1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Featured The P in T.U.L.I.P

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by Barry Johnson, Jun 15, 2020.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    18,197
    Likes Received:
    550
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Yet another "taint so" post questioning my understanding. This is all they have folks, disparage and deflect. The T, U, L, and I of the TULIP are bogus views hindering the our understanding of the gospel.
     
  2. Calminian

    Calminian Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2016
    Messages:
    5,845
    Likes Received:
    799
    Another victory claim by Van. Shocked.
     
    • Winner Winner x 1
  3. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    50,703
    Likes Received:
    2,617
    Faith:
    Baptist
    The only things bogus is how he understands those passages!
     
  4. Calminian

    Calminian Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2016
    Messages:
    5,845
    Likes Received:
    799
    I'd like to see him at least address the passage. He's the only one I know that drops the mic before actually speaking into it.
     
    • Funny Funny x 2
  5. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    18,197
    Likes Received:
    550
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Another deflection, another personal attack. This is all they have. The TULI of the TULIP are bogus doctrines hindering our understanding of the gospel.

    Total Spiritual Inability declares we cannot to led to Christ with our ability to understand scripture. However scripture says the LAW leads us to Christ. Therefore the T is obviously unbiblical.

    Unconditional Election declares salvation is not accessible through faith in Jesus Christ, because only those individually chosen before creation unconditionally will be altered so they can put their faith and devotion in Jesus Christ. However, 2 Thessalonians 2:13 plainly teaches we are chosen for salvation through or on the basis of faith in the truth.

    Limited Atonement declares Christ did not die for all mankind, but only for the supposedly previously chosen elect. However God desires "all men" to be saved and therefore Christ laid down His life as a ransom for all. 1 Timothy 2:5

    Irresistible Grace declares God first enables a lost person to trust in Christ, then irresistibly causes the person to "willingly" trust fully in Christ. However, Matthew 23:13 tells of men who were entering the kingdom, thus somehow enabled to seek God, yet were prevented from entering by false teachers, and therefore not being compelled by irresistible grace.
     
  6. Calminian

    Calminian Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2016
    Messages:
    5,845
    Likes Received:
    799
    And yet, another mic drop. Van, you truly are your own biggest fan (maybe even super-fan).
     
  7. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    18,197
    Likes Received:
    550
    Faith:
    Baptist
    On and on go the personal attacks, always avoiding any useful discussion of TULI.

    The TULI of the TULIP are bogus doctrines hindering our understanding of the gospel.

    Total Spiritual Inability declares we cannot to led to Christ with our ability to understand scripture. However scripture (Galatians 3:24) says the LAW leads us to Christ. Therefore the T is obviously unbiblical.

    Unconditional Election declares salvation is not accessible through faith in Jesus Christ, because only those individually chosen before creation unconditionally will be altered so they can put their faith and devotion in Jesus Christ. However, 2 Thessalonians 2:13 plainly teaches we are chosen for salvation through or on the basis of faith in the truth.

    Limited Atonement declares Christ did not die for all mankind, but only for the supposedly previously chosen elect. However God desires "all men" to be saved and therefore Christ laid down His life as a ransom for all. 1 Timothy 2:5

    Irresistible Grace declares God first enables a lost person to trust in Christ, then irresistibly causes the person to "willingly" trust fully in Christ. However, Matthew 23:13 tells of men who were entering the kingdom, thus somehow enabled to seek God, yet were prevented from entering by false teachers, and therefore not being compelled by irresistible grace.
     
  8. Calminian

    Calminian Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2016
    Messages:
    5,845
    Likes Received:
    799
    And defensive, good grief. You engage, then run for cover with your mic drops. It's a head scratcher.

    I get these disagreements, I really do, but with you I have to ask. Did a calvinist bully you as a child?
     
  9. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    18,197
    Likes Received:
    550
    Faith:
    Baptist
    On and on, deflection of display, addressing me and never the topic.

    The TULI of the TULIP are bogus doctrines hindering our understanding of the gospel.

    Total Spiritual Inability declares we cannot to led to Christ with our ability to understand scripture. However scripture (Galatians 3:24) says the LAW leads us to Christ. Therefore the T is obviously unbiblical.

    Unconditional Election declares salvation is not accessible through faith in Jesus Christ, because only those individually chosen before creation unconditionally will be altered so they can put their faith and devotion in Jesus Christ. However, 2 Thessalonians 2:13 plainly teaches we are chosen for salvation through or on the basis of faith in the truth.

    Limited Atonement declares Christ did not die for all mankind, but only for the supposedly previously chosen elect. However God desires "all men" to be saved and therefore Christ laid down His life as a ransom for all. 1 Timothy 2:5

    Irresistible Grace declares God first enables a lost person to trust in Christ, then irresistibly causes the person to "willingly" trust fully in Christ. However, Matthew 23:13 tells of men who were entering the kingdom, thus somehow enabled to seek God, yet were prevented from entering by false teachers, and therefore not being compelled by irresistible grace.
     
  10. Calminian

    Calminian Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2016
    Messages:
    5,845
    Likes Received:
    799
    The irony is, you don't even seem to realize who you're speaking with, nor what he believes.

    Van, here's a thought. Maybe, just maybe, you should consider the toll this debate is having on you. Are you making an impact? Are you growing in knowledge? Or is defensive-bitterness taking hold?
     
  11. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    18,197
    Likes Received:
    550
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Once again the advocate of falsehood deflects from discussion of bogus views, and addresses me personally, always finding fault.
     
  12. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2018
    Messages:
    4,779
    Likes Received:
    1,132
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Van,
    According to the Bible itself, I see these as the only things hindering a person's understanding and belief of the Gospel:

    " For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God." ( 1 Corinthians 1:18 )
    They are lost.

    " But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
    4 in whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them."
    ( 2 Corinthians 4:3-4 ).

    Again, they are lost.
    Satan can only hinder the message of the Gospel to them that are lost, not to them that are saved.
    The saved will "hear" it ( Romans 10:8-10 ) and will believe it at some point in their lives ( 2 Peter 3:9 ).

    What do you see the Bible stating, as to why some believe and others do not?
    Please share the Scriptures which outright declare who and why the Gospel is hindered, if you are so inclined.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  13. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    18,197
    Likes Received:
    550
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Another change the subject post, but no effort to explain the scripture that teaches the TULI is bogus.

    And, as if you did not know, these verses refer to those who have rejected the gospel, and not to the "fields white for harvest."

    Total Spiritual Inability declares we cannot to led to Christ with our inability to understand scripture. However scripture (Galatians 3:24) says the LAW leads us to Christ. Therefore the T is obviously unbiblical.

    Unconditional Election declares salvation is not accessible through faith in Jesus Christ, because only those individually chosen before creation unconditionally will be altered so they can put their faith and devotion in Jesus Christ. However, 2 Thessalonians 2:13 plainly teaches we are chosen for salvation through or on the basis of faith in the truth.

    Limited Atonement declares Christ did not die for all mankind, but only for the supposedly previously chosen elect. However God desires "all men" to be saved and therefore Christ laid down His life as a ransom for all. 1 Timothy 2:6

    Irresistible Grace declares God first enables a lost person to trust in Christ, then irresistibly causes the person to "willingly" trust fully in Christ. However, Matthew 23:13 tells of men who were entering the kingdom, thus somehow enabled to seek God, yet were prevented from entering by false teachers, and therefore not being compelled by irresistible grace.
     
    #53 Van, Jun 20, 2020
    Last edited: Jun 20, 2020
  14. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2018
    Messages:
    4,779
    Likes Received:
    1,132
    Faith:
    Baptist
    You made a statement and I asked you to answer it.
    It was no more complicated than that.
    The answer, Scripturally, is part of why some believe and others do not.
    The Law leads God's elect ( the "whosoever believeth" ) to Christ.
    Amen.

    If you'll notice, not one epistle was ever addressed to unbelievers.
    They were for the eyes of God's children alone.
    Based on what I see in John 3:19-10, Romans 1:18-32, Romans 3:10-18, Ephesians 4:17-19, Psalms 10, Psalms 14, Psalms 53 and many other places, it is obvious to me that it is indeed biblical.
    These passages describe a willful, obstinate and spiritually darkened mind that refuses to repent no matter what... due to a hatred of Jesus Christ and a love for sin.

    I'm not sure why you do not see it, but the words on the page are very descriptive, Van.
    Unconditional Election declares that God does the saving, with no help from men.
    2 Thessalonians 2:13 states that God chose the Thessalonian believers through two things, not because of them.

    That faith is involved is not the issue.
    The issue is, "where does 'saving' faith come from?"
    Answer:

    Ephesians 2:8
    Hebrews 12:2
    Galatians 2:16
    Galatians 2:20. <----- The faith the believer lives by, is the faith "of" ( by or from ) the Son of God.
    Romans 3:22.

    It's a gift, Van...
    and it's not one that all men have ( 1 Thessalonians 3:2 ).
    It is the faith of God's elect ( Titus 1:1 ).
     
    #54 Dave G, Jun 20, 2020
    Last edited: Jun 20, 2020
  15. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2018
    Messages:
    4,779
    Likes Received:
    1,132
    Faith:
    Baptist
    The "all men" in 1 Timothy 2 contextually, are those Paul is telling Timothy to pray for...
    Kings and for those in authority..
    All kinds of men.

    Also, Scripture plainly states that Christ died for His sheep ( Matthew 1:21, John 10:11 ), and that only they were washed in His blood and reconciled to God by the death of His Son ( Romans 5:10 ).
    No one else enjoys the the fact that God loved them even when they were dead in trespasses and sins, than do those who would believe.
    See Ephesians 2.

    Those given by God the Father to His Son ( John 6:65, John 17:2 ).
    No man can come to Christ unless it is given to that person to come, by God the Father...
    That is what John 6 develops.
    This is true.
    How else could Lydia attend ( listen intently ) to the words of Paul without the Lord first opening her heart ( Acts of the Apostles 16:14 )?

    " Blessed [is the man whom] thou choosest, and causest to approach [unto thee, that] he may dwell in thy courts: we shall be satisfied with the goodness of thy house, even of thy holy temple." ( Psalms 65:4 ).

    Blessed is the person whom the Lord chooses, and causes to approach.
    Words could not be any plainer, Van.
     
  16. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2018
    Messages:
    4,779
    Likes Received:
    1,132
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Here's the verse for comparison:

    " But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in [yourselves], neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in."
    ( Matthew 23:13 ).

    It plainly declares that the Pharisees were hypocrites, shutting up the kingdom of Heaven against men.
    They neither were going in themselves, nor were they permitting those that are ( present tense ) entering in, to go in.

    Two groups are represented in this statement, Van.

    Those that are not entering in and are not willing that others go in ( the religious )...
    and those that are entering in..
    the righteous, those who have been made so by the blood of His Son.
    The elect, who are justified by God ( Romans 8:33 ), not because of their actions.

    We who have believed on Christ enjoy God's love, His mercy and grace, and the fact that He has justified us and given us the faith that shows that we are justified by Him.
    Faith is evidence ( Hebrews 11:1 ), not means.

    Faith is not a work...
    It cannot be made into one, either.
    What's more, belief on Christ for the forgiveness of sins is the work of God ( John 6:29 ), not the work of men.


    Good evening to you sir.
     
    #56 Dave G, Jun 20, 2020
    Last edited: Jun 20, 2020
  17. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2018
    Messages:
    3,626
    Likes Received:
    933
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Context for Galatians 3:
    3 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?

    2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

    3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

    4 Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain.

    5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

    6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.

    7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

    8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

    9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.

    10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

    11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

    12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.

    13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree: 14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

    15 Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man's covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto.

    16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

    17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.

    18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.

    19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

    20 Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.

    21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.

    22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

    23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

    24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

    25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

    26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

    27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

    28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

    29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

    Galatians 3:24 is not about Total Inability at all. You have ignored the context of Galatians 3 which is about contrasting salvation by the Law with salvation by Faith and making the point that Salvation does not come from the Law, Salvation comes by Faith.

    So the critical question for addressing the T in TULIP is what is the source of Faith?
    • [Eph 2:8 NASB] 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, [it is] the gift of God;
    • [Rom 8:29-30 NASB] 29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined [to become] conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; 30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.
    • [Jhn 6:44-45 NASB] 44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day. 45 "It is written in the prophets, 'AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me.
    • [Jhn 15:16 NASB] 16 "You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and [that] your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  18. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    18,197
    Likes Received:
    550
    Faith:
    Baptist
    The gift of faith is bogus unbiblical doctrine.
    Galatians 3:24 indicates the "us" refers to everyone under sin who believes. Thus the actual meaning is that the LAW leads those under sin to Christ, and is not limited to the elect.
    John 3:19-21 does not say "all men." This pattern of reading into the text to support bogus doctrine is twaddle. And the claim the OT passages describe hate for Jesus is ludicrous.
    Next we get the denial that "through" does not mean on the basis of. Taint so claims make scripture to no effect.
    There is no issue of where the faith comes from, it is our faith which God credits as righteousness. Here we have your denial of Romans 4:4-5, Romans 4:23-24
    Did I say all men have faith? Nope so more deflection.
    Finally, the "faith of God's elect" refers to the faith of those whose faith God credits as righteousness.

    Calvinism cannot be defended, only asserted by false claims.
     
  19. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    18,197
    Likes Received:
    550
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Again and again Calvinists rewrite the bible to pour bogus doctrine into it. God desires all men to be saved means God desires some men to be saved? Hogwash.
     
  20. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    18,197
    Likes Received:
    550
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Those who are entering were prevented from going in, therefore irresistible grace is bogus doctrine. If those that were coming to faith, had their less than fully formed faith credited as righteousness, God would have placed them in Christ. On and on folk, scripture after scripture is denied.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
Loading...