The Law of Moses Has Not Been Abolished

It is constituted on better promises. My point is that the New Covenant is not on the same terms as is the Old Covenant but with better promises. The focus has ALWAYS been salvation in Christ, in God's ONE Promise (Genesis 3). But the Old Covenant and the Mosaic Law was NEVER intended to salvific. If we never are able to grasp that simple concept then we can never move beyond an elementary understanding.

The New Testament is a better covenant. It is a new covenant. You stated that the New Covenant did not render the Old Covenant obsolete. I have provided you with exact Scripture stating otherwise. If you love God then you will obey His commandment, not obedience credited as love but obedience resulting from love. It is a very simple concept, and it is echoed throughout Scripture as a whole (both Old and New Testaments).

 

Yet there are so many passages that state otherwise. For example, Jesus says that the Old Testament points to Him (not the other way around). Do you have any passages supporting your hypothesis?

 

I believe Jesus is the embodiment of every word preceding from God, so I guess my answer is yes and no. It's yes because if we are truly in Christ then we are in obedience to God. We are not obeying to obey Torrah or even the Old Testament beyond Torah. Obedience is descriptive of our life. And it's no in the context Torah was never given to us to obey. Where it was commanded of Israel to satisfy certain demands (the demands of the Law) it is given us as a rule to see that we are in Christ.

 

If Torah is the foundation of belief then towards what foundation do you suppose Abraham's faith was removed as righteousness? The poor fella had no chance as the Law would be given 4 centuries later.

You are presenting a false dichotomy. By saying we obey God because we love God I am NOT saying not to obey God. I don't understand how you even arrive at that conclusion, but can assure you it is a strawman.

Here is the difference.

By your standard Christians need to print off Torah and make sure they are following the rules in order to love God. This is heresy. Just as Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob....to name a few....were not under the Law (Torah) neither are we. But we can learn from not only Torah but the Old Testament as well.

By the standard of God, however, if we love Him (if we are in Christ) then we will obey His commandments. There is no need to look to a law because we will be doing those things if indeed we love God. The Law serves an entirely different purpose for the believer.

 

Of course Torah is in line with God. It was his covenant with Israel. If you were to print of the Old Testament Scripture you'd find it in line with God as well. And even before Torah, the Abrahamic Covenant is in line with God. And so is the New Covenant.

And no one is saying we are not to obey God's commands. Your constant reiteration of that strawman argument is a fools errand getting you nowhere. I've said over and over again that if we love God, if we are in Christ, then we obey God's command.

1. Do you know the difference between the Old Testament and Torah? If so, why do you use them interchangeably? If not, shouldn't you?

2. How do you think Noah, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob were considered to be right with God since they knew nothing of Torah?

3. What do you believe is the difference between the Abrahamic Covenant and the Mosaic Law? Why does Paul look to Abraham and not Moses, to the Promise and not the Old Covenant, when it comes to our faith?

4. What is the difference between the Old and the New Covenant?

 

I think that we have been talking past each other to an extent (but perhaps not). Here are a few observations:

First, I think you may give Christians a little less credit than they deserve when it comes to the difference between Torah and the Old Testament.

The Tanakh is what we would refer to as the Old Testament, not Torah. The Tanakh contains Torah, Nevi'im, and Ketuvim (Pentateuch or the Law, the Prophets and the Writings). God’s word consists in all three (as evidenced by Jesus quoting all as the Scripture).

Often when Paul speaks of the Law (i.e., the Law of Moses) he is speaking of Torah. There are, however, several occasions where Paul speaks of God’s law as something foundational to Torah (i.e., a general revelation of God’s moral character, the “fathers” pre-Moses existing apart from Torah, ect.). What you seem to be talking about is not Torah at all but God’s law. Torah consisted of moral, ceremonial, and civil laws, statutes and observances that were given under a covenant to Israel at a specific time – a specific beginning with Moses (Deut. 5) and a specific ending with Christ (Heb. 8). But God’s law forms a foundation to all of these covenants.

Second, I disagree that these covenants are built upon one another as no covenant once given can be altered. I would, however, agree that some covenants exist within one larger covenant (one that pre-dates Torah).

I disagree that the New Covenant has the same terms, mostly because it does not. The terms of the Old Covenant was in fact obedience to comply with conditions of the covenant. The terms of the New Covenant is faith whereby one is transformed into something that complies with the conditions of the covenant. They are entirely different terms. The promise of the Old Covenant to man is a curse, but to the Righteous or Holy One (God’s Anointed) it is in fact life. The promise of the New Covenant is not a curse but to be delivered from the curse. It is life in God’s Anointed.

But while the Law is made obsolete (because it is fulfilled in Christ), those in Christ are of course obligated to obedience. That's who they are.

Elohim is found throughout Scripture. It has been applied to pagan gods (Exodus 12:12 describing the Elohim of Egypt, 1 Kings 11:33 where it speaks of Chemosh, the god or Elohim of Moab) , to prophets (to Moses in Exodus 4:16), to dead spirits (the spirit of Samuel appearing before Saul in 1 Samuel 28:13), and of course probably most often to God.

 

Don't be foolish. You asked what the word was and where it was found and I told you. I have no clue what direction you wanted to take it, so I simply answered your question as it was asked.

You keep confusing Torah with God's law or commands in toto. If you mean Gods revealed nature then we still disagree because we do not obey God to merit salvation. We obey because because He saved us.

 

My bad, :( I misunderstood what you were asking (I was wondering where you were going with the question).

Yes, Torah and the Law are both used to speak of the Books of Moses. Torah itself did not exist during the life of Abraham. What you are referring to, I believe, is not Torah (or the Law) but God's law (God's standards of conduct for man based on His own character and nature).

So in that context, God's law is an expression of His own nature and we can see God’s law threaded throughout His interactions with man because they are of God. God acts within covenants (God’s words or promises to man constitute covenants....God is faithful to his word). And God’s law is seen here. The Abrahamic Covenant is an expression of God’s law given to Abraham, his Seed, and his descendants. Torah is an expression of God’s law given to Israel 400 years later. Nevi'im and Ketuvim are expressions of God’s law as well. And so is the New Covenant. They all express God’s law because they reveal God Himself.

The fullest revelation of God is found in His Son Jesus Christ. If we are living in Christ, dying to ourselves and alive in Him, then we are in obedience to God’s law. If we obey God’s law, then we are not disobedient to God’s commands (where ever they may be found).

It is a simple concept I am trying to explain here. If you obey the fuller command, you by default are obedient to the subset of commands. If I build a bookshelf as it should be built, then I by default have installed the third shelf up correctly. If I am in Christ, then I will obey God’s commands because to be in Christ is to love God and if I love God I will obey his commands.

 

Abraham did not observe the Law as he was not under the Law (per Paul). He did not obey Torah, but he was aware of God's law at least in part (he had a lesser revelation anticipating the fuller in Christ). Christians indeed observe the Sabbath as they have entered that rest.