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The Northern\American Baptist Conventions

Squire Robertsson

Administrator
Administrator

Joseph M. Smith

New Member
The material linked is more focused on the divisions within various brands of conservative Baptists than it is on the ABC-USA. Is there an intent in the OP to get us to discussing American Baptist history and/or current issues?
 

John of Japan

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Joseph, the story of the ABC-USA cannot be understood properly without understanding the CBC, which came out of it, and likewise Northern Fundamentalism cannot be understood without knowing these roots.

As a BWM missionary, I'll be interested in how this thread goes. In my experience, Squire knows much more than anyone on the BB about this piece of history, including yours truly, who, with Squire, is honored to have known some of the principle Fundamentalists who came out of the ABC-USA and then the CBC. I'm all ears, Professor Squire!
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Squire Robertsson

Administrator
Administrator
To help connect the dots, I recommend</font>
  • Ernest Pickering's Biblical Separation available at the Baptist World Mission Bookstore</font>
  • Notes on the Principles and Practices of Baptist Churches by Francis Wayland (1796-1865) available through the University of Michigan</font>
  • New Directory of Baptist Churches by Edward Hiscox (1814-1901)</font>
Dr. Wayland's book lays out the main differences between Baptist churches in the north and in the South. He was a participant in the Triennial Baptist Convention on Missions. Hiscox came a generation after Wayland. Between the two a person can see a continuity of Northern Baptist thought. For a good view of Hiscox, I recommend an older unrevised edition. Not that I think all here will agree with these brethren. But, they are a good start if a person knows as much about Northern Baptists as I do about Southern ones.
 

John of Japan

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
So, Squire, what are the main characteristics of Baptist churches in the North, according to Wayland?
 

rsr

<b> 7,000 posts club</b>
Moderator
Originally posted by John of Japan:
So, Squire, what are the main characteristics of Baptist churches in the North, according to Wayland?
Not to steal the Squire's thunder, but Wayland was very protective of local church autonomy and considered that joint efforts should be focused upon missions, not upon united action on other fronts. He considered it silly for a convention to take positions that would represent all Baptists on questions that did not touch upon the job at hand and feared that conventionalism would impinge upon the authority of local churches.

It is as truly a violation of the independence of the churches, and the right of private judgment, when several hundred brethren meet in some public convention, and manufacture public opinion, and adopt courses which their brethren are called upon to follow, on pain of the displeasure of the majority, as when they establish a formal representation, to whose decisions all the constituency must submit.

These have always been favorite ideas with our Baptist churches. In this we differ essentially from our Presbyterian brethren. With them, every church is represented formally, and legally, in its Presbytery, by which its acts may be reviewed and reversed. The Presbytery is, in like manner, represented in the Synod, and also in the court of final ecclesiastical appeal, the General Assembly. This form of church government, as it is called, appears well enough, if we look upon a church of Christ as a civil organization. We, however, take very different views of the theory of the church of Christ, and in practice, we have never seen any thing in the representative form to recommend it. If any of our Christian brethren like it, we are glad to have them adopt it. We, however, have ever looked with great disfavor upon any practice which, in the remotest degree, violates the great principle of the independence of the churches.

Jesus Christ left his church without any general organization. Throughout the New Testament we can discover not a trace of organization beyond the establishment of individual churches. Their bond of union was sympathy with him through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in each individual. Is it not probable that as he left it, so he intended that it should continue to the end of time? The object of the church of Christ on earth is very simple: it is the conversion of souls. This object, it seems to me, can be accomplished without the use of the complicated, cumbrous, and frequently soul-destroying machinery, with which his disciples have for so many ages been burdened.

Under the old dispensation there was an established and formal organization, and every thing respecting it was definitely prescribed, even to the minutest particular. As, in the New Testament, no trace of this kind can be discovered, is it not reasonable to suppose that nothing of this kind was intended, but that the Master chose that it should remain just as he left it? Moses was commanded, saying, " See that thou make all things according to the pattern showed thee in the mount." As Jesus Christ has showed us no "pattern," is it desirable for us to make one for ourselves?

... Though the Triennial Convention was thus restricted to its appropriate object, the work of Foreign Missions, its representative character remained. It was, by the community at large, considered to be the grand meeting of the Baptist denomination in the United States, a sort of General Assembly, to which all our affairs were brought for decision. Hence, if for any cause it was deemed desirable to commit the whole Baptist membership to any course of action, this was considered the proper place in which to make the attempt. I well remember that on one occasion, a series of resolutions was introduced, of which the only object was to express our approbation of General Jackson's measures for the removal of the Cherokees. Hence, though missions were the ostensible object for which we assembled, missions were frequently the last thing thought of. Propositions for amendments to the Constitution, of course, occupied a considerable part of the session. Then the attempts of brethren from the East or West, the North or the South, to procure an expression of the denomination in favor of this matter or that, totally unconnected with missions, must be disposed of. When any of these exciting questions were discussed, the house would be filled to overflowing; but when nothing but missions was under consideration there was room enough, and to spare. A large part of the time of the meeting was thus wasted in angry altercation. Hence this attempt at representation, intended to unite us all as one denomination, proved the source of manifold alienation, and, I fear, injured the very cause of missions which it was its avowed object to promote.

Things had arrived at that point, that every member who loved the cause of missions, or even the peace of our Zion, looked forward to the meetings of the Convention with fear and apprehension. Our best men were becoming glad of an opportunity to be absent from its meetings. When the separation between the North and the South took place, every one saw that a totally different organization had become absolutely indispensable. The Constitution of the present Missionary Union, which is formed on entirely different principles, was unanimously adopted. This was the end of the only representative organization ever attempted among us. The result showed it to be utterly alien from all our principles, and calculated to work nothing but division and dissension among us. ...
 

Squire Robertsson

Administrator
Administrator
What developed in the North was a group of interlocking organizations. There was a Northern Baptist (fill in the purpose) here Society covering just about every conceivable ministry need. Each of these organizations were focused on a particular need be it foreign missions, home missions, Bible and literature publication, colleges and seminaries, etc. . I characterized them as interlocking as many of the same men sat on the boards of these institutions. Not that the board membership was identical, but there was sufficient overlap for philosophical continuity.
 

rlvaughn

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Perhaps someone "in the know" could start another thread to explain the history being made right now with the group on the west coast pulling out of the American Baptist Churches USA (formerly Northern Baptist Convention). Thanks.
 

Joseph M. Smith

New Member
Very briefly, and without real insider information -- this latest division in a denominational family that seems to splinter off dissidents regularly seems to me to arise from a stubborn unwillingness to listen to reasoned debate and from a desire to be "more righteous than thou".

ABC of the Pacific Southwest seems to have a cadre of leaders who deeply mistrust the ABC's national leadership, particularly when the national leaders and the denomination's policy boards have said repeatedly that God's plan for sexual expression is the marriage of a man and a woman. There is no equivocation, as I read it, in the ABC's stance concerning marriage over against homosexual activity.

But there are individual churches which are homosexual-welcoming. The ABC has refused to disfellowship those churches, saying that in Baptist polity the local church is autonomous and determines its own policies without interference from the denomination. That is not strong enough for ABCPSW -- or, that is, many of its folks. They want the ABC to turn loose of so-named "Welcoming and Affirming" congregations. And so the region, as a whole, has voted to leave ABC.

However, just to illustrate the point about Baptist polity, a number of ABCPSW congregations that disagree with this decision are moving toward affiliation with another ABC region, the one based in Los Angeles. That does not mean that they are gay-friendly; it means that they are committed to their ABC heritage and missions work.

What will become of the ABCPSW as a unit? Too early to tell whether it will become another Baptist mini-denomination or will join another affiliation or, more probably, just wither.
 

tinytim

<img src =/tim2.jpg>
Also just because a region pulls out of ABC-USA, does not mean a local church within that region has to. You don't need to belong to region to belong to ABC-USA. That precedent was set in 1999.

Our church belongs to the ABC-USA, and the Region WVBC. If the WVBC would decide to pull away from the ABC, our church could still vote to belong to both.

The WVBC would have no authority to tell our church to get out of the ABC. That is local church autonomy. Something that I will fight for.

Without autonomy, we are no longer Baptists.
 

Debby in Philly

Active Member
Not so, Tim. When my church wanted to pull out from the ABC (over the same issue as the southwest region is), we were told that to do so required us to leave the Philadelphia Baptist Association (our region), and in so doing, we would be leaving the ABC.
Therefore, if a region leaves, its churches would as well, unless they joined another region or formed their own. No church is a direct member of the ABC national organization.
 

Joseph M. Smith

New Member
Interesting. Theoretically Baptist polity would have it that a local church determines any and all of its affiliations. For example, here in the D. C. Baptist Convention, the Convention itself is triply aligned with ABCUSA, SBC, and PNBC. But each church makes up its own mind about those affiliations, with some of our churches having overtly rejected SBC, and other churches having historic affiliations with NBC, etc. It is true that I know of no church with an affiliation with ABCUSA and not a regional affiliation, but the pattern here certainly speaks to local autonomy. While a local church that wanted to leave ABCUSA but not the region would make for a certain degree of organizational chaos, I really do not think our polity should require "all or nothing" affiliation.
 

tinytim

<img src =/tim2.jpg>
Originally posted by Debby in Philly:
Not so, Tim. When my church wanted to pull out from the ABC (over the same issue as the southwest region is), we were told that to do so required us to leave the Philadelphia Baptist Association (our region), and in so doing, we would be leaving the ABC.
Therefore, if a region leaves, its churches would as well, unless they joined another region or formed their own. No church is a direct member of the ABC national organization.
Who told you that? ABC, or PBA?
In the late 90's a few churches were disfellowshiped from their regions because of welcoming and affirming. ( I think it was 5 of them) The ABC-USA allowed them to be aligned with the ABC-USA without going through a region.

That set a precedent.
We, the WVBC, acted on it and in 2000 a vote was held at our annual meeting that allowed a church to pull out of the ABC-USA but still be aligned with the WVBC. I know it, I was there, and it was one of our biggest votes ever.

So right now we have a few churches that belong to the WVBC that don't belong to the ABC-USA.

It is the church's right (autonomy) to belong (or not to) to any organization it desires.

When the ABC-USA allowed the W/A churches to still be connected to them without a region, that set up a precedent.

So if a church here in WV wanted to belong to the ABC-USA, without going through the WVBC they could. It is unorthodox, but the precedent was set.

Now if the WVBC would want to pull out of ABC-USA, what would stop a church from petitioning ABC to join, or just realign with another region? Or a set of churches starting their own region? theoretically a church in WV could:
1) be a part of WVBC + ABC-USA (the norm)
2) be a part of WVBC and not ABC-USA (some are)
3) be a part of ABC without going through WVBC.
4) or if WVBC were to pull out of ABC, join together with other churches to form another region (XYZ) and be apart of that region (XYZ) affiliated with ABC, and still be a part of WVBC.

(toooo many letters)!!!!!!
Tim
 

Squire Robertsson

Administrator
Administrator
Originally posted by Joseph M. Smith:
Very briefly, and without real insider information -- this latest division in a denominational family that seems to splinter off dissidents regularly seems to me to arise from a stubborn unwillingness to listen to reasoned debate and from a desire to be "more righteous than thou". SNIP
Pardon me for a moment while I endeavor to channel my inner Myron Cedarhom, Robert Ketchem, Arno Wenigar, Sr., Archer Wenigar, Richard Clearwaters, Richard Weeks, James Hollowood, Ernest Pickering, et al..
[rich, thunderous, baritone, preaching voice, on]
YOU CAN'T AND DON'T TRY TO REASONABLY DEBATE WITH APOSTATES, LIBERALS AND MODERNISTS.
[rich, thunderous, baritone, preaching voice, off]
 

tinytim

<img src =/tim2.jpg>
No, but standing for truth and being willing to fight for what is right, instead of turning a whole denom. over to apostates is honorable.

There are plenty of great ABC churches out there that are standing on truth. But the more that run away from the fight, the weaker we become.

At what point in history has a Baptist ever been afraid to fight for the truth?
NOt until the homosexual issue came along.
It seems that some are afraid to tackle the issue. Affirming homosexuality is WRONG! But forfeiting the game because it seems impossible to win is wrong also.
 
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