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Featured The natural man receives not the things of God

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by Iconoclast, Jul 2, 2019.

  1. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Indeed Pastor Bob,
    As a natural man being drawn by God, the Eunuch could not understand at all.
    God seeking and searching for all his sheep sends Philip to explain it as the Spirit quickened the Eunuch that day.
    How have you been?
     
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  2. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Yes it is saved or lost, under dominon of the flesh.
    There are only two men spoken of.
     
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  3. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    That is okay. You do not have to be.
    But on Baptistboard you can claim you are even if you never have presented the teaching at anytime.:Cautious:Roflmao:Laugh
     
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  4. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    We agree on that point.
    But it is not his understanding of that text.
     
    #44 37818, Jul 3, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2019
  5. loDebar

    loDebar Well-Known Member

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    Do
    Do you class the eunuch as a natural man?
     
  6. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    I honestly think the common Calvinist view is not correct. If I understood it to be correct, I would have been a Calvinist in my understanding a long time ago.
     
  7. loDebar

    loDebar Well-Known Member

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    From the parable of the sower, the lost seek or are guided by the affairs of the world so even though they could accept the Gospel they choose not to because of the thorns , non seem to be a natural man,

    We seem to equate natural and fleshly as lost, but it is better to understand as basic or animal not just spiritually lost,
    insert this understanding in the verses and see if it fits
     
  8. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I disagree. I think that it is important that we present our positions on any forum when it comes to this type of issue because there is a varying idea of what the term means (for example, I do not believe that "Calvinism" can mean anything less than an affirmation of the five "points"....anything less is not "Calvinism"). I'd actually argue that double predestination is a necessary conclusion of Calvinism based at least on divine omniscience (I'd argue that "Calvinists" like @Iconoclast and @SovereignGrace are not true to the conclusions of their theology and hold a quasi-Calvinistic position).

    That is why I explained my views on this forum (if you recall, I argued the five points and a double predestination which TCassidy considered a hyper viewpoint).

    This is why others have explained their view points as well.

    But I do reject the aspects of Calvinism that are anti-Baptistic (Covenant Theology - depending on degree, infant Baptism, elder leadership, etc).

    So I think it only fair that we present what we believe rather than just labels for our belief.

    That way only a fool would question another's actual view. :Cautious
     
  9. Pastor_Bob

    Pastor_Bob Well-Known Member

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    We are in agreement here. I further believe that every man is afforded this same opportunity.

    I have been well, thank you. The Lord has opened the door for me to preach out quite a bit this summer and present our college ministry. I have been in Texas, Indiana, Kentucky, Tennessee, and Georgia so far this summer. I'll be in Illinois later this month.
     
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  10. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    The issue is not whether the natural man cannot or "can never" understand "the things of the Spirit," the issue is whether "the things of the Spirit" refers to "spiritual milk" and "spiritual solid food."

    No need to quibble over a none issue. The things does not equal "all the things" in the context of the passage because 1 Corinthians 3:1 indicates men of flesh can understand "spiritual milk."
     
    #50 Van, Jul 3, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2019
  11. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    Only because you can't see it.
    MB
     
  12. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    If time permits, start a thread on 4 or 5 of your best objections to the teaching and let's see where you stand, and if we can help clarify a bit.:Thumbsup
     
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  13. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    I am pretty sure Kyred can see it just fine and will have no trouble explaining it to you as well.
     
  14. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Someone was reading a thread that dealt with this 6 years ago;
    Here it is;
    The Offer of the Gospel
     
  15. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    “And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.” [2 Corinthians 4:3-4] says that the lost do not “choose” to not accept the gospel, but are “blinded” by the god of this world to it.
     
  16. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

    11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

    12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

    13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

    14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

    Natural men are unsaved, not having the Spirit.;
    rom8
    5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh;
    but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

    6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

    7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

    8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

    9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.


    Amplified - Yet to us God has unveiled and revealed them by and through His Spirit, for the [Holy] Spirit searches diligently, exploring and examining everything, even sounding the profound and bottomless things of God [the divine counsels and things hidden and beyond man’s scrutiny].

    Barclay - But God revealed it through his Spirit, for the Spirit explores all things, even the deep things of God.

    NLT - But we know these things because God has revealed them to us by his Spirit, and his Spirit searches out everything and shows us even God's deep secrets.

    Wuest Expanded Paraphrase - for to us God the Father revealed them through the intermediate agency of His Spirit. For the Spirit is constantly exploring all things, even the deep things of God.

     
  17. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    preceptaustin

    So that (in order that) (hina) is a term of purpose (see discussion of terms of purpose or result ), which in context is expressing the purpose of the gift of the Spirit - "we may know." Know the Spirit, know spiritual truth. No spirit, no spiritual knowledge! It is that simple.

    A T Robertson on to know the things freely given - (Know is) Second perfect subjunctive (eido) with hina to express purpose. Here is a distinct claim of the Holy Spirit for understanding (Illumination) of the revelation received. It is not a senseless rhapsody or secret mystery, but God expects us to understand “the things that are freely given." First aorist passive neuter plural articular participle of charizomai = to bestow. God gave the revelation through the Holy Spirit and He gives us the illumination of the Holy Spirit to understand the mind of the Spirit. The tragic failures of men to understand clearly God‘s revealed will (in His Word) is but a commentary on the weakness and limitation of the human intellect even when enlightened by the Holy Spirit (Ed: Or in a believer who reads the Word like any other boo, relying on his intellectual prowess and failing to rely on the illumination that comes ONLY from the Spirit!)


    Amplified - And we are setting these truths forth in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the [Holy] Spirit, combining and interpreting spiritual truths with spiritual language [to those who possess the Holy Spirit].

    Barclay - The things we speak we do not speak in words taught by human wisdom, but in words taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual things to spiritual people.

    CSB We also speak these things, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, explaining spiritual things to spiritual people.

    ESV And we impart this in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who are spiritual.

    NET - And we speak about these things, not with words taught us by human wisdom, but with those taught by the Spirit, explaining spiritual things to spiritual people. [Or "combining spiritual things with spiritual words" (i.e., words the Spirit gives, as just described).]

    NLT - When we tell you this, we do not use words of human wisdom. We speak words given to us by the Spirit, using the Spirit's words to explain spiritual truths.

    Wuest Expanded Paraphrase - which things also we put into words, not in words taught by human philosophy but in words taught by the Spirit, fitly joining together Spirit-revealed truths with Spirit-taught
     
  18. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Now we get to verse14:

    Amplified - But the natural, nonspiritual man does not accept or welcome or admit into his heart the gifts and teachings and revelations of the Spirit of God, for they are folly (meaningless nonsense) to him; and he is incapable of knowing them [of progressively recognizing, understanding, and becoming better acquainted with them] because they are spiritually discerned and estimated and appreciated.

    Barclay - A man who has no life but physical life cannot understand the things of the Spirit of God. To him they are foolishness and he cannot understand them, because it takes the Spirit to discern them.

    NLT - But people who aren't Christians can't understand these truths from God's Spirit. It all sounds foolish to them because only those who have the Spirit can understand what the Spirit means.

    Wuest Expanded Paraphrase - But the unregenerate man of the highest intellectual attainments does not grant access to the things of the Spirit of God, for to him they are folly, and he is not able to come to know them because they are investigated in a spiritual realm.


    A natural man - This person is lost, unsaved, unregenerate, devoid of the Spirit of God, one who has only physical life. In this passage Paul states that the only way a natural man can accept and understand the supernatural Word is via a supernatural Source, the Spirit of God.

    Adrian Rogers describes the natural man this way - Now, if you're a natural man and never have been born again—and a natural man is a man who's only had one birth. He was born into the natural world and he is bound by the material world. He's only had one birth and he can never ever know the things of the spirit of God until he has a second birth.

    NET Note on natural man (psuchikos… anthropos) - “an unspiritual person, one who merely functions bodily, without being touched by the Spirit of God.”



    Natural (5591)(psuchikos from psuche = soul) is literally "soulish" with affinity to natural sinful propensities, the person in whom the sarx, the flesh, is more the ruling principle. Psuche is the nonphysical element which makes one alive, conscious of the environment, and is to be distinguished from pneuma or spirit, which is a distinctive of man as the element of communication with God.


    Jude describe men who had crept into the assembly seeking to turn the grace of God into licentiousness (Jude 1:4-note) as "the ones who cause divisions, worldly-minded (psuchikos), devoid of the Spirit." (Jude 1:19-note) And so the natural man does not have the Holy Spirit. Paul amplifies this in Romans writing "you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him." (Ro 8:9-note) And so the natural man does not belong to God, is not part of God's family, which explains why he cannot understand the "family language" so to speak. In 1Cor 2:12 Paul describes himself as a spiritual man who is the antithesis of the natural man, for the spiritual man has not received "the spirit of the world, but the Spirit Who is from God." In that same passage Paul presented another distinction between the spiritual and natural man, namely that the spiritual man (Paul speaking of himself) can "know the things freely given" by God, but the natural man cannot know (or understand) them (1Cor 2:14).
     
  19. InTheLight

    InTheLight Well-Known Member
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    Who was that someone reading that 6 year old thread? It wasn't me.

    I see that I made three posts to that thread, but I assure you I don't remember a thing about it.
     
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  20. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Now it gets down to a slam dunk on these truths;
    Wuest - The word “natural” is the translation of a Greek word which Paul uses to describe to the Corinthian Greeks the unregenerate man at his best, the man whom Greek philosophy commended, the man actuated by the higher thoughts and aims of the natural life. The word used here is not the Greek word which speaks of the sensual man. It is the word coined by Aristotle to distinguish the pleasures of the soul, such as ambition and the desire for knowledge, from those of the body. The natural man here spoken of is the educated man at the height of his intellectual powers, but devoid of the Spirit of God. The word translated “receiveth” does not imply an active appropriation, but a certain attitude of passive acceptance when favorable, and of rejection if unfavorable. This man, whose powers of apprehension are limited to the exercise of his reason, does not admit these spiritual things into his heart. The reason for this rejection is that they are foolishness to him. (Ibid)

    Friberg summary of psuchikos = of life in the natural world and what pertains to it; (1) as governed by sensual appetites and lived apart from the Spirit of God natural, unspiritual, worldly (1Cor 2.14; Jude 1:19); (2) as being a characteristic of the earthly body physical, natural (1Cor 15.44); neuter as a substantive - what is physical (1Cor 15.46). Jude 1:19 calls the teachers of error worldly (lit. ‘psychic’) people, who do not have the Spirit. (Analytical Lexicon)

    Barclay - Even then it is not every man who can understand these things. Paul speaks about interpreting spiritual things to spiritual people. He distinguishes two kinds of men. (a) There are those who are pneumatikos. Pneumais the word for Spirit; and the man who is pneumatikos is the man who is sensitive to the Spirit and whose life is guided by the Spirit. (b) There is the man who is psuchikos. Psuche in Greek is often translated soul; but that is not its real meaning. It is the principle of physical life. Everything which is alive has psuche; a dog, a cat, any animal has psuche, but it has not got pneuma. Psuche is that physical life which a man shares with every living thing; but pneuma is that which makes a man different from the rest of creation and kin to God. So in 1Cor 2:14Paul speaks of the man who is psuchikos. He is the man who lives as if there was nothing beyond physical life and there were no needs other than material needs, whose values are all physical and material. A man like that cannot understand spiritual things. (His interests and aims do not go beyond physical life). (1 Corinthians - William Barclay's Daily Study Bible)

    As Dr DeHaan says "Regeneration… is a supernatural act of God whereby a spiritual creation takes place, and we behold things which are utterly unknown and must remain completely unknown even to the most cultured, sophisticated, educated of those of Adam’s race who have never experienced the new birth. And now we come to see the striking contrast in our Scripture. The natural man, the unregenerated man, sees none of these glories of this Book and of salvation and of God’s plan of redemption. He lives in an entirely different world, the world of sense and of sight, touch and sound. The tangible world is the habitat of the natural man in his unregenerate state, and he is, therefore, totally ignorant of the spiritual realm which transcends all of these things." (1 Corinthians Commentary)


    Notice, no nonsense about the milk of the word here, nope.
     
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