I want to address just one aspect of the fallen nature of man in this thread and that is the fact that it is the same problem since the fall in Genesis three and has not changed from that time till now.
Some on this forum hold to the erroneous belief that man is not conceived in the womb in a state of spiritual separation from God. However, by passing that argument for the moment, what I want to deal with is what should be common ground. Since Genesis all who have come to age where they can discern right from wrong have individually rebelled against God and are sinners and thus at least from that point it must be admitted they are spiritually separated from God and thus spiritually dead.
1. Most of the New Testament passages dealing with the sinful condition of man are quotations from the Old Testament - hence the same problem before and after the cross.
2. Spiritual death is spirtual separation from God and thus spiritual union is spiritual LIFE both before and after the cross.
I am suggesting that man has had the very same problem before and after the cross and there has never been but one Biblical solution for that human condition. There never has been but one Savior, one way, one gospel, one blood of the everlasting covenant only made manifest in the first coming of Christ but promised and applied by faith before the cross since the garden of Eden.
Furthermore, where there is no regeneration/spiritual life there is no spiritual life and where there is no spiritual life there is no possibility of progressive sanctification as progressive sanctification cannot originate out of spiritual death.
Furthermore, where there is no regeneration there is no justification as God cannot possibly justified the spiritually dead in tresspasses and sins.
Furthermore, where there is no regeneration/spiritual life there can be no remission of sins as God cannot remit the sins of the spiritually dead in tresspasses and sins as it is those very sins that SEPARATE man from God which is SPIRITUAL DEATH.
The fallen nature of Man
Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by The Biblicist, Dec 6, 2012.
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The Biblicist Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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Is that correct?
If there had been no Christ once life had run it's course that would have been it. Or as stated in Gen. 2:17 Dying thou dost die.
The sin of Adam brought the before mentioned death to all men whether, all who have come to age where they can discern right from wrong, or not.
We are born in a state of which physical death would forever seperate us from God. But thanks to God, the Christ did come in the flesh.
However: Romans 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. (Whether living or dead at his appearing.)
1 Thess 4:16,17 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
Is my understanding incorrect? -
The Biblicist Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
spiritual death is not cessation of existence but separation from God. The second death is not cessation of existence but eternal separation from God in conscious existence. -
However, the moment they believed they were justified and forgiven their sins. Righteousness was imputed to Abraham when he believed God. In this sense Abraham was spiritually alive, that is, he was no longer condemned as a sinner.
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The Biblicist Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
Here is the crux of the issue. Spiritual death is like physical death in one aspect. It is a SEPARATION. In physical death the immaterial nature of man is SEPARATED from his material nature. Spiritual death is SEPARATION from God between the human spirit (Isa. 59:1-2; Eph. 2:1) and the Spirit of God and thus alienated from the life of God (Eph. 4:18). In direct contrast spiritual life is UNION between the human spirit and the Holy Spirit.
You have Abraham justified and thus forgiven and counted righteous before God but still spiritually separated from God in spirit and thus without spiritual life. There is no spiritual life possible for any human being who is not in spiritual union with God. However, Paul has Abraham "in Christ" (Gal. 3:17) and one must be "created in Christ" by new birth (Eph. 2:1,6,10). -
I agree with everything you wrote. And per above had not Jesus the one without sin, not been born and have died and have been resurrected from the dead, all before the cross and all after the cross would die in their sin and there would be no existence nor rememberence by them after death.
I understand Jesus the Christ was.
The question is in the context of had he not been born into the world.
Is there any existence for man outside of the resurrection of Jesus the Christ from death?
Did God create man, that if he sinned, to live forever in the outer darkness of hell fire suffering forever torment, unless depending upon your outlook, one is chosen by God or one by faith choses to except Jesus as his saviour, thus escaping the torment forever.
Or did he create man to die when he sinned? Yet before he created him he declared the Lamb of God would die allowing life after death to be given to the man he was going to create if the Lamb was obedient unto that death? -
I believe that the OT saints were held captive in Abraham's bosom for this very cause. They were not spiritually joined to Christ because the Spirit was not yet given. I personally believe Jesus descended into Abraham's bosom and gave the Spirit to those OT saints. At this point Jesus was able to ascend with these saints and they were brought into the presence of God. The scripture I believe supports this is;
Eph 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
The part I have highlighted in blue is where I believe Jesus gave the Holy Spirit to those OT saints that had been held captive in Abraham's bosom. He then ascended with these saints to heaven. I believe Abraham's bosom is now empty and all believers go directly to heaven when they die now.
Gal 3:17 does not say Abraham was in Christ, read again:
Gal 3:17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.
This verse says the covenant was confirmed before of God in Christ, but it does not say Abraham was in Christ.
But even if there were scripture that says Abraham was in Christ, I would say this was according to God's foreknowledge. I believe God can and could foresee all persons who would believe in Jesus, although no person is in Christ until time.
Rom 16:7 Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellowprisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me.
Paul said Adronicus and Junia were in Christ before him, so no one is in Christ until they believe in time. That said, I believe God can foresee those who will believe in time through his foreknowledge. -
Does death spoken of twice in Gen 2:17 not imply that, when death comes you will be dead? When you Adam sin, it will bring to you death and when that takes place it will be forever and God removed Adam from his presence, the tree of life so Adam could not eat of God see John 6:54 and live forever as a sinner.
I do not believe there is anything immortal about man unless God clothes him in immorality. When does that take place? Man is a mortal being in a souldish body of corruptible flesh and blood. He needs to be made, an immortal being with a spiritual body of incorruptible flesh and bone.
What do ya'll think it means verse 18 of 1 Thes 4? So shall we ever be with the Lord.
You will not be with the Lord until what takes place in verses 16,17 take place.
The wages of sin death (not physical death, not spiritual death) just death.
The gift of God is eternal life
Through Jesus Christ our Lord
The resurrection of Jesus Christ to life (soul and body) is the living hope that we to will have the same life Jesus was raised with. The gift of the Holy Spirit gives us cofidence and assurance of that. -
At the next appearing of Jesus the Christ will the man resurrected and or changed; conformed to the image of his Son, (from Romans 8:29) be equal in nature to Adam at the moment of his creation, less equal to the nature of Adam at that moment of his creation or greater in nature to Adam at the moment of his creation?
For sure we will be of greater nature of Adam after he sinned, but what about the above?
What did he fall from? -
Why does the Bible use the word death (which is the ending of life, life being the hinge that is needed) and not something else if man is created apart from God? Being created dead as an oxymoron at every level. The Bible is very clear that WE are dead in OUR sins and trespasses that WE used to walk in. Doesn't get much clearer than that.
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In Adam all die.
In Christ all will be made alive.
The judgement
Some will be judged for eternal life and some will be judged for the second death.
Some have been translated, that is put in a covenant relationship with God through Jesus his Son and have assurance they will not experience the second death. This is what Paul calls, in Christ. In reality they are already dead to the world and will die, yet when the resurrected Christ appears again, who is their life, they shall appear with him by resurrection/instant change. Judgement is already come to the house of God.
Enoch was translated, covenant relationship as in the bosom of the Abraham.
Neither will he see the second death. -
Besides this, this is the only time in all of scripture that the term "in Adam" is used, and it is speaking of physical death, not spiritual. The entire 15th chapter of 1 Corinthians is speaking of the resurrection of our physical bodies, not spiritual death.
Folks pull this one verse out of context and completely abuse it. It is not teaching Original Sin whatsoever. -
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The Biblicist Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
One must first be "in Adam" in order to be subject to death as death entered the world of mankind by ONE MAN'S SIN and death was the IMMEDIATE consequence "IN THE DAY" he ate and thus PHYSICAL death is a FUTURE consequence of IMMEDIATE spiritual death. In Genesis 2:16 "death" is comprehensive of both its IMMEDIATE consequence - spiritual separation and its ultimate future consequence - the Second Death. This comprehensive "death" is what was "passed" to all mankind (Rom. 5:12). So all mankind are "in Adam" and the proof is all die. Infants die and thus absolute proof they are "in Adam" and death has already "passed" from Adam to them. Their salvation is an altogether different subject but the fact they are subject to death and do die proves "death" has already been "passed" unto them through their connection "in Adam" by birth and they are already under "the reign of death."
Regeneration imparts spiritual life (Jn. 11:26) and regeneration is when one is "created in Christ Jesus" (Eph. 2:1, 6,10a). Just as spiritual death occurred immediately upon sin in the Garden so spiritual life occurs immediately at conversion to Christ and just as physical death is the culmination of spiritual death so also resurrection of the body unto life is the culimation of spiritual life. The lost are not raised unto the resurrection of LIFE but unto the resurrection of DEATH.
The above are the facts and no amount of posturing or twisting of scriptures can overthrow what I have stated IF honesty and integrity are the criteria for properly handling the scriptures. -
Bib,
I agree with all you wrote. I have a slightly different understanding of regeneration as you and understand you would disagree with me. And that is OK with me.
My understanding is with what the gift of the Holy Spirit does. I think you would say that is what regenerates one. Whereas I think the Holy Spirit set one apart (sancitfies) unto regeneration. That is by the Spirit one is baptized into the death of Jesus the Christ with the assurance of being resurrected from that death as he was, which I beleive to be the the regeneration when Jesus comes in the throne of his glory. -
The Biblicist Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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Eph 5:32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church. Are they joined together by one Spirit?
Is this wife, the church, pregnant? Is she not? But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all. Gal 4:26
Just when does she give birth to her spiritual children?
Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. John 3:7
When will, we that are in Christ be all that we shall be?
1 John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
What is so important about that moment in time?
Until that moment, can it be said that we, whether living or dead have inherited the kingdom of God?
Have we entered the kingdom of God prior to that moment? -
The Biblicist Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. John 3:7
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IMO, there are several Scriptures which teach that all humans are born with a sinful nature.
And it is well supported in Scripture (election verses, Ephesians 2:8-9, etc.) …
God’s grace is revealed: the faith to believe in Jesus and His gospel is a gift from God.
So, we have this sequence of events:
God's grace to us ---> God's gift of faith to us ---> our faith (belief) ---> our justification (salvation)
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