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The history of how Sunday worship came about.

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Hobie, May 12, 2021.

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  1. Alofa Atu

    Alofa Atu Well-Known Member

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    LDS teach that the Father literally had intercourse (sexual relations) with his daughter (Mary) on earth (unmarried at that, and their 'god' already had a Heavenly wife (wives)) to produce the body for Christ. LDS teach that the essences of persons have always existed in eternity past, and obtained bodies of flesh by being sent to earth (more spiritualism).

    Seventh-day Adventists have never taught that.

    To compare the two theologies as equal is disingenuous.

    As I said, I am anti-Catholicism.

    The Bible teaches the Trio. As to their natures, that has already been discussed above, refer to that reply. Back to the OP please. If you desire to discuss this further, or again, please begin a new thread.
     
  2. Alofa Atu

    Alofa Atu Well-Known Member

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    You simply assert that. You produced no evidence for that. Don't expect me to go jumping through hoops to help you out either. Back to the OP please.
     
  3. Alofa Atu

    Alofa Atu Well-Known Member

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    As I said. I am anti-Catholicism.
     
  4. Alofa Atu

    Alofa Atu Well-Known Member

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  5. pythons

    pythons Member

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    The SDA's teach that God is one in EXACTLY the same way that the SDA's do & the only way for that to happen is for both organizations to be non-Trinitarian. The Mormons are up front and honest about this but with the SDA's you have to dig into a bit more. It appears the SDA's like to purport they are Trinitarian while they are not.

    SDA's refuse to say the Apostles or Nicene Creed in their Churches - when papacy hating Baptists, Lutheran's, Methodists and Eastern Orthodox have zero problems saying it why do you think that is? Be honest here.
     
  6. pythons

    pythons Member

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    The history of Christian assembly on the 1st day of the week is Apostolic & refraining to assemble IS A SIN.

    Hebrews 10,23
    Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised; And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works: Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching. For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

    A common anti-Trinitarian tactic is to list all the times the New Testament describes Paul and others "going into the Synagogue on the Sabbath days". THIS WAS NOT CHRISTIAN ASSEMBLY! Paul tells us CHRISTIANS to not forsake the assembling of "THEMSELVES" together. This means that every time you see an example of Paul walking into a Synagogue on the Sabbath IT WASN'T WORSHIP!

    Furthermore Jews today nor at the time of Christ would think of carrying money on Sabbath so that establishes that Christians were indeed assembling THEMSELVES together on the 1st day of the week exactly like 1 Corinthians 16 tells you they were.

    Its as I said earlier - the only groups that forbid the eating of certain foods post Resurrection of Christ are non-Trinitarians, same goes with soul sleeping and Sabbath observance to the exclusion of every other day of the week.
     
  7. pythons

    pythons Member

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    Ellen herself took part in REVISING Canright's "anti-Trinitarian" article so you can bet your last penny that Ellen White believed that Father God had a penis.

    Ellen White:
    "Christians should bear in mind that God has a personality as verily as has Christ. They should so represent Christ's person and conduct that by doing His works they will manifest the character and spirit of the Father. Christ is the express image of His Father's person and character.--Manuscript 130, 1902, p. 11. (Diary, "Christ's Example in Every Line of Work," October 27, 1902.)

    "Verily"
    synonyms:
    definitely · certainly · unquestionably · undoubtedly · positively · without (a) doubt · beyond any doubt · beyond doubt · beyond question · unmistakably · indubitably · undeniably · beyond the shadow of a doubt · surely · assuredly · in truth · truly · really · in reality · actually · in fact

    Tolfa, you didn't define what the term 'Personality' and 'Personality of God' meant - the SDA Pioneers and Ellen White did that. I've produced scores of examples to you that prove that the term meant flesh with every member and part of a perfect man.

    Would someone born with Hirschsprung's disease be what you'd consider a "perfect man" ? If you answer no and take Ellen White at her word than Father God HAS TO HAVE intestines and as Ellen said EVERY member and part of a perfect man.

    As for Ellen's choice of words its the SAME DEFINITION today as it was when Ellen White was running around teaching this stuff.

    Member | Definition of Member by Merriam-Webster
    1: a body part or organ: such as
    a: LIMB
    b: PENIS

    LOOK IT UP!

    As to how important it was for SDA's to believe this - see below

    RH October 8, 1903
    OF late the question has repeatedly come to me, Does it make any real difference whether we believe in the personality
    of God, as long as we believe in God? My answer invariably is, It depends altogether upon the standpoint from which we view it. If from the Spiritualist's, -the Christian Scientist's, the Universalist's, or if from the standpoint of any other " ist" or " ism," it makes but little or no difference. But from the standpoint of Seventh-day Adventists it makes all the difference in the world

     
  8. Eliyahu

    Eliyahu Active Member
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    Day of Worship was never changed inside the Bible.
    It was officially changed during Laodicean Council 363-364AD
    Acts 20:7 : The first day evening of the week is the Saturday night. Sunday Evening is the second day of the week.
    Rev 1:10 : Day of the Lord, Lord day was Sabbath. It was the Day of Jehovah. Jesus was called the Adonai of the Sabbath. Never called the Adonai of Sunday.
    Apostle Paul preached regularly on the Sabbath Acts 13-18.
    Lots of misunderstanding and mistranslation is NT about the Torah and Sabbath.
    The whole world is corrupted in this way since Constantine beautified the Holy Day of the Invincible Sun on March 7, 321.

    Eliyahu
     
  9. pythons

    pythons Member

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    Incorrect. Prior to the Resurrection of Christ no one worshipped Christ as God on any day of the week. Jews who reject who Jesus was / is - STILL WORSHIP on Saturn's day.

    Incorrect again. Starting the count of the day on the prior days evening is a Rabbinical innovation. The Biblical day stars at sunrise, exactly as Genesis describes it.

    Not to Christians, he preached to practicing Jews and others. IF those individuals accepted Christ they would than began to "assemble" with other Christians, ON THE 1st DAY OF WEEK exactly as Scripture describes it happening.

    Another gross misrepresentation of actual history. Would I be correct in assuming you also reject the Trinity Doctrine?
     
  10. Alofa Atu

    Alofa Atu Well-Known Member

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    Hey, good quote, but it's in the context of Hebrew 3-4, speaking of the 7th day, the sabbath of the LORD, the Lord's day, His rest, which I already addressed (and 'sin' is the transgression of the Law of God, see 1 John 3:4):

    The history of how Sunday worship came about.
     
  11. pythons

    pythons Member

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    Fantasy.

    There is only one context of Christian assembly, it was held on the 1st day of the week and it was Liturgical.
     
  12. Alofa Atu

    Alofa Atu Well-Known Member

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    I see you are back to quoting 'you' again. It would be nice if you would substantiate your position from scripture though. I have yet to see that from you, or any Catholic on this forum, though you do make plenty of assertions. Even the so called 'ecf' (easily confused fellows) quoted scripture to try to justify their position (even when they were often wrong).

    Look, pythons, simply saying something out of your mouth (fingers) doesn't justify a position taken. For one, you are not my authority, even if you speak in an authoritative tone/manner. The 'Catholic' church is not my authority. The so called 'pope' of the 'Catholic' church is not my authority. All the 'cardinals', 'bishops', and 'priests', and 'nuns' are not my authority. The Canon Law of the 'Catholic' church is not my authority. The Catechism of the 'Catholic' church is not my authority. The 'Catholic' Encyclopedia is not my authority. 'The 'majority', or even 'minority', is not my authority. Science falsely so called is not my authority. D.M. Canright is not my authority. The Review and Herald (and things like it) are not my authority.

    If you want to truly dialogue with me and attempt to convince me of any position, go to the authority - scripture (Isaiah 8:20), the Bible.

    I find all through scripture, my authority in all matters of faith and practice, the 7th day, the sabbath of the Lord God, the Lord's day.

    The many times that the "Sabbath" of the LORD is given in the Old Testament (Genesis to Malachi)

    Genesis 2:1-3; (see also, Genesis 18:19, 26:5, &c.)

    The sabbath commandment in the beginning with God (Genesis 2:1-3; Exodus 20:8-11; Psalms 119:142).
    The sabbath commandment with Adam (Mark 2:27; Ecclesiastes 12:13-14).
    The sabbath commandment with Enoch (Genesis 5:22,24; Hebrews 11:5; Isaiah 58:13)
    The sabbath commandment with Noah (Genesis 6:9; 2 Peter 2:5; Psalms 119:172).
    The sabbath commandment with Eber (Genesis 10:21,24-25; Exodus 3:18, 5:3, 7:16).
    The sabbath commandment with Abraham (Genesis 17:9, 18:19, 26:5; 2 Chronicles 20:7; Isaiah 41:8; James 2:23; John 15:14).
    The sabbath commandment with Isaac (Genesis 17:9, 18:19, 26:5).
    The sabbath commandment with Jacob/Israel (Genesis 17:9, 18:19, 26:5, 32:28).
    The sabbath commandment with Moses (Exodus 5:4-5;, 16:1-36, 20:8-11; Deuteronomy 5:12-15, 31:12-18). ...
    The sabbath commandment with Jesus (Luke 4:16-19).
    The sabbath commandment with the Apostles/Disciples (Acts 1:2, (4:24), 13:14,27,42,44, (14:15), 15:21, 16:13, 17:2, 18:4; Hebrews 3:11,18, 4:1,3,4,5,8,9,10,11; Revelation 1:10, 10:6, 12:17, 14:6-7)
    The sabbath commandment with us today (Hebrews 4:9; Revelation 12:17, 14:6-7; John 14:15; Exodus 20:6,8-11).
    The sabbath commandment on into eternity (Isaiah 66:23).​

    Exodus 5:4-5,8-9, 16:23-30, 20:8-11, 23:12, 31:12-18, 34:21, 35:1-3
    Leviticus 19:3,30, 23:3,11,15-16,38, 24:8, 26:2
    Numbers 15:32, 28:9
    Deuteronomy 5:12-15
    2 Kings 4:23, 11:5,7,9, 16:18
    1 Chronicles 9:32, 23:31
    2 Chronicles 2:4, 8:13, 23:4,8, 31:3
    Nehemiah 9:6,14, 10:31,33, 13:15-22
    Psalms 92:1, 146:6
    Isaiah 56:2,4,6, 58:13, 66:23
    Jeremiah 17:21-27
    Ezekiel 20:12-24, 22:8,26, 23:38, 44:24, 46:1,3-4,12
    Amos 8:5

    The many times that the "Sabbath" of the LORD is given in the New Testament:

    Matthew 12:1,2,5,8,10,11,12, 24:20, 28:1;
    Mark 1:21, 2:23,24,27,28, 3:2,4, 6:2, 7:6-9, 15:42, 16:1;
    Luke 4:16,31, 6:1,2,5,6,7,9, 13:10,14,15,16, 14:1,3,5, 23:54,56;
    John 5:9,10,16,18, 7:22,23, 9:14,16, 12:1 (calculated), 19:31;
    Acts 1:2, 13:14,27,42,44, 15:21, 16:13, 17:2, 18:4;

    Additional references are:

    John 12:1 (six days before the Passover, Jesus was at Lazarus' house, on Sabbath)
    Hebrews 3:11, 4:1,3,4,5,8,9,10,11; [Hebrews 4:9 "rest" Greek: sabbatismos, literal sabbath-keeping]
    Revelation 1:10 [kuriake hemera, "the Lord's Day" [the 7th Day Sabbath, not "the Day of the Lord", this is totally different in the Greek], see Genesis 2:1-3, Exodus 20:8-11, Deuteronomy 5:12:15, Isaiah 58:13, 66:23, Matthew 12:8, Mark 2:27,28; Luke 6:5 ]
    Revelation 10:6 [see also Exodus 20:11, 31:17; Nehemiah 9:6; Psalms 146:6; Acts 4:24, 14:15, Revelation 14:7]
    Revelation 14:7 [see previous], etc

    Additionally, further references in the Greek are [every single 'first [day] of the week' text, as each text clearly shows that the first day is simply a number, with no special association or designation, other than it is simply one day toward the culmination of the week, being the 7th Day the Sabbath of the LORD thy God]:

    Genesis 1:5 (Masoretes Hebrew) יום אחד׃ (Transliterated) yôm echäd f
    Matthew 28:1(a) - (Koine Greek) οψε δε σαββατων (Transliterated) oye de sabbatwn
    Matthew 28:1(b) - (Koine Greek) εις μιαν σαββατων (Transliterated) eiV mian sabbatwn
    Mark 16:2 - (Koine Greek) και λιαν πρωι της μιας σαββατων (Transliterated) kai lian prwi ths mias sabbatwn
    Mark 16:9 - (Koine Greek) αναστας δε πρωι πρωτη σαββατου (Transliterated) anastas de prwi prwth sabbatou
    Luke 24:1 - (Koine Greek) τη δε μια των σαββατων (Transliterated) th de mia twn sabbatwn
    John 20:1 - (Koine Greek) τη δε μια των σαββατων (Transliterated) th de mia twn sabbatwn
    John 20:19 - (Koine Greek) τη μια των σαββατων (Transliterated) th mia twn sabbatwn
    Acts 20:7 - (Koine Greek) εν δε τη μια των σαββατων (Transliterated) en de th mia twn sabbatwn
    1 Corinthians 16:2 - (Koine Greek) κατα μιαν σαββατων (Transliterated) kata mian sabbatwn
     
  13. Paul from Antioch

    Paul from Antioch Active Member

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    IMHO, which IS open to anyone's idea(s) of how or why we DO set aside Sunday as a time for publicly worshipping God, it seems to me that this was, for example how the Corinthian Church(-ies) set aside to combine their collecting of funds from people and/or churches might possibly be the reason why those Corinthians went on to adopt that day (Sunday in our Roman calendars.) as a day where Christians in that area of modern-day Greece, which back in their day was one of the principal centers of commerce for the then-known emerging Western cultures. Maybe my speculations may not be necessarily be correct in this matter, but that is the way I understand how the first century AD Christians did things. Comments anyone?
     
  14. pythons

    pythons Member

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    I quoted Hebrews 10, 23 which says that Christians are to gather THEMSELVES together. If Christians are gathering with practicing Jews at a Synagogue on Saturn's day THAT simply doesn't qualify as Christians gathering THEMSELVES together - as a matter of fact it precludes it.

    I referred you to 1 Corinthians 16 which is very clear:

    "Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye. Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come. And when I come, whomsoever ye shall approve by your letters, them will I send to bring your liberality unto Jerusalem."

    Paul expected each Christian that had something to give to have it with them WHEN HE CAME TO SEE THEM. Ironically the same day Paul came to see them was the SAME DAY the Christians assembled themselves together. Let me break this down for you even more Alofa.

    When SDA's gather "THEMSELVES" together in one place where an SDA Pastor watches as individual SDA's drop money into a collection plate - WHAT DAY IS IT THAT THIS TAKES PLACE? It's Saturday. Paul is telling you that Christians assembled themselves together on the 1st day of the week.

    Now, look very carefully below

    1 Corinthians 11, 17
    "Now in this that I declare unto you I praise you not, that ye come together not for the better, but for the worse. For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it. For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you. When ye come together therefore into one place, this is not to eat the Lord's supper. For in eating every one taketh before other his own supper: and one is hungry, and another is drunken. What? have ye not houses to eat and to drink in? or despise ye the church of God, and shame them that have not? what shall I say to you? shall I praise you in this? I praise you not. For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, that the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread: And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me. After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, this cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me. For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come. Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup. For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body. For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep. For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged. But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world. Wherefore, my brethren, when ye come together to eat, tarry one for another. And if any man hunger, let him eat at home; that ye come not together unto condemnation."

    Paul was correcting a Liturgical abuse that was taking place when Christians assembled THEMSELVES together and every text that mentions Christians assembling themselves together and doing things that would greatly offend Jews just happens to be on Sunday.

    You are simply ignoring the texts in favor of Ellen White's Interpretation Alofa - I've read up on how you've been programmed.

    ELLEN WHITE
    We are not to receive
    the words of those who come with a message that contradicts the special points of our faith. They gather together a mass of Scripture, and pile it as proof around their asserted theories. This has been done over and over again during the past fifty years. And while the Scriptures are God's word, and are to be respected, the application of them, if such application moves one pillar from the foundation that God has sustained these fifty years, is a great mistake. He who makes such an application knows not the wonderful demonstration of the Holy Spirit that gave power and force to the past messages that have come to the people of God. {1SM 161.2}

    The Sabbath is a "special point of SDA faith" is it not Alofa? As is the Creature Christ teaching. What Ellen is above saying is that YOU are to ignore PILES or MASSES of Scripture that repudiate SDA teaching simply for the fact that they go against SDA Teaching. Ellen Just said it - SDA's are to "respect the Bible" BUT if application of Scripture budges one SDA pillar doctrine you are to ignore it! Welcome to cultville.
     
    #114 pythons, May 23, 2021
    Last edited: May 23, 2021
  15. Alofa Atu

    Alofa Atu Well-Known Member

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    And I showed the context of the verse in Hebrews 3-4. The 7th day, the sabbath of the Lord, the Lord's day, His day of Rest.

    I showed the great contrast between truth (Seventh-day Adventist position) and error (Roman Catholicism), and their root sources. The Seventh-day Adventist position is rooted and founded upon the word of God, scripture, the Bible, while the Roman Catholic position is not rooted therein, and this shows how 'Sunday worship' came about. The problem is in the foundation. Roman Catholicism's foundation is not the word of God, but in religious humanism.
     
  16. pythons

    pythons Member

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    Do you observe the other "Feasts" of the Mosaic Law? If not why not?
     
  17. Alofa Atu

    Alofa Atu Well-Known Member

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    I already addressed this text:

    The history of how Sunday worship came about.

    Did you read, or did you merely look past what I presented from scripture? The text explains itself, but what you did was attempt to explain it. You left scripture as the foundation, and went to 'yourself' again.

    Look at this text carefully:

    1Co 16:1 Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye.
    1Co 16:2 Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.
    1Co 16:3 And when I come, whomsoever ye shall approve by your letters, them will I send to bring your liberality unto Jerusalem.
    1Co 16:4 And if it be meet that I go also, they shall go with me.​

    I can produce other texts which directly link to this text, in reference to the famine/dearth, and Galatia, as found in the book of Acts. Did you read and understand all the words, in English, or koine Greek if you prefer, which are individual (not group), separate from a body of believers, not in public, but privately at home, not in a common collection, but a private area in store, not as a normal routine, but a special occurrance under specific circumstance during a time of trouble, and would end up at a specific location, not just anywhere, being after the sabbath was completed, where the tabulation of materials could be done to know how much God had prospered to be able to send to those who had lack or want? Did you notice there is no gathering of believers, no mention of Lord's supper, cup , fruit of the vine, foot washing, towel, service, meal, food, etc?
     
  18. Alofa Atu

    Alofa Atu Well-Known Member

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    Yes and no at the same time. See

    Heb_7:12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.​

    The change goes from natural to spiritual, from type to antitype, from shadow to reality. See:

    1Co 10:6 Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.

    1Co_10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.

    1Co_15:46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.​

    So, natural, "No.":

    Isa_1:14 Your new moons and your appointed feasts my soul hateth: they are a trouble unto me; I am weary to bear them.

    Hos_2:11 I will also cause all her mirth to cease, her feast days, her new moons, and her sabbaths, and all her solemn feasts.

    Rom_14:17 For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.

    Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

    Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
    Col 2:17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

    Gal_4:10 Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years.​

    So, spiritual, "Yes.":

    1Co 5:7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:
    1Co 5:8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.​

    I still have the Passover and the Unleavened - Christ Jesus (John 1:29,36, the real and true Lamb of God).

    I still have the Firstfruits/Wavesheaf - Christ Jesus:

    1Co_15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
    1Co_15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.​

    I still have the Pentecost - Outpouring of the Holy Spirit upon Christ Jesus, see Acts 1-2, Psalms 133:1-3; Revelation 5:6.

    Then many years later (Daniel 8:13-14,26, etc., Revelation 9:5,6,10, 13-15, chapter 10, 14:6-12, etc) I have the Trumpets and true Day of Atonement (now ongoing, with Christ Jesus above as my High priest in Heaven before the Father in the Most Holy Place, see Daniel 7; Revelation 3), with Tabernacles to come.

    This picture may help you:
    https://ia802908.us.archive.org/16/items/awhn-bible-7-feasts-of-the-lord/AWHN - Bible - 7 Feasts Of The LORD.jpg

    [​IMG]
     
  19. pythons

    pythons Member

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    I have looked at it carefully. Paul was coming to 1 location where all the Christians in that area had gathered themselves together. Paul wanted every person to have ON THEM the money they wanted to offer for the Church so that when Paul arrived NO ONE WOULD HAVE TO LEAVE. It works the same way in your own Church. Are you suggesting that Paul ran around all Sunday going to each individuals dwelling to pick up the collections?
     
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  20. pythons

    pythons Member

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    Leviticus 23, you should read it and notice that "the Sabbath" is a feast day just like the rest of them that are mentioned in the Chapter. Had you been present at the Council of Jerusalem (Acts 15) you would have rebuked the Apostles and went your own way. That much is crystal clear.
     
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