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Featured The natural man receives not the things of God

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by Iconoclast, Jul 2, 2019.

  1. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    In 1 cor 2:14 The Holy Spirit explains clearly that the natural man cannot welcome or receive the things of the SPIRIT of God.
    The reason the Holy Spirit had the Apostle Paul write that is natural men do not have the Holy Spirit so there is no way they can rightly understand the things of the SPIRIT of God.
    The reason we're given the SPIRIT of God is that we can welcome or receive the truth of God's word.
    In Romans 8:7 we are told why this is so.
    The carnal mind...is enmity against God
    It is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
    Is this obvious to everyone?
    Are there any who would suggest the natural man has full ability, or the carnal mind is subject to God ?
     
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  2. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    We will never be able to agree on this because we do not agree on the context of that passage. It is not a comparison between the lost and saved, regenerate, and unregenerate, the natural man and the spiritual man.

    It is a comparison of choosing worldly wisdom and godly wisdom. It inserts no inability but the choice of men.
     
  3. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    Absolutely no truth in this post.
     
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  4. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    You just flat don't know what you're talking about, AND, your reading comprehension skills are very poor.

    12 But we received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is from God; that we might know the things that were freely given to us of God.
    13 Which things also we speak, not in words which man`s wisdom teacheth, but which the Spirit teacheth; combining spiritual things with spiritual words.
    14 Now the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him; and he cannot know them, because they are spiritually judged.
    15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, and he himself is judged of no man. 1 Cor 2
     
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  5. InTheLight

    InTheLight Well-Known Member
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    Yes, the natural man cannot understand the "deep things" of the Spirit (1 Cor 2;10), nor can young Christians receive the "wisdom" of the Spirit (1 Cor 2:6) nor the "hidden wisdom" of the Spirit (1 Cor 2:7). These are the things the natural man cannot receive, and what this passage is about. Weightier matters of the Spirit, not the simple gospel message.

    The natural man can understand the gospel just fine, because it is the power of God unto salvation, to everyone who believes (Rom. 1:16)
     
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  6. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    In verse 10...it says All Things,even the deep things of God....
    In verse 9 isa64 is quoted and we are told these things have been prepared for those who Love God. Natural men do not love God from what I can see
     
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  7. InTheLight

    InTheLight Well-Known Member
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    Verse 10 says the "Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God." Says nothing about the natural man receiving or not receiving anything.

    Precisely. Natural man is not the seeker of the deep things of the Spirit and understanding the wisdom of the Spirit. Christians that love God, seek the deep things of God; the natural man does not and cannot. But they can understand the gospel.
     
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  8. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Here is a few posts from precept austin;
    1 Corinthians 2:10 For to us God revealed them through the Spirit; for the Spirit searches all things, even the depths of God: hemin de apekalupsen (AAI) o theos dia tou pneumatos; to gar pneuma panta erauna, (PAI) kai ta bathe tou theou:

    Amplified - Yet to us God has unveiled and revealed them by and through His Spirit, for the [Holy] Spirit searches diligently, exploring and examining everything, even sounding the profound and bottomless things of God [the divine counsels and things hidden and beyond man’s scrutiny].

    Barclay - But God revealed it through his Spirit, for the Spirit explores all things, even the deep things of God.

    NLT - But we know these things because God has revealed them to us by his Spirit, and his Spirit searches out everything and shows us even God's deep secrets.

    Wuest Expanded Paraphrase - for to us God the Father revealed them through the intermediate agency of His Spirit. For the Spirit is constantly exploring all things, even the deep things of God.
     
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  9. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    pt2;

    SPECIAL REVELATION
    FROM THE SPIRIT

    In 1Cor 2:10-16 Paul gives special attention to the work of the Holy Spirit in revealing (and illumining) the wisdom of God (1Cor 1:21, 24, 30, 2:6-8 especially wisdom centered on Christ and "Christ crucified" 1Cor 1:23, 2:2). In the preceding passage 1Cor 2:9 Paul quoted from Isaiah 64:4 "For from days of old they have not heard or perceived by ear, Nor has the eye seen a God besides You, Who acts in behalf of the one who waits for Him." Paul's point in using this quotation is to support his declaration in 1Cor 2:8 that the "rulers of this age" (= "natural" men as Paul explains in 1Cor 2:14) had no (spiritual) understanding of God's glorious work of redemption accomplished when the "Lord of glory" was crucified like a common criminal (cp Lk 23:34 where Jesus declared "they do not know what they are doing"). The rulers entirely missed the spiritual significance of Christ's death on the Cross (cp 1Cor 1:18), as would all men (including Paul) had not the Spirit opened the eyes of our heart to the truth! We are all debtors to mercy alone (Play this great old hymn - A Debtor to Mercy)

    Gordon Fee - If the main point of the citation in 1Cor 2:9 was to support the argument of 1Cor 2:6-8, the final line of the citation, “what God has prepared for those who love him,” prepares the way for the main concern of the entire passage, namely that God’s wisdom can be known only by God’s people because they alone have the Spirit. (The First Epistle to the Corinthians, NICNT)

    Adam Clarke agrees writing that the words of 1Cor 2:9 "have been applied to the state of glory in a future world; but certainly they belong to the present state, and express merely the wondrous light, life, and liberty which the Gospel communicates to them that believe in the Lord Jesus Christ in that way which the Gospel itself requires.”

    David Guzik commenting on 1Cor 2:9 adds that "Most people wrongly take the things which God has prepared for those who love Him to mean the things which are waiting for us in heaven (Ed confession - I for one took it this way because I had memorized it without ever stopping to closely examine the context! The lesson is be very careful to examine the context when memorizing Scripture! See Memorizing His Word or Memory Verses by Topic). While it is true that we cannot comprehend the greatness of heaven, that isn’t what Paul means here, because 1Cor 2:10 tells us God has revealed them to us through His Spirit. This glorious thing is has been revealed by the gospel… Paul is communicating much the same message as Ephesians 3:1-7, where he writes about the mystery of the church, and how the church in other ages was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to His holy apostles and prophets. (Ephesians 3:5) Before the life and ministry of Jesus, God’s people had a vague understanding of the glory of His work and what it would do for His people. But they really didn’t - they couldn’t - fully understand it ahead of time." (Ref)

    Expositor's Greek - The true reading, gar (for) (cf. 1 Corinthians 1:26), links this verse to the foregoing by way of illustration: “For to us (being of those that love Him) God revealed (them), through the Spirit”: cf. 1 Corinthians 1:18, 1 Corinthians 8:3, 1 Corinthians 13:2, 1 John 4:7;

    For (gar) - This is a term of explanation, which begs the question "What is Paul explaining?" (Note some manuscripts have the Greek conjunction "de" meaning "but" instead of "gar" translated "for" - Findlay comments "De is superficially easier; gar intrinsically better”) Paul is explaining how he (and by application all God's saints, all of whom are indwelt by the "Revealer," the "Teacher," the Spirit) could receive and understand God's "deep secrets" ("things which eye has not seen and ear has not heard" in 1Cor 2:9) and it is only by God's Spirit, Who Alone can reveal God's words.

    A T Robertson adds that the for "explains why this is no longer hidden, “for God revealed to us” the wonders of grace pictured in 1Corinthians 2:9. We do not have to wait for heaven to see them. Hence we can utter those things hidden from the eye, the ear, the heart of man."
     
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  10. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    pt3;
    Kenneth Wuest explains that in 1Cor 2:10-16 "Paul proceeds to describe the three successive steps in the transmission of truth from the heart of God to the heart of man. These are, revelation, the act of God the Holy Spirit imparting to the Bible writers, truth incapable of being discovered by man’s unaided reason (1Cor 2:10–12): inspiration, the act of God the Holy Spirit enabling the Bible writers to write down in God-chosen words, infallibly, the truth revealed (1Cor 2:13): and illumination, the act of God the Holy Spirit enabling believers to understand the truth given by revelation and written down by inspiration (1Cor 2:14–16). (Untranslatable Riches from the Greek New Testament)

    Vance Havner - These things God has prepared (1Cor 2:9) refer not only to joys awaiting us in heaven but blessings available NOW. We can have a foretaste of glory and of the powers of the age to come. We can sample the fruit of the land before we reach the heavenly fields or walk the golden streets. If such advance blessings are to be had we ought to lay hold upon them now! The promises of God are not mere mottoes to hang on the wall, but checks to be cashed—and if we ever needed them we do now! If there is a bank account in our name we ought to use our checkbook of faith and prayer. While we lay up treasure in heaven we may also draw funds to our credit and heavenly cash for our earthly needs today. (Though I Walk Through the Valley)

    Related Resource:

    David Garland notes that "Paul shifts his focus to the means by which God reveals heavenly truth that is naturally unknowable. How can something that has no place in the human heart be made known? How do humans cross the divide between the world and God? These can happen only through God’s Spirit, Who searches all things, even the depths of God. Human creatures do not have access to these things and do not even have the grammar or vocabulary for them until it is graciously bestowed by God’s Spirit." (1 Corinthians - Baker Exegetical Commentary on the New Testament)

    To us (hemin) - This pronoun is first in the Greek sentence for emphasis. Paul's point is that the Revelation was not given to intelligent, wise of this world but was given to Paul (and the other writers of the NT) by the Spirit. It is notable that Paul switches his pronouns from we and us back to you in 1Cor 3:1.

    MacDonald on to us - In other words, these truths foretold in the OT were made known to the apostles of the NT era. The us refers to the writers of the NT. It was by the Spirit of God that the apostles and prophets were enlightened (Believer’s Bible Commentary)

    Morris adds "That it is revealed takes away all suggestion of superiority. There can be no feeling of pride when it is clear that all is of God. Believers can claim no special skill or insight, only that God has revealed truth to them." (1 Corinthians: Tyndale New Testament Commentaries)

    God revealed them - What is "them?" Them refers to the spiritual wisdom of God (Wuest adds "God the Father") which the unregenerate rulers of this world did not understand because they were natural men (1Cor 2:14).

    Calvin - Having shut up all mankind in (spiritual) blindness, and having taken away from the human intellect the power of attaining to a knowledge of God by its own resources (Ed: Referring to special revelation, not natural revelation, to which all men have access - Ro 1:18-21 - so that all men are without excuse!), he now shows in what way believers are exempted from this blindness, — by the Lord’s honoring them with a special illumination of the Spirit.

    John MacArthur emphasizes that "The Holy Spirit is the divine Author of Scripture. He used many human agents, but the message is entirely His. The revelation is God’s pure Word." (New Testament Commentary)

    David gives us an OT parallel in Psalm 25:14 writing that "The secret (Hebrew = sod = confidential talk, secret counsel, speaks of intimacy and fellowship) of the LORD is for those who fear Him, and He will make them know (Lxx = deloo = make clear, evident, or plain by words) His covenant." This is what Jehovah did with the writers of the New Testament.

    C H Spurgeon gives a great illustration of our desperate, constant need of the Holy Spirit to open our natural eyes to supernatural truth...

    The Spirit guiding into all truth - Truth may be compared to some cave or grotto, with wondrous stalactites hanging from the roof, and others starting from the floor; a cavern glittering with spar and abounding in marvels. Before entering the cavern you inquire for a guide, who comes with his lighted flambeau. He conducts you down to a considerable depth, and you find yourself in the midst of the cave. He leads you through different chambers. Here he points you to a little stream rushing from amid the rocks, and indicates its rise and progress; there he points to some peculiar rock and tells you its name, then takes you into a large natural hall, tells you how many persons once feasted in it, and so on. Truth is a grand series of caverns, it is our glory to have so great and wise a Conductor as the Holy Spirit. Imagine that we are coming to the darkness of it. He is a light shining in the midst of us to guide us. And by the light He shows us wondrous things. He teaches us by suggestion, direction, and illumination.
     
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  11. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    InTheLight,

    Where do you see this idea of the natural man can, in the text.???I listed several teachers, and do not see them supporting your idea from the text.
    The Spirit searches all things....even and including deep things. The text does not offer the natural man being able to welcome truth.
     
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  12. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    :rolleyes:
     
  13. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    yes my friend JonC...they all used scriptures correctly...not there own thoughts like you suggest, but scriptures..Thanks for looking out for everyone and protecting them from these respected scholars
     
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  14. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    There?

    The irony is your post (the second one I quoted) was part of your anti-Calvin tirade. I just thought it fitting as my "unrespected" sources have been Calvin, John Piper, Leon Morris, Mark Dever and of course Spurgeon. You just find it different when I say it.

    I was pointing out the hypocrisy in your post.
     
  15. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Nice try at twisting it, but it is not going to fly. It was apples to oranges as they say. No one is buying what your selling.

    Your foul post is once again off topic. I am not the subject of this post am I?
    Hypocrisy might be like a poster making false accusations, that false accusations were made.
     
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  16. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I do not mean to be harsh but you have hijacked my belief system for your personal jihad (which has absolutely nothing to do with Christ). I believe there are more Calvinists here that can love the brethern than there are who seek contention. I believe you are in a Calvinistic minority (I pray so, anyway).

    Do you remember how you challenged my view (that I was not really a 'Calvinist') recently? You challenged it by asking about how many non-Calvinists I have rejected.

    "The best lack all conviction, while the worst
    are full of passionate intensity."

    The issue is that this "militent" form of Calvinism gives the rest of us a bad name. I cannot blame anyone from rejecting Calvinism until we can effectively pull in the worst of us.

    Your doctrine is worthless if it does not lead you to be more Christ-like. Stop being the ANTIFA of Calvinism.
     
  17. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    JonC,

    .

    You do not believe what I or other mainstream Calvinists believe. You did mean to be harsh but it has failed once again.. I have not hijacked anything of yours as no other cal believes you are in any sense "with us" you know, those you refer to as a camp?
    You are stalking the threads to stir up trouble and try and attack everything, twisting words as you go along.Everyone sees this. . I have repeatedly asked you to stop but you are obsessed.
    I believe all the real Calvinists here do that..Not perfectly but the attempt is there.


    [QUOTE]than there are who seek contention[/QUOTE].

    You are the only one seeking contention. I have asked you 7 or 8 times to go your own way, but you follow my posts trying to undermine them. I do not see that as being truthful ,kind, or necessary. If you want the contention to cease, stop doing your stalking..
    I and others can get along quite well without your stirring up strife, Stop it JonC
    :Cautious

    I do not care for your evil thoughts toward me, or any of the Calvinist others

    [QUOTE]Do you remember how you challenged my view (that I was not really a 'Calvinist') recently?[/QUOTE]
    Yes, because it is quite amusing. you like every non cal posted, you hit like or winner, You have not really presented much in the way of Calvinist teaching . In fact, when Biblicist and Martin challenged you, you overheated and spoke against all of the cals. Would you be so kind as to restore that post, publically, as Martin is no longer here to as you suggested ...ask to have it removed? Go ahead and post it here on this thread... I will wait for it

    Rejected, no, that is a twist as you are used to doing

    here is a perfect example of what i am talking about JonC; here is what i actually said;
    When you have sent your pm's there is no reply button. So your posts accusing me of things that are not so cannot get a reply.
    I am speaking to you as a poster, not as a moderator.
    In fact in.light of your activities it is better to speak out in the open as I have no secrets here.
    While anyone can post anywhere on the forum,I believe it is in everyone's best interest if you ignore my posts and me personally.
    You have a habit of going off topic and making me the topic of several threads.
    That you are listed as a moderator complicates things.
    As A poster I can deal with anything you offer.
    Salty, Rsr, and Squire do not do this to me or anyone else.
    They like, or dislike or ignore my posts let anyone else is free to do.
    I do not think as a poster you understand my posts correctly as you have a jaundiced eye when you "follow" my posts.
    I have asked you several times to not do this but you cannot help yourself.
    As a poster you have recently claimed to be a "Calvinist".
    Well anyone can Claim to be anything I suppose these days.
    I do not know of any Calvinist on this board who would identify you with such a label:Cautious
    In fact I doubt anyone on here among the non cals would make such an identification.
    I asked you one time to show 3 or 4 of you strongest teachings and defenses of the position as I cannot recall any.
    Is there any non cal who recalls JonC opposing what they have posted? Maybe it slipped by un noticed.
    To see you are right there with Dr. White is more than a stretch as a poster..


    I see no other Calvinist calling you one of "us". I see no Calvinist at any time agreeing with most any of your posts, in fact, it looks like close to a shutout.You can claim you are any label you want, but i am not seeing it.
    List all the Calvinists past or present,AND LETS ASK THEM ???
    iF THEY ALL SAY YOU ARE INDEED A CALVINST I WILL back off on this. What do you say, or have a poll....


    I believe it is you alone that is the problem here my good friend. Ask others, list them and I can still reach those who left here if you want there feedback. Are you so obsessed with yourself that you have to keep stalking the posts?

    While I am still a work in progress my doctrine and practice are just fine.Thanks for your genuine concern...you are so highly exalted it is wonderful that you can offer poor souls like myself your sincere and sage advice.
     
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  18. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    Apparently you aren't calvie enough. That is like the third time I have seen such a statement. Then there is the telling you what you believe. Hard to take seriously.
     
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  19. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Yep. It is odd, but that is exactly what hapoens here. A few decide they can dictate what other people "really" believe. It is rarely about doctrine, most often about cultish allegiance. It is not Christian at all.

    Calvinism is how I understand God's planning and working of salvation. For me, it is not the basis of my faith. My faith is founded on Christ, not my soteriological understanding. I realize my understanding is finite and incapable of encompassing the mind of God. This separates me from some of the Reformed folks on this board. For some their understanding is their gospel. And we all can see what fruit is produced.
     
  20. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    You have no right to tell me what I believe or don't believe. Probably the best source for what I believe in terms of Calvinism is John Piper and D.A. Carson. In regards to predestination and free-will, I do lean towards Edwards. I also greatly appreciate Spurgeon. They are my biggest influences.

    Where we disagreed was in regards to penal substitution as encompassing the entirety of Christ's work, God separating from Jesus on the Cross, and Covenant theology.

    Most importantly, I objected to your treatment of Christians who were purchased with the blood of Christ. I believe that you persecute Christ in your persecution of other believers.

    Your faith does not work, regardless of doctrine, if it does not work. It is not knowing about Christ but knowing Christ. And that is demonstrated by our fruit.
     
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