The EU

[Matt Black]

Apparently the old Hal Lindsey line from the 1960s that the EU is the antichrist is being bandied around on TBN. Now, aside from the fact that I wouldn't theologically trust most of the guys on TBN to sit the right way round on a toilet seat, I just wondered how widespread this view is amongst American Christians today. If it is, let me pose some questions:-

1. Why the EU? Why not pick on NATO, or the WTO? I know lets blame it on the Turks (to quote the song). No doubt there were Christians in the 19th century who thought the same of the developing USA

2. Why the fallacies about the EU that seem to be current in some Christian circles?:-

Fallacy 1) The EU is controlled by Rome, they're trying to let the catholic church take over the world again

Bzzzt. Sorry but no. OK, I'm not sorry just no. The European Union is a union of European states. Most of these have no estanblished (state) religion. Those that do tend to be Protestant, the churches that are established tend to be those formed during the reformation. Traditionally catholic countries do exist and are part of the Union. Until we get some agreement over the EU Constitution (specifically the voting rights), the EU is effectively controlled by those countries with a veto (eg France, UK, Germany and some others). Secondly, the countries with economic power tend to have more force because if they decide to take their toys (in the form of their economies) away then the whole thing would fall apart anyway.

Fallacy 2) The EU is coming to take over the world!!!

Currently the EU has difficulty taking over a drinking session in a brewery. We have major disagreements over most issues (CAP, Common Defense, Common currency) and currently no agreements look likely. Heck they can't even agree on where the parliament should sit and flit back and forth between Brussels and Strasborg every few months (not that the parliament has any real power anyway!). Yes given about 50 to 100 more years, there will be eventual Federal Union, I doubt anyone seriously believes this isn't an ultimate point but it would be a Union of European States, note that key word Europe. We can't even agree on constitution, and even if we do the majority of Brits, including me, will probably reject it so it will be dead in the water.
It is neither the EUs mission or goal to take over the world. It is

quote:
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The European Union (EU) is a family of democratic European countries, committed to working together for peace and prosperity. It is not a State intended to replace existing states, but it is more than any other international organisation.
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Lets be quite frank, I think the scare mongering over the EU is perverse and disturbing. Quite frankly every argument I've seen for the EU could be made for the US but of course this world superpower could never be a problem

Thoughts?

Yours in Christ

Matt

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

As an American living in a member state of the EU and even having a child who is an EU as well and US citizen I have to agree Matt.

We Americans have a tendency to say that if it is not American it is, if not evil, at least not as good.

I do not see any correlation of the EU and prophecy. The EU now has 25 member states, and will surly one day stand as a Federation with national status.

To perceive it as a world threat is unrealistic at best. The new EU Constitution may yet pass during Ireland's presidency, but so many compromises have been made that it is really not much more that a cooperative charter.

I fear that much of the criticism from my countrymen comes from the fact that Americans hate Europe in much the same way that Europeans hate America.

 

[Matt Black]

Agreed, Roger. For the record, I would rather that the UK pulled out of the EU as I don't see our national interests being served by membership. But if the EU is what the other 24 have to do to stop themselves fighting each other (which can only be a good thing), then let's let them get on with it...

Yours in Christ

Matt

 

[JeffM]

Matt,

Check out this discussion:

http://www.baptistboard.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi/topic/3/2233.html?

I was an avid reader of Hal Lindsey's books since 1977 when I discovered a copy of THE LATE GREAT PLANET EARTH on a stack of books in our living room.

I think Hal was on the right track given the current events he had to work with at the time, but things are different now.

I think the Anti-Christ will be Islamic and his government will be an Islamic one, ruled by the sword. They are the only people that behead infidels. The EU would never resort to beheading people. Most EU countries have outlawed capital punishment. Even if a demonic EU leader emerged from the EU, the people of the EU wouldn't stand for such a barbaric act to be re-enstated.

Follow the link above and read what has been said. I think Islam is going to bring the western world to it's knees with their brand of terror. It's something we just can't fight against effectively as civilized nations. In order to combat radical Islamofacist, we would need employ very uncivilized tactics which we are not willing to do.

The ten nation confederacy could very well be the union of ten Arab/Islamic countries surrounding Israel.

Another thing to consider is the Four Horsemen descibed in Revelation 6. They are White, Red, Black and Pale. The original Greek word for "pale" was Chloros or green.

The Islamic colors are White, Red, Black and Green. Just look at the Iraqi Flag.

The Anti-Christ is to rule from a restored Babylon (Iraq). I don't think the EU would want to operate from Iraq. I think they would stick to Rome, the UK, or even the UN Headquarters. An Islamic Anti-Christ would prefer and Arab/Islamic headquarters of the middle east and most Arabs still consider Baghdad as Babylon. In fact Saddam thought he was the re-encarnated King Nebuchadnezzar and he was trying to restore Baghdad to the old Babylonian Kingdom and be the supreme ruler of the world from the new Babylon.

Interesting stuff. I am convinced right now.

 

[Matt Black]

Jeff, I've just cross-posted there and invited you guys to drop in here! Great minds work alike!

Hmmm...no much of a debate so far here. Isn't there anyone who's prepared to vilify the EU as the Whore of Babylon anymore?

Yours in Christ

Matt

 

[Bartholomew]

The European Union (EU) is a family of democratic European countries, committed to working together for peace and prosperity. It is not a State intended to replace existing states, but it is more than any other international organisation.

I totally disagree with this statement. The EU is moving ever-onwards to take over more and more powers away from memeber states, and give them to the centre. Even to be a memeber, the UK had to pass a law that said EU law over-rides British law (this was upheld in the "metric martyrs" court action, where people were prosecuted for selling bananas with scales that measured only in pounds and ounces - something legal in British law but illegal under European law), so it is simply a case of Europe passing more and more laws to take more and more control of the member states. Under the proposed constitution it was agreed that if a country wanted to leave, it would have to give 2 years' notice, and during those 2 years would have no say in any of the european decisions, even ones that affect it! That means that once the treaty is signed, and a member state wanted to leave, it would be reuced to the legal status of a colony. No, the EU isn't a benign, natural federation; it's a monstrous empire, conquering a bit at a time.

However, that said, I agree with the rest of what you wrote. The EU (at the moment at least) can not possibly fit Biblical prophecy, and doesn't seem to have anything to do with Catholicism, either. In my view it will collapse - either because national governments will see that they cannot keep their citizens on board with the project, or they will carry on regardless and civil war may ensue. The only hope it has of extending its grubby little fingers over all areas, like it wants to, is to remove the armed forces from each nation's control, and use them to keep the population down.

P.S. I reccomend UK citizens vote for the UK Indepence Party in the coming European elections to show the government we don't want any more part in it.

http://www.ukip.org/

 

[USN2Pulpit]

Guys, I'm not hearing the fear-mongering you speak of. Here I am in the U.S. Midwest, and the European Union is the last thing on our minds. I know many of the pastors in the local area, and none of them have mentioned the EU. My own personal opinion is that economically, politically, and militarily, the U.S. is seen as "too powerful," so it (the EU) was formed so that there would be at least some competition.

 

[LadyEagle]

I'm inclined to think the EU will eventually collapse under the weight of global jihad.

 

[Matt Black]

Bartholomew, a vote for UKIP is a wasted vote. If you vote Conservative OTOH, they are opposed to the Constitution the CAP and the Common Fisheries Policy, which will mean that our EU membership will be fatally compromised,plus they stand a good chance of getting elected.

Yours in Christ

Matt

 

[rsr]

Matt, I think the perception of the EU as the spawn of Satan still hangs around because of Hal and his ilk (like Jack Chick), who have sold millions of books and tracts. But can we properly date him from the '70s so I don't seem so old?

NATO, obviously, doesn't qualify because, hey, the U.S. is part of it. The G-7 is a better fit, once it takes on some up and coming members like China.

Seriously, a lot of steam went out of the EU argument once it moved past 10 members. That just ruined a lot of eschatology on this side of the pond.

 

[Bro. James Reed]

I would be very wary of the EU if I was a citizen of any member country.

As happened here in the US, this country began as a Confederation of independent states. Then we moved on to the United States with majority power still residing with the several states. Then we moved on, in Lincoln's war, to federal control of the states and the states no longer having secession powers. Then we moved on to taking away any semblance of control that the states had left under the Constitution and giving it to the federal heads.

Now, we are a nationalized country where the separate states have little or no voice in what happens within their borders.

We were also being dragged into making the UN the supreme power over us and giving away our nation's sovereignty. Thankfully, if one can say President Bush has done anything good in his Presidency, he has brought us further out of that trap and once again given this country approval to make our own decisions.

I don't fear that the EU is the anti-christ, but I do fear that the several states will come to regret their decision to enter into this agreement when their individual powers are taken away and given to a centralized government. It is so blatantly obvious that this will happen, as it it did here, that it is indeed scary, not for me, but for all those living in the EU.

In a few years, there will no longer be German, French, Spanish, or British. You will all be Europeans and you will have no more control over what happens in your state than we do.

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

Ans many europeans are very proud to call themselves Europeans.

 

[Bartholomew]

Originally posted by Matt Black:
Bartholomew, a vote for UKIP is a wasted vote.

Matt, that is so not true. UKIP already has three MEPs - so the people who voted for them obviously can't have wasted their votes! Also, since the European elections are governed by proportional representation, small parties have a much better chance of being elected.

If you vote Conservative OTOH, they are opposed to the Constitution the CAP and the Common Fisheries Policy, which will mean that our EU membership will be fatally compromised,plus they stand a good chance of getting elected.

But Matt, so what? The MEPs have virtually zero power anyway (that lies in the unlected European Commission), so in a sense it doesn't matter who gets elected. The only thing these elections are any good for is showing all three main parties we're sick to the back teeth of their continued support of this European Empire.

And as for the Conservatives, it doesn't matter that they're opposed to many of these things. The fact is that they are completely wedded to remaining in the EU. And as a memeber state, we wouldn't have the power to get rid of a lot of those things anyway - we'd have to get the rest to agree to it. Tony Blair has said he'd reform the Common Agricultural Policy - but he goes along to Europe, and the French don't let him have his way. So what does he do? Do what's best for his country, tell the EU they have no right to dictate to us, and then leave? Or simply go along with it becuase he's married to the European monster? The Conservatives would do the same.

Finally, I'd point out that although the Conservatives are officially icy towards many of the E.U.'s ideas, many of their candidates are very pro-EU. And since you vote for a party, not a candidate, a vote for the Tories will thus be (in many cases) a vote for yet more pro-EU politicians! This is not about socialist/capitalist, Tory/Labour, or anything else like that. It's about our country's soverignty, and all those who want to keep our country should unite around the only moderate party in favour. Vote for the UKIP.

P.S. Christ for Kildare - many Europeans may be happy at having their countries conquered, but the majority of British people are not. Bro James, you're spot on.

 

[Jesus is Lord]

This may not be a very qualified and relevant statement but: I really wish that part of God´s plan for my life is living in the US. The EU (and the German government) is totally against God´s Word and will. Abortion, laws that regulate virtually everything etc. I love the USA. It´s such a wonderful country... a country were at least I know I´m free...

 

[Matt Black]

Bartholomew, I'd rather kick Blair's butt by voting Tory next month, although I do accept your argument that a UKIP vote in the Euro elections is not wasted; equally will you accept that a vote for UKIP at the general election will be wasted?

Bro James - I agree with you.

Interestingly, no-one has yet come up with the'Revived Rome/ Holy Roman Empire' thesis. Now why is Revived Rome an irrelevant argument? Well, most of the the time I hear this as the rebuilding of the Holy Roman Empire. There is a difference between the monarchical governance and approach of that entity and the current situation. Europe is far more fragmented than it ever has been before (with the possible exception of a few years after Napoleon . There is no one leader of Europe, attempts to create even a titular figurehead have failed so far. The 4th kingdom in Daniel's prophecy? Lets see, Europe was the first, Asia the second, Africa third. Right the New World is the fourth kingdom, you're all the antichrist. I shall now run around screaming and gerbiling to myself.


Yours in Christ

Matt

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

Originally posted by Jesus is Lord:
The EU (and the German government) is totally against God´s Word and will. Abortion, laws that regulate virtually everything etc. I love the USA.

Sounds like the US, if you add homosexual marriage, the largest porn industry in the world, etc.

 

[Bartholomew]

Originally posted by Matt Black:
Bartholomew, I'd rather kick Blair's butt by voting Tory next month, although I do accept your argument that a UKIP vote in the Euro elections is not wasted; equally will you accept that a vote for UKIP at the general election will be wasted?

Hi Matt,

I used to agree with you - I joined the Tories when William Hague became leader. I too thought they would go against Europe, but I really don't think they will. Any moves against, and I reckon they'll kick up the same kind of fuss they did against Margaret Thatcher. But anyway, I don't think a vote for the party you believe in is ever wasted. I have just one vote - I will use it to tell our political masters what I think. If everyone who was against the EU did the same, UKIP would have many seats in Westminster.

Interestingly, no-one has yet come up with the'Revived Rome/ Holy Roman Empire' thesis.

Good point, Matt. Although I do think there is a lot of merit in the view that the Roman Empire will be revived, I have always disagreed that the EU is it.

1. I mean, for a start, it's not even Roman! The power base is Germany - that's where the central bank is, that's the nation with the most MEPs, that's the nation with the most influence (along with France). And then when you consider that most of Germany was never under Roman rule anyway!

2. Some people say it's Roman because the pope is behind it. But the EU is secular!

3.Plus, the Vatican City (the tiny country that the pope kind of rules) isn't even part of the EU!

4. I think I'm right in saying that Ireland, Scotland, most of Germany, Czech Republic, Hungary, Poland, Estonia, Latvia, Denmark and Sweeden - all EU countries - weren't even part of the Roman Empire!

5. And most importantly, considering it's place in prophecy, the EU does NOT control Israel, unlike the real Roman Empire did. Until it does, I will not be taking these "EU = Roman Empire" claims seriously.

You know, if these people were alive in the middle of the 19th century, they may have pointed to the re-unification of Italy and said, "There's the Roman Empire re-born". But it wasn't. They may have looked at Napoleon's France unify much of Europe and say, "There's the Roman Empire re-born." But it wasn't. They may have poined to the Holy Roman Empire, Austria-Hungary, Charlamagne, the Ottaman Empire, or anything else. The problem is that unless it's ROMAN, and unless it's got a place there in the MIDDLE EAST, I don't see how it can fulfil the criteria.

 

[mioque]

 

[Matt Black]

Bartholomew, I think that apart from the merits of voting for UKIP we're approaching 'convergence' on this issue! Have you read Peter Hitchens' "The Abolition of Britain"?

Mioque, were you being sarcastic?

Yours in Christ

Matt

 

[Bartholomew]

Hi Matt,

Yeah, I think we've agreed pretty much all the way along. I'm afraid I haven't read that book, though my mum tells me it's a good one!

Also, despite my intense dislike of this European monster, I am conscious that it is not a good idea to get too wrapped up in the politics. Jesus was living in an occupied country, but spent his time teaching the gospel, not arguing against the benefits of Romanisation. I think we need to remember that this world isn't really our home. Still, though, whilst I have a vote I will certainly use it, and try to convince others to use it in the same way as me.

I still say vote UKIP. www.ukip.org