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Featured The Messianic Kingdom?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by OldRegular, May 26, 2015.

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  1. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    You really do need to study reading comprehension. I was not talking about what you said. I was talking about what you believed. Read it again, in large print:

     
  2. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    That is false and you know it:
    I have shown the translations above.

    Now you tell me where do the people who wrote the CEV get the word "foreigner"? Where do they find the name "Horrible Thing"? Out of the pit of hell or the mind of Satan I suspect. None of the other translations use those words. There is no other explanation! It was sick of you to use that blasphemous rendering to slime me! Darby's translation does not blaspheme like the CEV but is consistent with all the others.


    So you are calling the King James Version (KJV), the American Standard Version (ASV), the New King James Version (NKJV), the English Standard Version (ESV), the New American Standard Bible (NASB), the World English Bible (WEB), the Darby Translation (DARBY), and the 1599 Geneva Bible (GNV) commentaries? Very perceptive of you DHK.

    I simply presented the footnotes to the Geneva Bible because they confirm my understanding of Daniel 9:27.

    Footnotes to 1599 Geneva Bible:

    {a} Daniel 9:27. By the preaching of the Gospel he confirmed his promise, first to the Jews, and after to the Gentiles.

    {b} Daniel 9:27. Christ accomplished this by his death and resurrection.

    {c} Daniel 9:27. Meaning, that Jerusalem and the Sanctuary should be utterly destroyed for their rebellion against God, and their idolatry: or as some read, that the plague shall be so great, that they shall be all astonied at them.
     
  3. revmwc

    revmwc Well-Known Member

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  4. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    [..............................}
     
    #64 OldRegular, May 29, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: May 29, 2015
  5. revmwc

    revmwc Well-Known Member

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    Keil & Delitzsch

    They make it clear that the he is the ungodly prince and the anti-christ.

    They knew their Hebrew and Delitzsch was partially from Jewish lineage and knew the tenses of Daniel very well.
     
  6. revmwc

    revmwc Well-Known Member

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  7. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    You really need to learn to use the quote feature properly! The above is correct. Please don't attribute anything I post to yourself!

    It is not in Scripture but that poses no problem to the Rapture Ready. The pre-trib-"snatching away" of the Church is not in Scripture either.

    I have posted on numerous occasions the claim by dispensational scholars that blood sacrifices will be offered during the millennial kingdom. And with Jesus Christ sitting right there in Davids chair!
     
  8. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    It is a paraphrase, and as a paraphrase it is in keeping with the other translations.
    For example, the Living Bible says:
    ..."the Enemy shall utterly destroy the sanctuary of God."
    Now who is the "Enemy"? Christ? No.
    The translations don't show anything different than the CEV.

    It is their rendition as a paraphrase. They get it from the context, both of verse 26 and 27. The person being spoken of is the "coming prince," who is not Christ. (vs.26). That is the "he", the antecedent to which he refers to is "prince," and that prince is a coming Antichrist.
    No they are translations. Nothing wrong with them. However, the Geneva Bible had some commentary on this passage, which of course, is not inspired.
    And they are wrong.

    Verse 27 says nothing about Christ. That must be read into the passage.

    Here is the KJV again:
    Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
    Dan 9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
    Dan 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
    Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

    Here are some notes on verse 27 by MacArthur.
    From the MacArthur Bible Commentary.
     
  9. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    Verse 27 says nothing about a foreigner; that is what happens when people decide that the Word of GOD really isn't the Word of GOD. Verse 27 says nothing about “Horrible Thing”; that is what happens when people decide that the Word of GOD really isn't the Word of GOD.

    For all I know the CEV was produced by Rapture Ready people. Daniel 9:27 would lead one to believe that.

    And you are mistaken The antecedent of the He of Verse 27 is the Messiah of verse 26 who is murdered by the Jews AFTER 69 weeks, actually the middle of the 70th week. It was the sacrifice of Jesus Christ that brought an end to the blood sacrifices in the Temple. The unbelieving Jews just were as Stephen said a "stiff-necked people" who conspired to with Rome to crucify the Lord of Glory. GOD in HIS own time and way brought an end to these useless sacrifices through the destruction of Jerusalem and of the Temple in 70AD. Jacob's time of trouble I suppose!

    Daniel 9:26, 27
    26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
    27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
     
  10. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    The only reason the CEV used the word "foreigner" is that they recognized who the antecedent was. "He" refers right back to "prince" a very evil person. He is a Roman, which is indeed a foreigner. In no way can "he" refer back to Messiah. The antecedent is "prince." There is your confusion.

    How do you read all of that into those two verses. When the Hebrew text was written, not only was there no chapter divisions, there was no verse divisions. In fact the Masoretes also had to put in the vowel pointing to make it easier to read for those learning Hebrew.

    Therefore you would read this:
    ...and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week:
    --There is no mention of the Messiah. He is not mentioned here. The antecedent is "the prince," the one who "shall come." And when he "shall come" he "shall" confirm the covenant with many for one week.
    First, Jesus never did that.
    Second, context rules out Jesus.
    Third, it all is future.
    Fourth, the one who is to come is one who is against God.
    Fifth, the one who is to come will confirm a covenant with the Jews for one week or seven years. And then in the midst of that period of time he will break it.

    These events have yet to occur:
    What are the events mentioned:
    --to finish the transgression.
    --to make an end of sins
    --to make reconciliation for iniquity.
    --to bring in everlasting righteousness.
    --to seal up the vision and prophecy.
    --to anoint a most holy place. (vs. 24)

    All these events have to do with the Jewish people.
    All these events will take place within that 70th week.
     
  11. revmwc

    revmwc Well-Known Member

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    I heard it taught once and the context was that the sacrifice would be a memorial sacrifice. However, since the 1000 Kingdom is a time when the Earth turns back to pre-flood existence, animals eating herbs as they did before the flood, the sacrifices offered by Adam and Abel were looking forward to a coming Savior, I really don't see a memorial sacrifice.
     
  12. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    This was one of the many ideas offered that started me questioning the teaching after studying the book of Hebrews....the "once for all time" sacrifice.
     
  13. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    You are entitled to your opinion and I am entitled to believe you are absolutely wrong. Your interpretation is the standard dispensational interpretation of Daniel's 70th week and it is wrong.
     
  14. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    As I said earlier a close reading of Hebrews is the death knell of pre-trib-dispensationalism! But I could say the same about other books of the Bible!
     
  15. revmwc

    revmwc Well-Known Member

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    Of course Jesus Promise to those who keep the WORD of His Patience is all we really need to know we won't go through the time of Trial that is coming upon the WHOLE world.

    Revelation 3:10 "Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth."

    Couple that with Paul's promise, 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17,
    13 "But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
    14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
    15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
    16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
    17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord"

    There will be a snatching away. You just need to decide when. And we don't see it at the end.

    We do see This in Revelation 20:5-7,
    5 "But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
    6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
    7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,"

    We see a separate resurrection of the dead that is the unbeliever.

    Scripture is very clear, there is a snatching away, Jesus promised all who keep the Patience of His Word that is salvation, will be kept from the time of Trial coming upon the WHOLE WORLD, from Revelation 6:17 we see that Time of Trial beginning, for the Wrath of God begins. The 7 year tribulation starts then we see Christ return with His bride in Revelation 19 and they live and reign with Him 1000 years. Then Revelation 20 says after the 1000 years the rest of day are resurrected face the Great White Throne Judgment.

    Scripture is clear.

    Romans 14:9-11,
    9 "For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.
    10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
    11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God."

    Notice we will stand before the BEMA that is Judgment seat of Christ.

    What happens to believers there?

    1 Corinthians 3:11-16,
    11 "For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
    12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
    13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
    14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
    15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
    16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?"

    We receive rewards at the BEMA Seat.

    What happens ate the Great White Throne?

    Revelation 20:11-15,

    11 "And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
    12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
    13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
    14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
    15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."

    The ones who come before the Great White Throne everyone who are by the way called the dead, are cast into the Lake Of Fire.

    The judgment we see in Revelation 20 is only for the dead that is the unbeliever, those who have rejected Christ.

    OR in your belief of a general Resurrection where do you see the BEMA Seat Judgment taking place in Revelation?
     
  16. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    Jesus Christ, Crucified at the Instigation of Jews DURING Daniel's 70th Week!

    Daniel 9:24-27
    24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
    25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
    26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
    27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.


    Regarding the 70 weeks of Daniel's prophecy, the 70 weeks is universally considered to be 70 weeks of years or 490 years.

    In Verse 25 we read that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks:

    Until Messiah the Prince what: The only logical explanation is until the Messiah begins HIS ministry. That is after 483 years Jesus Christ, Messiah the Prince, will begin HIS ministry which lasted about 3.5 years.

    Now consider Verse 26: And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: We see that that sometime AFTER 69 weeks Jesus Christ will be "cut off" murdered but not for Himself. It is obvious that DURING the 70th week Jesus Christ was crucified by Rome at the instigation of the Jews.

    Now consider Verse 27: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease. The ministry of Jesus Christ was about 3.5 years meaning HE was crucified in the middle of the 70th week. And what did that death of Jesus Christ accomplish: the Salvation of all who believed in HIM {John 3:16}. That meant that the endless blood sacrifices of the Jews in the Temple were useless. Jesus Christ made the final atonement for our sins fulfilling that promise made initially in the Garden of Eden {Genesis 3:15}

    The continuation of the bloody offerings by the Jews was, therefore, an abomination before GOD and HE brought those sacrifices to an end in 70AD using the armies of Rome to do so.

    Scripture clearly shows for all who do not filter Scripture through the blinders of dispensational error that the 70th week was the week in which Jesus Christ was crucified and was finished almost 2000 years ago.

    If there was any truth in the doctrine of dispensationalism they would not have to rely on a spurious interpretation of Daniel's prophecy to support that doctrine.
     
  17. beameup

    beameup Member

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    "Messiah the Prince" refers to the Triumphal Entry. He was fulfilling prophecy, riding on a young donkey, and was received by the people, and should have been received by the religious leaders.
    As far as the rebuilding of the Temple which included the rebuilding of the gates and wall, that is covered in Nehemiah, and a date can be established.
    So, decoding Daniel's prophecy, there was no excuse for the religious leaders NOT to know the exact date that the Messiah would present himself.
    Now, we have one "week" of years yet left... that is unless total fulfillment by 37-40AD can be shown from scripture.
     
    #77 beameup, May 30, 2015
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  18. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    And your point is?????????
     
  19. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    ...The prince that shall come...he shall confirm a covenant with many (the Jews) for one week...
    Jesus never did that.
    But the coming Antichrist will. How does your interpretation fit with that.
    Christ is not "the prince that shall come," which is the antecedent of the "he" in verse 27. The people of that prince are Romans. Thus "this foreigner," not Christ, who is coming, will make a covenant or promise with the Jews for 7 years and then break it in the middle of that 7 year period. That hasn't happened yet.
     
  20. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    Do you have any Scripture to support the above?

    I saw nothing in the passage from Daniel about the coming anti-Christ. The Apostle John in his epistles tells us there are many anti-Christs and there are. Communism is, many in the leftist democrat party are anti-Christs, the world is full of anti-Christs and Islam is perhaps the worst one today. There are also anti-Christs in some of the so-called churches of today.

    I showed that Jesus Christ was crucified DURING the 70th week. HIS death made the continuation of bloody sacrifices in the Temple absolutely worthless, an abomination before GOD. Scripture tells us: The sacrifice of the wicked is abomination: how much more, when he bringeth it with a wicked mind? {Proverbs 21:27} Certainly no one is more wicked than the priests who conspired with hated Rome to crucify Jesus Christ.

    In 70AD GOD brought HIS judgment on Israel for their part in the death of Jesus Christ using the hated Romans. GOD also put an end to the abomination of continued blood offerings in the Temple by having the Roman soldiers destroy the Temple. GOD's use of Rome in HIS judgment of Israel is consistent with HIS use of Assyria and Babylon in the past!
     
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