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The Jehovah’s Witnesses and The Holy Spirit

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by SavedByGrace, Sep 15, 2020.

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  1. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

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    Jesus' Office is 'The Son' and He is Yehwah and, if not, that is straight-forward heresy;

    possibly, from as little as a misunderstanding of His Holding The Office of The Son?
     
  2. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    No. My position views the Son, John 1:3, Colossians 1:16-17, to be the LORD God the Creator, Genesis 1:1.
     
  3. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    John 1:2 reads, "ουτος ην εν αρχη προς τον θεον". I just cannot see how you can arrive at, "Who is like God" in this?. "οὗτος", is a "demonstrative pronoun", which is here used about The Word, Who has just been mentioned in verse 1. Jesus is nowhere in the Bible said to be LIKE God, because He IS 100% God, as the Father and Holy Spirit are!
     
  4. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

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    He is "I AM".
     
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  5. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    The Sonship of Jesus Christ is nowhere taught in Scripture as being an "office". This is new to the Bible
     
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  6. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Hebrews 1:5-6 refers to His bodily resurrection, Psalms 2:7, Acts of the Apostles 13:33, Colossians 1:18, Revelation 1:5.
     
  7. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

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    I is, "Wisdom", in Proverbs *, as set by the Proverbs 1:20 contect hermenuetic;

    20 "I lead in the way of righteousness, in the midst of the paths of judgment:

    21 "That I may cause those that love me to inherit substance; and I will fill their treasures.

    22 "The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.

    23 "I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was."

    "I", "Wisdom", is Jesus Christ.

    Jesus is, " Wisdom", in Proverbs 1:20, on through.

    Proverbs 1:20 (Gill)

    PREACH THIS!!!

    "Wisdom crieth without"

    Here the person instructing throughout this whole book is represented under the name of "Wisdom"; by which we are to understand not the attribute of divine wisdom displayed in the works of creation; nor the light of nature in man; nor the law of Moses given to the Israelites;

    ...nor the revelation of the divine will in general, as it is delivered out in the sacred Scriptures; nor the Gospel, and the ministry of it, in particular;

    but our Lord Jesus Christ;

    for the things spoken of Wisdom, and ascribed to it in this book, especially in the eighth and ninth chapters, show that a divine Person is intended, and most properly belong to Christ; who may be called "Wisdoms" F2, in the plural number, as in the Hebrew text, because of the consummate and perfect wisdom that is in him;

    as he is a divine Person, he is "the Logos", the Word and Wisdom of God; as Mediator, "all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge [are] hid" in him, ( Colossians 2:3 ) ; and, as man, "the Spirit of Wisdom" rests upon him without measure, ( Isaiah 11:2 ) .

    This, with what follows to the end of the chapter, is a prophecy of the ministry of Christ in the days of his flesh, and of the success of it; and of the calamities that should come upon the Jews for the rejection of him: and Wisdom is here said to "cry", as Christ did, ( John 7:28 John 7:37 ) ;

    the word signifies to cry both in a sorrowful way, as Jesus did when he cried to Jerusalem, weeping over it, ( Matthew 23:37 ) ( Luke 19:41 ) ;

    and in a joyful one, which well suits with the Gospel, as preached by him; a joyful sound expressed by piping, in opposition to John's ministry, which was a mournful one, ( Matthew 11:17 ) ;

    for crying here means no other than the preaching of the word; which is such a cry as that of heralds, when they publicly proclaim peace or war; so Wisdom or Christ, is said to "proclaim liberty to the captives", and "the acceptable year of the Lord", ( Isaiah 61:1 Isaiah 61:2 ) .

    This cry was made "without" the city of Jerusalem, and without that part of the country which was properly called Jewry;

    Christ first preached in the land of Galilee;

    or this may mean the Gentile world, where Christ preached, though not in person, yet by his apostles, whom he sent into all the world to preach the Gospel to every creature; she uttereth her voice in the streets:
    of the city of Jerusalem, and other places;

    nor is this contrary to ( Matthew 12:19 ) ;

    which is to be understood of crying in a bawling and litigious way, of lifting up the voice in self-commendation, neither of which Christ did;

    and yet might cry and utter his voice in the streets, that is, publicly preach his Gospel there, as he did;

    and he also sent his servants into the streets and lanes of the city to call in sinners by the ministry of the word, ( Luke 14:21 ) ;

    which perhaps may be meant of places in the Gentile world; nor is this sense to be excluded here;

    it may be figuratively understood of the public ministration of the word and ordinances in the church called the streets and broad ways of it, ( Song of Solomon 3:2 ) .

    re:

    Proverb 8:29 "When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth:

    30 "Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him;

    31 "Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights were with the sons of men.

    32 "Now therefore hearken unto me, O ye children: for blessed are they that keep my ways."
     
  8. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

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    Thanks, yes, add it in there if you need to.

    Those white pages in the front of the Bilbe and in the back where put there, by...."""someone"""????

    Might as well add you some "Goof Stuff" onto them.

    They are there, for a..."""reason"""...

    ...

    Looks like we may be spending more time on thinking we know the definition of a word, rather than observing where and what we are reading.

    Do you need to learn any of the following?

    It's not like most people know to make all these divisions of God's Body of divinity, in The Bible, but if they did, they may profit from it.

    Pick One.

    † Of the Unity of God
    † Of a Plurality in the Godhead
    Of the Personal Relations in Deity
    Of the Distinct Personality and Deity of the Father
    Of the Distinct Personality and Deity of the Son

    † Of the Distinct Personality and Deity of the Holy Spirit
    † Of the Incarnation of Christ
    † Of Christ's State of Humiliation
    † Of the Active Obedience of Christ
    † Of the Passive Obedience of Christ
    † Of the Burial of Christ
    † Of the Resurrection of Christ
    † Of the Ascension of Christ
    † Of the Session of Christ at the Right Hand of God
    Of the Prophetic Office of Christ
    † Of the Priestly Office of Christ

    † Of the Intercession of Christ
    † Of Christ's Blessing his People as a Priest
    † Of the Kingly Office of Christ
    † Of the Spiritual Reign of Christ
     
    #148 Alan Gross, Sep 19, 2020
    Last edited: Sep 19, 2020
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  9. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    FYI the two Bible references (Colossians 1:15, Revelation 3:14) for which JWs use to claim the Son of God is a creature and as such God's first creation.

    What they need to hear from a Christian are three truths.
    1. The sole Creator, John 1:3 became part of His own creation when He became flesh, John 1:10, John 1:14.
    2. That "firstborn" in Colossians 1:15 mean as a man, being as a man being now part of His own creation, is the first to be resurrected per Colossians 1:18, Revelation 1:5.
    3. As the first to be resurrected He is the beginning of His new creation, the New Heaven and Earth, Revelation 21:1 per Revelation 3:14 which is per Colossians 1:18.

    The main thing the JW needs to believe is as a Bible believing Christian this is your understanding and so you believe those three truths.
     
  10. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    maybe a new thread is needed on the JW's and Jesus Christ
     
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  11. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

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    That is some, very hardcore, Bible Teaching you have there.

    What hit me was that is so ingenious that it took Satan to devise the errors they have and that the men WOULD NOT EVEN KNOW HOW DEEP THIS IS and WHAT SATAN WAS TARGETING, that you resolve.

    Maybe.

    Anyway, this is A GIFT. Wonderful Bible work.
     
  12. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    The Jesus Christ the Creator I believe in is ". . . The LORD . . ." in Proverbs 8:22. John 1:3, Colossians 1:16-17.
     
  13. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    It is most certainly NOT Jesus Christ in Proverbs 8:22, but "wisdom" personified! In this very chapter, "wisdom" is called "her, she", as in many other places, hardly "The Son of God"???
     
  14. Salty

    Salty 20,000 Posts Club
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    Six hour warning
    This thread will be closed no sooner than 1230 am (Sun) EDT / 930 pm (Sat) PDT
     
  15. percho

    percho Well-Known Member
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    I not only agree with you I would like to add;

    and Simon Peter answering said, 'Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.'

    And Jesus answering said to him, 'Happy art thou, Simon Bar-Jona, because flesh and blood did not reveal it to thee, but my Father who is in the heavens. Lit. The Father of me

    Father Son, ummmm
    Son Father, ummmmmmmmmmmmmmm

    Beats me.
     
  16. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

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    Doth not wisdom cry?

    Proverbs 8:1 - Meaning and Commentary on Bible Verse

    &c.] Christ, who is the Wisdom of God; (See Gill on Proverbs 1:20); and which clearly appears from his subsistence with the Father, his eternal existence, and from many personal properties, characters, and actions ascribed to him throughout the whole of this chapter, and in the following.

    "Crying" is here attributed to him, which signifies proclaiming, publishing, preaching the everlasting Gospel, which directs men in the right way of enjoying peace, comfort, honour, and eternal happiness;

    the allusion is to an herald that this up his voice aloud at noon day in the public streets when he proclaims;

    and is opposed to the whispers of a harlot, at night, in a corner; truth seeks no corner, its voice is heard at noon day, it will bear the light.

    Now, "does not" or "shall not Wisdom cry", or Christ preach;

    verily he does or will, in his word, by his prophets under the former dispensation; in his own person, and by his apostles and ministers, under the present;

    who then would hearken to the alluring voice of a harlot, or hear Jezebel the wicked prophetess teach, when Christ himself preaches, or however by his faithful ministers? and understanding put forth her voice?

    the same with Wisdom, or Christ, see ( Proverbs 8:14 ) ; by whose voice the Gospel is meant, which is the voice of Christ, which is heard and followed by the sheep of Christ, and not the voice of a stranger; and "putting it forth", giving or uttering it, signifies the publication of it.
     
  17. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

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    You're told and it beats you that easy?

    Different.

    You need to be Taught A LOT.

    † Of Christ's State of Humiliation
    † Of the Active Obedience of Christ
    † Of the Passive Obedience of Christ
     
  18. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    I am confused by your answer. It is my view "The LORD" in Proverbs 8:22 to be the Son of God, the Creator, John 1:3, Colossians 1:16-17. And that spirit, she whom says the LORD "possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old." In Proverbs 8:14 she says, "I am understanding; . . ."
     
  19. Squire Robertsson

    Squire Robertsson Administrator
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    This thread is closed.
     
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