The "Message" Bible ???

Scott:

See how he avoided the claim that he was avoiding the arguments?


S&T:

You are falling back on the "we" thing again Scott. Please make your own arguments.

 

Scott:

Peterson' rendering is accurate, and all of these fall under the three topics that Peterson listed.

S&T:

So then, is this translation like the readers digest condensed version? If you read it you can get the gist, but not necessarily the true meaning in it's fullness?

Scott:

Just because it doesn't have the words that you want doesn't make it right.

S&T:

The words that I pointed out were not my choice, they were words that were inspired by the Spirit of God, and they are missing. God means what He says and in this instance was very specific. Most people need to have it spelled out. Generalizations create a sloppy understanding. This passage is key because it is about the standards of entering into Heaven, which is no small thing.

 

Just a question. Through out this thread there's been much postulating that the Message is in fact just as good as the Word of God, although it is clearly Peterson's paraphrase and his personal ideas about what the Word of God is saying--which is obviously what a paraphrase is--putting an idea or text into one's own words. It cannot be compared to the Greek--as Scott has shown by his inability to answer direct questions about the Greek. Because it is a paraphrase, the message would also be a reflection of any religious bias that Mr Peterson has.


Referring back to the KJV in Psalm 119:11 --my paraphrase---states that a person is supposed to hide the Word of God in their hearts so that they will not sin against God. The conclusion is that by knowing the Word of God, taking it in as heart and head knowledge, sin will be avoided, because of a heart desire to please God. Now the question is this: Peterson put the Greek into his own words, which is then the reworking and rewriting of the Word of God for publishing purposes which he stated and Navpress stated he did. He did not translate it word for word, so ..... which is the Word of God to be hidden in our hearts so as not to sin against God. Peterson's ideas about the Word of God or ? I have decided to quote the KJV this time:



2 Timothy 3
3 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.
14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;
15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

Now from the message:

2Ti 3
13 Unscrupulous con men will continue to exploit the faith. They're as deceived as the people they lead astray. As long as they are out there, things can only get worse.
14 But don't let it faze you. Stick with what you learned and believed, sure of the integrity of your teachers--
15 why, you took in the sacred Scriptures with your mother's milk! There's nothing like the written Word of God for showing you the way to salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.
16 Every part of Scripture is God-breathed and useful one way or another--showing us truth, exposing our rebellion, correcting our mistakes, training us to live God's way.
17 Through the Word we are put together and shaped up for the tasks God has for us.
 

If other scholars do not view The Message as a Bible, the Bible incidentally which is ultimately viewed by many as the inspired and kept Word of God, can we embrace Peterson's Message as being of the same caliber and same authority? Was it given by direct revelation of the Holy Spirit?


KJV
2 Peter 1
20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

2:1  But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
2  And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.

 

message

2Pe 1
20 The main thing to keep in mind here is that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of private opinion.
21 And why? Because it's not something concocted in the human heart. Prophecy resulted when the Holy Spirit prompted men and women to speak God's Word.

2Pe 2
1 But there were also lying prophets among the people then, just as there will be lying religious teachers among you. They'll smuggle in destructive divisions, pitting you against each other--biting the hand of the One who gave them a chance to have their lives back! They've put themselves on a fast downhill slide to destruction,
2 but not before they recruit a crowd of mixed-up followers who can't tell right from wrong. They give the way of truth a bad name.

KJV
Ephesians 3
1 For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,
2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:
3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; 6  That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:
7 Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.


message

Eph 3
2 I take it that you're familiar with the part I was given in God's plan for including everybody.
3 I got the inside story on this from God himself, as I just wrote you in brief.
4 As you read over what I have written to you, you'll be able to see for yourselves into the mystery of Christ.
5 None of our ancestors understood this. Only in our time has it been made clear by God's Spirit through his holy apostles and prophets of this new order.
6 The mystery is that people who have never heard of God and those who have heard of him all their lives (what I've been calling outsiders and insiders) stand on the same ground before God. They get the same offer, same help, same promises in Christ Jesus. The Message is accessible and welcoming to everyone, across the board.
7 This is my life work: helping people understand and respond to this Message. It came as a sheer gift to me, a real surprise, God handling all the details.

If the Apostle Paul wrote that he, by direct revelation of the Holy Spirit--not their own ideas--, as well as the other apostles, wrote their various epistles to the new believers---does Peterson, who elimiates many verses, words, concepts and sound doctrine which is found in the Greek texts--does he present the Word of God as God Himself intended, in order to obtain sound doctrine and avoid sin?
 
KJV
1 Timothy 1
9  Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,
10  For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;
11  According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust. 12  And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, for that he counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry;


message

1Ti 1
9 It's obvious, isn't it, that the law code isn't primarily for people who live responsibly, but for the irresponsible, who defy all authority, riding roughshod over God, life,
10 sex, truth, whatever!
11 They are contemptuous of this great Message I've been put in charge of by this great God.
12 I'm so grateful to Christ Jesus for making me adequate to do this work. He went out on a limb, you know, in trusting me with this ministry.


KJV
2 Timothy 4
1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;
2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
5 But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry.

 

message
2Ti 4
1 I can't impress this on you too strongly. God is looking over your shoulder. Christ himself is the Judge, with the final say on everyone, living and dead. He is about to break into the open with his rule,
2 so proclaim the Message with intensity; keep on your watch. Challenge, warn, and urge your people. Don't ever quit. Just keep it simple.
3 You're going to find that there will be times when people will have no stomach for solid teaching, but will fill up on spiritual junk food--catchy opinions that tickle their fancy.
4 They'll turn their backs on truth and chase mirages.
5 But you--keep your eye on what you're doing; accept the hard times along with the good; keep the Message alive; do a thorough job as God's servant.


KJV
Titus 1
9 Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers.
10 For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision:
11 Whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre's sake...

Titus 2
1  But speak thou the things which become sound doctrine:


Tit 1
9 and have a good grip on the Message, knowing how to use the truth to either spur people on in knowledge or stop them in their tracks if they oppose it.
10 For there are a lot of rebels out there, full of loose, confusing, and deceiving talk. Those who were brought up religious and ought to know better are the worst.
11 They've got to be shut up. They're disrupting entire families with their teaching, and all for the sake of a fast buck.

Tit 2
1 Your job is to speak out on the things that make for solid doctrine.

 

Scott stated:

Tell me, why is the KJV translation worthy and the Message not.

S&T:

There are many translations, that for the most part accurately reflect the Word of God. I find the message confusing, and personally believe that it does not fall into that category.

Scott:

What does the KJV have that the Message doesn't?

S&T:

For the most part, the ability to be proven from the original Greek.

 

I have a list of questions for the forum. If some seem redundant I apologize, but I am trying to be specific.

Does anyone on the forum believe that the Message was given by direct revelation of the Holy Spirit?
If so, are his words by "direct revelation of the Holy Spirit" as were the
words given to the Apostles and recorded in the original Greek and
Hebrew manuscripts?

Is Mr. Peterson's paraphrase, which is not a translation according to the
publisher and Mr Peterson, and his personal ideas about what the Word
of God is saying, which is what a paraphrase is [putting an idea
or text into one's own words] equal to an NASB, KJV, or even an NIV?

Which is the true Word of God ? Mr. Peterson's ideas about the Word of God or
the words given the Apostles by direct revelation? And can we embrace Mr Peterson's Message as being of the same caliber and same authority as those given by the Apostles?

Is it to be understood that even though words/doctrine appear to be eliminated
from the original Greek in the paraphrase of the message and modified with a
particular religious bias, that many of the original doctrines given by
the Holy Spirit to the Apostles, which were to be relayed to believers, are
now unnecessary, not needed, and rather God is giving new revelation and
new Scriptures to the world via Mr Peterson?

How many on this forum actually know anything about Eugene Peterson,
his life, his beliefs, his associations, in order to judge him as a
source of truth? Not the packaged Navpress bio, but actually have,
before buying his product, found out what his beliefs and doctrine are.

Since it appears to myself and others that the Message eliminates and changes doctrines and
words, eliminates important verses, and so on, is God going against His own
Word and saying that it is now acceptable to change, add to or subtract from
the Word of God, which is known by actual scholars to be derived from the
original Greek, Hebrew and Aramaic manuscripts?

 

Scott, 

Todays high school and college students, including those who you have under your care and tutorship, would be able to understand the message because it was written at a grade 4 level of understanding versus, for example, the KJV being at a grade 12 level. Usually between grade 10-12 is where most students learn Shakespeare's elizabethan english stories like Macbeth, Hamlet, etc, and they comprehend and understand the meaning in that context. Sadly, in today's world the dumbing down of understanding is not only taking place in the secular schools, but in the "christian" places of learning as well.


Odd that we find that addressed in the Scriptures, too. Although possibly with a different meaning that is found in Mr Peterson's message.

From the "workhorse" of teaching the way to salvation .... the KJV:

2 Timothy 4
3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

2 Peter 3
15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.
18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.

1 Cor 3
12  Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13  Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14  But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
15  But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
16  For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

Ephesians 4
14  That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

2 Corinthians 4
1 Therefore seeing we have this ministry, as we have received mercy, we faint not;
2 But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God.
3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
5 For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake.
6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.
7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.

 

Originally posted by Spirit and Truth:

Todays high school and college students, including those who you have under your care and tutorship, would be able to understand the message because it was written at a grade 4 level of understanding versus, for example, the KJV being at a grade 12 level.

Scott answered:

Not true, according to KJVO-literature. According to http://www.av1611.org/kjv/kjveasy.html, the KJV is actually at a lower reading level than the other versions. It would seem that it is the KJV that is written at a fourth grade level or so, not the message.

S&T:
Your argument is not with me Scott. I deferred to one of the worlds leading publishers and distributors of bibles:

http://www.zondervanbibles.com/translations.htm

KJV King James Version
Reading Level: 12.00
Readability: Difficult to read due to 17th-century English vocabulary and word order
Reference Support Material: High
Number of Translators: 54
Translation Philosophy/Format: Word-for-word
Notes: Traditionally loved and accepted by all Christians. Purpose in translation was "to deliver God's book unto God's people in a tongue which they can understand." Published in 1611. Timeless treasure.


The Message
(New Testament and OT Wisdom Books)
Reading Level: 4.8
Readability: An easy-to-read, modern-language paraphrase
Reference Support Material: Low
Number of Translators: Eugene H. Peterson
Translation Philosophy/Format: Thought-for-thought. Converts the original languages into the tone and the rhythms of modern-day American speech while retaining the idioms and meaning of the original languages.
Notes: This paraphrase was translated using the rhythms and tone of contemporary English to communicate to the modern reader. New Testament published in 1993, Old Testament in 2002.