What is the Catholic view of the Eucharist? I am reading a book by a Protestant and it addressed the Eucharist, but I want to see how the Catholics here see it. What is it, what happens with it, what does it mean to you, etc.
Thanks!
Neal
The Eucharist
Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by neal4christ, Jan 25, 2003.
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As for what happens with it, a properly ordained priest speaks the words of Jesus Christ in which a re-presentation of the same sacrifice on Calvary occurs. Christ fulfills His promise to be with us until the very end of the age, as we participate in His offering of His own life to the Father.
The bread and wine, at the instant of consecration (the saying of Christ's words by the priest), become for us the Body and Blood of Christ. This is the God and Creator of the universe in His entirity. The bread is no longer bread, but the Body and Blood of Christ. The wine is no longer wine but the Body and Blood of Christ. I say that both "body and blood" are present in each because Christ Himself cannot be seperated. We can't say that "part of Jesus is over here while the other half of Him is over there." Christ is fully present in the "bread" and fully present in the "wine." To receive either one or the other is receive Jesus wholly.
Further, the Body and Blood are now present forever until consumed by man. Because of this, and since it is JESUS CHRIST, OUR LORD AND GOD, then He it is wholly proper to worship and adore Him. Further, any of the Body of Christ that is not consumed is to be reserved in the tabernacle to later be taken to the sick or shut-in. And because Jesus is wholly present there in the tabernacle, it is right and fitting to spend time with Him there in prayer. That's something that I really enjoy doing several times a week (in addition to Eucharistic Adoration, when the Body of Christ is exposed in a monstrance, for anyone to come in and pray and spend time with Jesus).
Please ask any further questions that you may have.
God bless,
Grant -
I might add that it was (to my memory) spending time in adoration of the Eucharist that I first felt my call to become Catholic. The overwhelming sense of peace and joy that radiated there was undeniable. Further, I look forward to EVERY Mass I attend (which is on average five times a week) because I will be receiving my Lord and Savior, Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity. It is the most personal and powerful gift that the Lord provides for us on this pilgrimage on earth.
God bless,
Grant -
Hi Grant,
Like Neal, I am trying to better understand the Catholic view of the Eucharist. One thing you said raised a question in my mind:
One other question that I have: I understand why the reverence for the bread and wine after the consecration. But why do people genuflect it *before* it is consecrated?
Thanks,
Brian -
Okay, Grant, I am not trying to start an argument, but I have a question about the Eucharist. The author I am reading says that the bread and wine are symbols of Christ, not the actual presence of Christ. Further, he says that the Eucharist contradicts John 19:30, "It is finished" and says Hebrews 9:24-28 shows that Christ's sacrifice was once and for all, and that the Eucharist contradicts this Scripture by saying that Christ is offered over and over. What do you do with this? I am just trying to understand Catholic thinking, not trying to fight. I just thought it would be best to get an answer from the horse's (not that you are a horse!) mouth, rather than from just one perspective.
Thanks!
Neal -
Other than that, we don't kneel until the prayer right before the words of consecration (right after the "Holy, Holy, Holy."
Hope that answers your questions!
God bless,
Grant -
Carson Weber <img src="http://www.boerne.com/temp/bb_pic2.jpg">
Hi Brian,
You asked, "Why then do the Eucharistic passages (Mat 26:26, Mark 14:22, Luke 22:19, 1 Cor 11:24) only say the bread is the body, and not both. Similarly, the verses about the cup only say "blood", not both."
The signs of the Eucharist point to different realities in the same Eucharist. The bread is a better sign of the body, and so we call it "the body". The wine is a better sign of the blood, and so we call it "the blood". Since the Eucharist is the presence of Christ's glorified body (which is not dead, and death is the separation of the body from the blood), both the wine and the bread become the whole Christ (Christus totus). Of course, this is a mystery accepted on faith, but we can come to understand much of the mystery by our reflecting upon it through reason.
One other question that I have: I understand why the reverence for the bread and wine after the consecration. But why do people genuflect it *before* it is consecrated?
People do not genuflect before the bread and wine before the consecration. What you are probably referring to is when people genuflect to the tabernacle where extra consecrated hosts are stored from the previous liturgy.
Hi Neal,
The author I am reading says that the bread and wine are symbols of Christ, not the actual presence of Christ.
If the author is attempting to represent the Catholic faith, he is incorrect.
Further, he says that the Eucharist contradicts John 19:30, "It is finished" and says Hebrews 9:24-28 shows that Christ's sacrifice was once and for all, and that the Eucharist contradicts this Scripture by saying that Christ is offered over and over. What do you do with this?
The Eucharist is a representation in time and space of the once-for-all sacrifice that Christ offered upon the Cross on Golgatha/Calvary.
Stephen K. Ray, a former Baptist, explains this very well here:
http://www.catholic-convert.com/writings/mass1.html
God bless,
Carson -
Further, the Church teaches QUITE clearly that it is not a re-sacrificing, but a re-presentation of the one and same sacrifice. For anyone to say that Catholics believe in a resacrifice or even a continual sacrifice, they're wasting their breath. It's never been taught by the Church.
Thanks for honestly asking and seeking answers, and even more than that, listening.
God bless,
Grant -
Thanks for the info, Carson.
Now this is for all Catholics. Does the sacrament itself save you or give you grace, or is it Christ doing it? This is another issue in the book that I have gotten to.
Thanks,
Neal -
Grant,
Thanks,
Neal
[ January 25, 2003, 10:48 PM: Message edited by: neal4christ ] -
LaRae -
"Celebrated worthily in faith, the sacraments confer the grace that they signify. They are effcacious because in them Christ himself is at work: it is he who baptizes, he who acts in the sacraments in order to communicate the grace that each sacrament signifies."
After quoting this, though, the author turns around and then says, "the thing is actually accomplished by the sacrament." In another spot he says, "It [referring to the sacrament] is the reality; it actually effects in the heart of baptized believers something of God's grace." (Emphasis in original)
Now correct me if I am wrong, but it seems that the author is saying that the sacrament itself is working, but the Catechism clearly states that it is Christ working through the sacrament.
I am just wondering, because I often hear the argument against Catholics that they do works and take sacrements because they think the works save them. But if I understand this correctly, Catholics are actually pointing to Christ in the sacraments and say that He is the one working. Would this be an accurate representation of what (true) Catholics believe?
Trying to sort this all out,
Neal :rolleyes:
[ January 25, 2003, 11:19 PM: Message edited by: neal4christ ] -
"Celebrated worthily in faith, the sacraments confer the grace that they signify. They are effcacious because in them Christ himself is at work: it is he who baptizes, he who acts in the sacraments in order to communicate the grace that each sacrament signifies."
After quoting this, though, the author turns around and then says, "the thing is actually accomplished by the sacrament." In another spot he says, "It [referring to the sacrament] is the reality; it actually effects in the heart of baptized believers something of God's grace." (Emphasis in original)
Now correct me if I am wrong, but it seems that the author is saying that the sacrament itself is working, but the Catechism clearly states that it is Christ working through the sacrament.
I am just wondering, because I often hear the argument against Catholics that they do works and take sacrements because they think the works save them. But if I understand this correctly, Catholics are actually pointing to Christ in the sacraments and say that He is the one working. Would this be an accurate representation of what (true) Catholics believe?
Trying to sort this all out,
Neal :rolleyes: [/QB][/QUOTE]
Christ is the working in the Sacraments. Without Christ they would be meaningless. Why bother?
Catholics do not believe works save you. Works (acts of charity) are an extension of a person who is "in Christ" .... it is something that a Christian should want to do, are called to do.
LaRae -
Neal,
I'm not afraid to say that a lot of Catholics are ignorant of the faith with which they are intrusted. I'm 19 years old, and my mother told me last month that I study the Catholic faith more than any Catholic she's ever met (and I wasn't even Catholic at that point). There's a real lack of zeal these days, and that's something I daily try to change. I try to get people excited about their faith in God. Sometimes I'm successful, sometimes I'm not. But there are still a lot of people who are clueless as to what "they believe."
Catholics do not believe that that works or sacraments saved them except in the fact that it is Christ working through them and Christ working through the Sacraments that salvation is obtained. Salvation is of Christ, not us. God is the cause of salvation, and God is the cause of the means of salvation. The sacraments are means in which special grace is imparted to us so that we have the strength (the strength that only God can give) to live IN HIM, for life in Christ gives us eternal life.
I'm sure I didn't word that to everyone's satisfaction, but again I stress: individual works do nothing; Christ does all.
God bless,
Grant -
P.S.
Neal, you keep finding that the Catechism says one thing, but this author says another...something that is clearly in contradiction with what the Church herself says she teaches. I question why you continue to trust this author as any sort of reliable source if he is clearly stating things that the Catholic Church doesn't teach AS Catholic teachings.
Why must he deceive you to prove his point?
God bless,
Grant -
Grant, nothing against you, but that truly is a shame you know more about your faith at age 19 than most do. I am afraid that is prevelant in most churches now, both Catholic and Protestant.
Neal -
Neal,
God bless you for your objective study. Those on this board who openly propogate these half-truths...I dunno...I guess the best word would be disheartenment (if that is a word!).'
This is why most people don't hate the Catholic Church...they hate what they think she is. And rightly so - if she was an idolotrous, blasphemous church who elevated herself about Christ and God Himself, would I, who love Christ so dearly, LOVINGLY be a part of it, and recommit myself to that faith on a daily basis? I highly doubt it. Even if she is wrong (which I do not believe is the case), when I put my faith in God to lead me closer to Him, He would not lead me into something that is by nature anti-Christian.
Therefore, I have always logically concluded that even if the Church was wrong, she was not anti-Christian; it makes no sense to make such a claim, especially when you objective read what she has to say.
Keep reading, brother, and keep praying. God will not lead you astray.
God bless,
Grant -
Neal,
Just thought I'd add onto your comment and LaRae's response on something. I'm really not sure how one could even suggest that the Sacraments are "works" in and of themselves. Grace is from God; we are in complete agreement on that I'm sure. Therefore, since I believe (and my Church teaches) that grace is FROM GOD and GOD ALONE, then if the Sacraments provide grace, then that grace from the Sacrament is provided by God. Therefore whatever grace a sacrament gives us is given to us by God. Further, since we both agree that grace is UNDESERVED, we could never WORK to obtain it. Therefore, the grace received from a Sacrament is unmerrited, which means we didn't work for it.
Also, please note that a sacrament cannot be considered a work unless accepting a gift is considered work. Christ baptises us and confers that grace. It is done by human means, but the supernatural gift is all of God. Same for the Eucharist; Christ does the work. Same for Confession; Christ does the work. Etc, etc, etc.
Just wanted to offer my two cents on that issue!
God bless,
Grant -
Grant, why do Catholics believe that the Eucharist is the actual body and blood of Christ? Is it not enough to be just symbolic? I must admit, at first it sounds a bit grusome.
Thanks,
Neal -
I realize that the above is a bit scatter-brained. Although it's a Lutheran book (and presents some Lutheran biases), "The Eucharist in the First Four Centuries" was a great read. It's VERY VERY scholarly in nature, and relies on a lot of the original Greek writings. Plus, Lutherans still believe in a real presence of the Eucharist, although not to the full extent that Catholics do (consubstantiation versus transubstantiation), so it still applies.
Non-historically speaking, we take it literal for a number of reasons. John 6. The fact that Jesus says "This IS my body. This IS my blood." Jesus makes no reference to symbolism. He doesn't say that it's like His body, or that it represents His body. He says IS. Further, the original Greek word for "remembrance" has sacrificial meaning in every other usage in the Bible.
Further, it makes sense to be literal. Christ gave Himself completely on the cross, but actually continues to give Himself to us in the Eucharist. What relationship is more personal than the Eucharist? I encourage you to just sit in the back row of a Mass, and listen INTENTLY to the words of the prayers and the responses. It is extremely intimate.
Hope that somewhat answers what you are looking for. If you need clarification (I'm sure you will), just gimme specifics and I'll do my best.
God bless,
Grant
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