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Featured The "him" of John 6:44

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by The Biblicist, Jul 20, 2013.

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  1. Skandelon

    Skandelon <b>Moderator</b>

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    But have you considered who the "HIM's" are that Jesus could be addressing? Notice that the audience are Jews, most of which are being hardened from the truth, while only a select few (12 apostles, as later specified) are being drawn.

    The REASON they (his audience) was not ABLE ("enabled") to believe is clearly defined by Christ himself:

    "For this reason they could not believe, because, as Isaiah says elsewhere: 40 "He has blinded their eyes and deadened their hearts, so they can neither see with their eyes, nor understand with their hearts, nor turn--and I would heal them." (Jn 12:39)

    Notice he is speaking specifically of Israel, not all mankind from birth as the dogma of "Total Inability" presumes. While the Jews are being 'cut off' or 'blinded' from the truth temporarily, the Gentiles will listen (Acts 28:28), proving this is not an universal inborn condition of the Fall, but a temporarily imposed condition on a rebellious nation.
     
  2. SovereignMercy

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    Now when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of the Lord. And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.

    And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others. But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.
     
  3. Inspector Javert

    Inspector Javert Active Member

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    #23 Inspector Javert, Jul 21, 2013
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  4. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    I don't jump out of the immediate context unless there is not sufficient data within the immediate context to address the issue. Therefore, I am not goint to jump to chapter 12 or out of the book of John to read back into this context when there is plenty of data within the context to answers this definitively.

    If you want to discuss this passage in the context of chapter twelve then another thread would be appropriate. However, as a side note, the human nature is no different in a jew than in a Gentile. The same sunlight that melts the butter hardens the clay. No difference in the sun but in the nature of the butter versus clay. Man by nature is like clay, regardless if it is Jew or a gentile. For example, Romans 3:9 includes both Jews and Gentiles explicitly and applies Romans 3:10-12 to both. Likewise, Romans 8:7-8 was written to a GENTILE church.

    Your implication is that a lost Jew reacts differently than a lost gentiles to Christ and His word. Granted the Jews may be more hardened than the Gentile because of more exposure to light but the nature is the same.
     
  5. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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  6. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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  7. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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  8. DrJamesAch

    DrJamesAch New Member

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  9. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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  10. DrJamesAch

    DrJamesAch New Member

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    #30 DrJamesAch, Jul 22, 2013
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  11. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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  12. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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  13. The Biblicist

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    #33 The Biblicist, Jul 22, 2013
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  14. Inspector Javert

    Inspector Javert Active Member

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    The irony I find...is that he begins his entire OP with vs 44...and after I back it up to vs. 40....he gets huffy that I didn't start with vs. 39!
    If vs. 39 were so important initially, than his O.P. should have begun with vs. 39.

    It's called "moving the goalpost"
    http://fallacyaday.com/2011/10/moving-the-goalposts/
     
  15. saturneptune

    saturneptune New Member

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    It is obvious we do not agree on election, but I do appreciate the tone and wording of your posts. You and a few others over the last several weeks have called me on the tone of some of my posts on both sides, and believe it or not, after thinking about it, is a positive thing. One other member on your side also pointed this out to me, Webdog.

    The differences are not so sharp that they should put a barrier of mistrust and anger between brothers in Christ.
     
  16. Inspector Javert

    Inspector Javert Active Member

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  17. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    It was important to YOUR ARGUMENT not mine. You were trying to establish a contextual antecedent for "him" in verse 44 based on the phrase "I will raise him up at the last day" which you arbitrarily decided should be verse 40 when in fact that phrase is first used and defined in verse 39. You insisted that "him" in verse 44 ought to be determined by YOUR INTERPRETATION of verse 40. I merely pointed out that both your interpretation of verse 40 and that phrase was contradictd by its own immediate context.

    BTW I did not get "huffy" about anything. I simply pointed out that your analysis contradicted the context.
     
    #37 The Biblicist, Jul 23, 2013
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  18. Inspector Javert

    Inspector Javert Active Member

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    #38 Inspector Javert, Jul 23, 2013
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  19. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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  20. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Biblicist,

    That you are patiently laying out verse after verse and remaining on the topic is going very well.You call those back to the OP,and leave them in a position of having to face the truth which is being faithful to scripture.It is edifying to see the overall flow of scripture and not to get up in the disputing of words,and philosophical and emotional objections...
    Do not be weary in well doing, for in due time we shall reap.
     
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