The hidden dangers of Calvinism

Certainly man has a free will. It ranks right there under the Permissive will of God, a subsection of God's Absolute sovereignty.

A human analogy might be the man working in an office. He has free will, but within the parameters of his Boss, else he might get sacked.

Cheers,

Jim

 

I have not and probably never will claim the title of "Calvinist".

However I will give my answer drawn from the Scripture:

Yes and no (hmm, I thought the presidential campaign was over).

Yes - an unregenerate man has the freedom of will to choose his actions within the parameters of his bondage to sin as a principle of life. He may even choose not to sin a certain sin because of a moral sense.
He may even choose to "serve" God (Example Saul who became Paul).
They (as we were) are flesh, the seed of Adam and alienated from God.

John Bunyan (Pilgrim's Progress) in his autobiographical writings said that before his awakening he was a religious adherent in the Church of England and felt that "no man serveth God better than I".

No, no unregenerate man has the will, ability or inclination to serve God in Spirit and in truth. In that respect he is a dead man and can only be awakened to serve God by the voice of God.

Ephesians 2
1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved) ​

Colossians 2
13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;​

HankD

 

Apparently you missed my point.

 

Labels don't matter....truth does. You just made a great post.

In Christ...James

 

Hi Jarthur001

Thanks for getting back to me, and answering my question.

But you also said.......

Are you saying, that on his own, unregenerated man, will never seek out God on his own?

I think that is what you are saying.

But what about........

Wasn’t this eunuch, seeking the LORD???

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You also asked me about my response on Romans 9:

(You must have missed it.)

It is on response number #172

 

I am not sure how many times I have to say this, but I do know what Calvin taught, and I call myself a Calvinist because I believe the Bible teaches certain things about soteriology.

You should probably meet more of both. Typically, Presbyterians who buy the whole system of pedobaptism and the like call themselves Reformed, but they will also use the name Calvinist.

Because in history, when these issues came to a head, Calvin was the person whose name got attached to it because of his influence in proclaiming these ideas. But the ideas had been around much longer than Calvin.

I usually don’t call myself a Calvinist unless someone who knows what it means brings it up.

Then they didn’t understand Calvinism.

This is a false dichotomy. Preaching Scripture requires systematic theology.

No, this is quite foolish. How many times do you have to be told that Calvinism is a view about what the Scriptures teach about soteriology?

I have had one, but who cares? I talk about it all the time. I just call it the gospel.

Because the label is for something the Bible teaches. Knowing what the Bible teaches and knowing what that is called is why I use the term.

Because Calvinism is a label for what the Bible teaches.

My accusation is that you don’t know what you are talking about. I have said this over and over again.

Why?

That’s silly.

Um, don’t read what people write about it. Read the passage itself. It is thanksgiving for election.

Of course it can. Slo quit mentioning Calvinism. We don’t need the term.

I am drawing the conclusion that you are not being straightforward here. You keep asking the same questions over and over again that have been answered multiple times. This has turned into nonsense. If you don’t like the answers, then fine. But at least accept that there are some who know more than you do about what they believe and why they believe it.

 

Yes, it seems so... The following is my own opinion with scriptural evidence.

Though unregenerate man is dead in sin, God has provided a limited spiritual understanding to them/us of Himself.

Romans 1
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.


John 1
6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.


John 16
7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;
10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;
11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.


Even unregenerate Cain, the first man born of woman was reproved by God and given advice to overcome...


Genesis 4:7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.


However in spite of these gifts...


John 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

There are some exceptions:

John 3:21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.


There is something about these within them (wrought by God) that causes a positive response to the light.


Give it whatever name you want (calling, predisposition, etc) .


Romans 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.


Chronologically "calling" precedes justification.


I said all that to say this...


The eunuch was responding to God's call due to a "predisposition" wrought by God.




HankD

 

Hi Jarthur001

First I apologize for misunderstanign your question.
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You asked........

I feel you are being kind of cryptic here, but.......

“Hate” Lit. (miseo) “To pursue with hatred!”
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But then you went a little deeper with.......

Now you seem to asking, “why God hated Esau”? (Not “what does hate mean”.)
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Therefore, I can only guess what you are getting at:

But here is one of my favorite verses.....

I love the point being made here, because I love God’s Grace.

The fact is, anyone who gets saved, must be elected, in order for there salvation to be by Grace.

If anyone, could ever save themselves, than Christ would not have had to die on the cross.
(Salvation is totally of God!)
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Then you continue with........

Now here is your main question.......
“Just who did God foreknow?”

I think this is where you and I will really part company.

God foreknew everyone.
(Now I think you Calvinists, limit God’s foreknowledge, to only the elect, but I don’t.)
Because of God’s Omniscience. (God can’t help, but to have known the future decisions, of everyone.)

Yes, God foreknew, Esau.

(And before you say it, yes I do know what “know” means.)
And I believe, that God knows absolutely everything about everyone that will ever be born..
Matthew 10:30
“But the very hairs of your head are all numbered.”
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Now for the first part of your response........

No, I don’t see Calvinism in this: What I see is someone using the light God has already given him, and seeking for more light.

If the eunuch would have not been interested in learning more about God, than God would not have sent Philip to him.

What we have here, is a “chicken and the egg” disagreement.
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I believe the Bible teaches, that everyone will have an opportunity to get saved.
And if you take that opportunity, than God will arrange for you to receive more information.

But if your reject that opportunity, than God will allow your to reject it, and allow you to fall into more Spiritual darkness.
(As we see in Romans 1:)
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I just realized, what Calvinism and Arminianism have in common:
(They both believe that some people, will not have an opportunity to get saved.)

(1)Calvinism: (Says the non-elect, will have no chance to get saved:)
(2)Arminianism: (Says that those who don’t here the Gospel, can’t get saved:)

While we Biblicist, believe that everyone will have an opportunity to get saved!
(1)(Even if your not elected, you must be given a fair chance to get saved:)
(2)(Even if a soul winner doesn’t come to where you are, you will find one!)

 

He is the one who starts and finishes the work in us He finished the work on us on the cross, He started by His word, but we cannot leave out all of God's word, that it is still the one who endures to the end that will be saved.

I must do us God wants to encourage you to believe and to keep your eyes on Jesus your salvation.

 

You are right about one thing for sure and that I was getting to Romans 9:11. Now the reason...

When Asked before about hate, you skipped to Romans 8 and say the reason why there was hate is that God KNEW...or FOREKNEW Esau would not believe. I will address Romans 8 later.

We need not go to Romans 8 when the very passage (Romans 9) tells us the meaning. Right? The reason is "the purpose of Gods election".

Romans nine also tells us why God elected....

Its not based on any GOOD. Now many times people see GOOD as only deeds or works. And this is in the meaning I would agree. Things like going to church...like walking little ladies across the street....helping the poor. But I want you to notice something and thank about it.

Our choices are based on our mind and what it thinks. This is why I answered the way I did about free-will. If you go to buy ice cream you will always buy what you view as the best choice for that moment. Even if they are out of your type of ice cream. You then move to another type and will pick what you feel is best for you at that moment. Our wills are bound by our desires and what we see as good.

This is true with evil. That is what sin is. Sin is not a list of does and do-nots. Its a path away from Gods will. The path starts in the mind. This is the point that Jesus was making when he said if you lust after a lady, you have sinned. If you hate someone so much that you wish to murder them, you have sinned. The sin happens before the action is done and is in the mind of the person.

Romans 8...

This is also true with good. If we choose good, it is our mind that has made that choice. I say all this to show that works and deeds are only an expression of who we are. So we need to get beyond just works and deeds.

To do good is also think good. To do evil is also to think evil. When scripture says...neither having done any good or evil...this is talking about not only deeds and actions, but what they had in their minds.

Therefore election we are told on verse 11 is not based on what we do....or what we think. Its not based on anything in us....good or bad. When we believe something we have to THINK it is good to believe it, therefore we believe it. It was based on our choice of what we saw as good at that moment in time. If we reject it, rejectiong is based on another subject we see as the better choice.

In other words...IT IS GODS CHOICE!!!...and based on him alone.

You got that right.

Romans 8...the very passage you quoted limits it...not this Calvinist.

If you feel God foreknows all people...then you also must think..

all people are predestinated

God does know all things, but he always has. He did not looked ahead and LEARN anything from man.

and so Esau was predestinated?

What does "know" mean?

Believe what you want and reject what you want. The TEXT says...he would not understand unless someone TOLD him. That was Gods plan. Don't slide over the text into what you want it to say.

If this is the case, then there still is no DANGER in Calvinism. And this is why you have been unable to post the dangers you once felt was there.

I agree. This is Calvinism. All people will reject it. This is why God elects.

Not really. Man has many chances to believe and is called to believe. God also knows Man will not come. This is why God elects.

Both C/A say this. Faith comes by hearing.

We Biblicist (Calvinist)...do believe this. But we also believe the whole Bible. Mankind rejects God. You say you are not a Calvinist, yet you say you are a Biblicist. They are the same thing.

sorry but you are...WRONG!!!!!!

God does not have to save one person.

so now you say man can come to God apart from grace. hummmmm

 

Somehow there is a connection between man's will and the sovereignty of God.

We may never know all the details, even in eternity...

NKJ Ecclesiastes 3:11 He has made everything beautiful in its time. Also He has put eternity in their hearts, except that no one can find out the work that God does from beginning to end.

HankD​

 

Thankyou for the encouragement.
MB

 

Salvation

One thing I noticed is how calvinist lean on how it was before the cross and Jesus being lifted, they remind us of esua, jacob and the pharoah and the way it was in the past.

Now that Christ is lifted up, the message is for all men and God wants all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth. He is only going to save believers in His Son, but it does not take away that God wants all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth.

We need to live for today and be reminded of what it was before Christ was lifted up, but also tell the world what God did through the cross, now salvation is for all men.

God with the elect included those who hear the message of thier salvation having believed.

 

One other thing you should notice is that this is exactly what Paul did. So it obviously has nothing to do with "before" or "after" the cross.

 

I like the old depiction of the arch at heaven's gate. On the outside as we enter we read, "Whosoever will may come." Once inside we look back and read, "Elect from before the foundation of the world."

I think Mr. Spurgeon penned it. It is proof, however, that calvinistic thought existed in heaven.

Cheers,

Jim

 

Yes he did to remind believers and you also know that Paul also said that God wanted all men to be saved and come to the knowlwedge of the truth and said He wasn't lying about it, and he also said that God also included with them them those who have heard the Gospel of our salvation having believed.

I'm not going to disagree with calvinist truth, but they are missing the biggest truth of all God also included those who have heard the Gospel of thier salvation having believed. Paul did good of reminding of us the truth, but he also told of the ones God also included them. He told us of the ones that was chosen before the foundation of the world and also of the one's whom God will include with them.

 

Yes. Calvinists don't disagree with that.

This is unintelligible.

 

1 Timothy 2:
1I urge, then, first of all, that requests, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for everyone— 2for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. 3This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.

We all know that all means everyone right not just believers, but because of God's word only believers will be saved.

Simple put God included with those who were chosen before the foundation of the world those who haved heared the Gospel of thier salvation having believed.

Ephesians 1:4For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will— 6to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves. 7In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God's grace 8that he lavished on us with all wisdom and understanding. 9And he[d] made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, 10to be put into effect when the times will have reached their fulfillment—to bring all things in heaven and on earth together under one head, even Christ.
11In him we were also chosen having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, 12in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory. 13And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession—to the praise of his glory.

 

Hi Jarthur001

We seem to be getting closer to an understanding.

You said.....

I can fully agree with this.
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You also came to this conclusion.......

Yes I do. (Don’t you?)
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Next you said.......

When we talk about God’s Omniscience, it is easy “for both of us to be right, at the same time”.
(Because our finite minds, can’t even come close to understanding God’s mind.)
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You said........

Well lets see that text again......

Your statement was, that you see Calvinism taught in this passage.
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I see this as......
Someone looking for truth, and God responding by sending someone to him to give him truth.
But you see this as.....
???????
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This next point, is why I keep coming back to this thread:
(Because if we keep discussing this subject, we start making progress.)

I said.......

Then you said......

You are saying: “God also knows Man will not come”
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So the heart of our disagreement is “why this eunuch was searching for truth?”

I say, that he was searching because of a decision he made in his heart.

But earlier in this response, you seem to say the same thing;

Above you said........

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I said........

Then you responded........

I must admit, that Calvinism, doesn’t look as dangerous, as it once did.