chose to believe in Christ.

Check John 1. Light dispels darkness.

Some hearts are attracted to the light. For what reason we cannot tell.
Perhaps God had been preparing them before time, as he did with Cornelius and Lydia. They were not regenerated or saved before Peter or Paul came. Regeneration and salvation happen at the same time.

The population of the world at that time was about 100 million. Now it is about seven billion. Quite a difference. It didn't reach one billion until the mid 1800's. In Abraham's time it was only about 8,000 or less. When you consider those numbers yes, the world meant the world. And for the gospel to reach the world was quite attainable in any of those generations.
In the OT people were responsible for the light they had. They were commanded bring a sacrifice "looking for the promise to come." They may not have understood all that the sacrifice meant. But their obedience in bringing that sacrifice was commanded by God to Adam and Eve and obviously carried out throughout generations to Noah, who also knew to bring a sacrifice to the Lord.
Noah disembarked in Gen.9. By chapter 11 they had already rebelled against God and his plans for them. But that is when God called Abraham. Yet the population of the world was not very big.

Scripture taken out of context becomes meaningless. Who was he talking to and why? Then you jump to an unidentifiable group in Revelation? And this is what you want to use to support what we believe to be a suspect doctrine?

1Cor.3 teaches us that some Christians are ungodly, but David is not speaking of those. He is speaking of the fool. Again, context is the most important thing here. Stay in the context of the Psalm.

No they are not. There are many scriptures to show that I was a sinner before God. Why would I use the entirety of this psalm?

Specifically, the ones who opposed David. Keep to the context.

Let's not get sidetracked here:
Verse one and four clearly identify the context. The context are those that are fools (ungodly) and "workers of iniquity."

Verse two and three were the verses in question:
Psa 14:2 The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.
Psa 14:3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

God is looking down from heaven at the fools or ungodly and the workers of iniquity that David was speaking of.
These are the ones that did not understand and seek after God.
These are the ones that had altogether become filthy.

Are there some that seek God?
Hudson Taylor did.
Cornelius did.
Lydia did.
And many others. The statement is a general statement about mankind, not an absolute. There are many general statements that describe mankind.

 

You were dead in transgressions and sins, as was I. Dead peoples have dead faith. Dead people are quickened to life and given faith and repentance. No force is necessary.

These thinly veiled attacks on our salvation is unwarranted, monsieur.

The rest of this is Pas la peine de mon temps, monsieur.

 

That is a remarkable exercise in special pleading. By excluding grace from faith, you make faith into a work, and therefore a suitable subject for boasting.

'But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, "Why have you made me like this?" Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honour and another for dishonour?' (Rom. 9:20-21; Isaiah 29:16).

Have you read the news recently? Are all men reconciled to God? It would be news to ISIL or Richard Dawkins. When the Bible speaks of 'the world' it rarely means 'all the people in the world. More often, it means all sorts and conditions of men- Jew and Gentile, rich and poor, slave and free.

No. Dead means dead. And spiritually dead means spiritually dead.

A literal translation of Gen. 2:17 is 'Dying, you shall die.' And so it was. Adam started dying and went on dying until he was dead. That is physical death. As spiritually dead people, the first thing Adam and Eve did was to run and hide from God (3:8). That is what spiritually dead people do unless God intervenes. God took the initiative in everything: He called them (v.9), made atonement for them (v.21) and gave them the promise of salvation (v.15). Every part of their salvation was of God.

Actually, I think you'll find that when man is dead he is a corpse. We are not told that we're ill in trespasses and sin, not even that we're really, really poorly. Dead is the word God uses and there's a reason for that.

They can't hear. "Why do you not understand my speech? Because you are not able to listen to My words' (John 8:43). Until God unstops their ears men cannot hear savingly.

It is not a parable; it is a prophetic vision.

What did Stephen say? 'You always resist the Holy Spirit!' And men always will unless He comes irresistibly. But when the Spirit comes in power, 'As many as had been appointed for eternal life believed' (Acts 13:48).

 

Dead simply means that one was separated from God, as Adam was when he was "dead."
Dead people do have faith. Everyone has faith. Jesus said that unless you be like little children you cannot enter into the kingdom of God. It is evident that even little children have faith.
Dead people are reconciled to God. Dead means separated; spiritually dead people are separated from God and need to be reconciled to God, as Adam needed to be. Thus God provided a sacrifice for him.
2Cor.5:18-21 explains how it is committed unto us to be ambassadors of Christ, and He has also committed unto us the ministry of reconciliation. As Ambassadors we are to take the gospel message to the world and others by faith in that gospel will be reconciled to Him.

They are not attacks at all. Believe me. I purposely ask that question to get at the heart of a Calvinistic problem. Where does assurance of salvation come from in Calvinism? I thought this answer would be self-evident. Apparently it is not.

 

There are many others that agree with me. Let me quote one for you.
Here is Walvoord:

He elaborates what I have already stated. Faith is never a work, and salvation, by faith is never by works.

Simply quoting a verse or two of Scripture doesn't answer my argument.

Did I say they were? Please quote me.

Your point here is that Satan, and not Christ is the god of this world and presently rules it. The Kingdom of Christ is yet to come, which is His Millennial Kingdom.

However, back to what I really said:
"His grace is sufficient"...for all mankind."
If you don't believe God is sufficient for all mankind then God is insufficient and not omnipotent. If that be the case then God is not god. He is limited like man.
Speaking about God to the pagan Athenians, Paul said:
Act 17:25 Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;
--IOW, God doesn't need anything. He is all-sufficient.

Some examples:
Physical death:
Jas 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
--When spirit is separated from the body that is death. Death is separation.

The Second Death and Eternal Death:
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
--The dead here are very much alive. This is the second resurrection. "The dead" are alive and well and standing before God receiving their ultimate sentence--to be cast into the Lake of Fire. There they will receive the most horrible sentence ever: "the second death," eternal death, eternal separation from God for all eternity. They will be very much alive, conscious, but separated from God. Death is separation.

Spiritual death:
Eph 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
--They were separated from God. Now they had been reconciled. They weren't a corpse; they were separated. And if they had continued in their separation, not being reconciled to God they would end up in the Lake of Fire to be eternally separated from God--the Second Death.

There you are simply stating the consequence of his "death." He did die; died spiritually--was separated from God. If he didn't there would not have been any need of a sacrifice. Your theology takes away the need of a sacrifice.
"The dying" is the Second Law of Thermodynamics, which was set in motion when Adam sinned. Everything began to decay. Death entered into the universe. But that is not what God told Adam. God told him he would die. Thus Adam did die.

It is a picture used for emphasis. He is still separated from God. He still needs to be reconciled to God. And God isn't sitting back doing all the work. He gave you the Great Commission, a responsibility to give his great message to others that they might have the opportunity of hearing that same message that you already heard.

They couldn't hear because they did not want to hear. They would rather carry on in their own unbelief. Those in Acts seven literally put their hands over their ears.

That was my point precisely.

Of course he said that concerning those who he was speaking to--the Sanhedrin, the ones who crucified Christ, and their ancestors, the ones that had killed the prophets. He was very specific about who he was referring to. He wasn't referring to everyone. Context is important.
To take one verse and make it as an absolute is something Calvinists here must deal with.

 

The word necros means.....a corpse......not separated ....but a corpse.
This has been explained a dozen times......CORPSE.

 

Yes, and that is not lost on anyone. It was used for emphasis.
In the Bible death means separation, as is shown by context.

 

Adam died spiritually the very second he ate, mon ami. Then God exiled him from the Garden.

Until you learn there are different faiths...

So all we havve to do is keep people like little children? Keep them dumb and they will go to heaven.

By quickening by the Spirit.

Nekros, monsieur, nekros.

Yes He did.

Us, yes.

You have no more assurance than I do, monsieur. What makes you think you chose wisely? Mormons, SDA's, Muslims, Jews, all believe they are worshipping God, too.

 

:applause::thumbs::applause::applause:...case closed. ...

 

There is much more to that story.
In Gen.3:6 they eat of the fruit, rebel against God, sin (and die).
In vs. 8--the hear the voice of God as he walks in the garden.
In vs. 9--God calls to Adam: "Where art thou?"
In vs. 10--Adam answers, I hid myself for I was naked and ashamed.
In vs. 11--God asks: Who said you were naked? Have you eaten of the tree...
And so the conversation between "dead" Adam and God continues though you say Adam is a corpse. This is the teaching of Calvinism. Death is a corpse. Adam is a talking corpse. The theology here is ridiculous.

However, when we come to verse 21, we are still in the Garden of Eden, but shortly after the curse has been pronounced. And the account says:

Genesis 3:21 Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them.
--Here is the sacrificed provided by God himself; Adam and Eve, through a blood sacrifice reconciled back to God. Those that were dead (separated) are now alive in Christ, or back in fellowship/alive in Christ.

Genesis 3:24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.
--Now at the end of the chapter, after redemption takes place, they are driven from the Garden.
You have oversimplified the story and thus gave the wrong conclusion.

Everyone has faith in spite of what faith they believe. Man, religious or not, has faith. Even children do. It is the object of one's faith that is important, religious or non-religious.

A child's faith is simple, unconfused. They immediately trust their parents 100% for their every need instead of a stranger. The object of their faith or confidence is their parents and it is an unquestioning faith.

By Jesus Christ. 2Cor.5:18-21.

Yes, Adam was nekros, but still managed to talk to God. It is something you have a hard time explaining. Your Greek fails you here. In the Bible "death" means "separation."

 

God spoke to Satan, too.

 

He also spoke to Balaam's ass.
But he wasn't trying to bring the ass or the serpent back into a right relationship with Him.
The reason for the back and forth conversation with Adam was to woo Adam back into a proper relationship with Him. Adam was His child, his special creation. God was not going to sacrifice for the ass or for the serpent. But He did sacrifice (Gen.3:21) for Adam and Eve.

 

It comes from being a Calvinist.

 

Actually it comes from scripture:


I John 5:13 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.

 

What case?
How do you know you are one of the elect Icon?
How can you be sure?

 

That post is so far back I don't know where to find it. Which post is it?
Sorry I missed it the first time. It is hard to answer everyone at the same time.

 

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