So am I to understand that knowledge of good and evil ended with the death of Adam and Evil, and you are an advocate Pelagianism?
The Particular Mercy of God
Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by AustinC, Sep 28, 2021.
Page 3 of 8
-
MB -
You can't prove your theory so now like the Calvinist you attack me with insults accusing me of pelagianismm. Just so you have something else to accuse me of I do not believe babies go to hell because of someone else's sins either..
MB -
MB -
For the recorded I am of the point of view that the knowledge of good and evil is the cause of Adam and Eve's spiritual death and the spiritual death of all who are conceived except Christ. Your agreement with my understanding is not required for me. -
You still have not proven you assumption that babies are sinners because they inherited Adam's sin. You haven't proven anyone inherited sin from anyone.So stop making statements like there in scripture when they aren't.
MB -
MB -
Romans 5
12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned.
To me, Adam = mankind.
@MB (I added this to my reply above):
I believe the above is also why Paul tells us,
Romans 2
1 Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.
2 But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things.
3 And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?
4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?
We are all guilty. -
Am I right?
MB -
Before the flood, there was a great big ship being constructed on a plain somewhere in the Middle East. Anyone who at the preaching of Noah believed, was welcome to enter it. Yet only 8 people did. I believe it's not that God did not want the rest (or as many as possible) to repent of their wickedness and unbelief and get themselves into the ark and be saved, but that He had judged the world and decreed to end all flesh 120 years before the flood came - but the door of the ark remained open until the day God Himself shut the door:
Hebrews 11:7
"By faith Noah, having been warned by God of things not yet seen, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house, by which he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith."
It was because of their unbelief that those who perished were not in the ark. Their unbelief condemned them:
John 3:17-19
"For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but so that the world might be saved through Him. He who believes on Him is not condemned, but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only-begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
I do believe that God knew before the foundation of the world who would and would not believe (and why they refused to believe) - but that's the thing - Jesus does not say that the reason they do not believe is because they are not called or given witness - He says that the reason they refuse to believe is because they loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
To me even though God chose in Christ those who would believe even before the foundation of the world, and had foreknowledge of who would be in the Ark of our salvation and who would not, this foreknowledge does not speak of God choosing who would love darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. -
17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.
Which people? It's clearly not talking about the Gentiles, but Israel, which shows that there's another fact that you are ignoring - the fact that He is not only of the seed of Abraham, but also the son of Man (Matthew 8:20 and many other verses), the second man and the last Adam (1 Corinthians 15:45, 47) - meaning He came to represent all mankind - all the sons of Adam. He was prophesied to come through the seed of Abraham - but He is also the son of Man. -
not Pelagian. And I am not a Calvinist. Though some of my beliefs might seem similar. I believe the same Scriptures, but not the same as the Calvinist. -
.. and for that we need to be called first:
John 6
44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who has sent Me draw him, and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 12:31-32
"Now is the judgement of this world. Now shall the prince of this world be cast out. And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, I will draw all to Myself."
I don't believe that all who are called are chosen - because many refused to believe when they were called, because they loved darkness rather than light (John 3:19).
Only those who hear, repent, believe and submit are chosen - and they were chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world. -
MB -
Genesis 2:16-17, ". . . And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. . . ." What do you understand about that tree? Also God did not make Eve yet (still day six Genesis 1). -
They did not believe precisely because God gave them up to their sins and chose not to mercifully have them believe. God was under no obligation to mercifully save them. Yet, God, fulfilling his will and purpose, saved Noah and his family. God moved Noah and family to believe. Jesus uses the term "draw", which means to drag up, like a bucket out of a well draws up water. The water doesn't choose to go up the well, indeed it cannot because it is a slave to gravity. But a more powerful force can draw it up. That's what God does for all whom he chooses.
Mankind, by nature is evil and will never choose God.
Romans 8:5-8 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God’s law; indeed, it cannot. Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
The mystery of how God does this election is not revealed to us. That is for the Sovereign King. What we know is that whosoever believes will be saved. The whosoever is the elect, the ones God chose from before the foundation of the world.
You leave a little wiggle room for mankind to cooperate with God. God doesn't give that wiggle room. He tells us that no one cooperates with God outside of Christ Jesus. No one seeks God. There is no wiggle room. We were all dead in our trespasses and sins until God made us alive with Christ. By grace you were saved. (Ephesians 2:1-9) -
Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
I was drawn, convicted of my sin. The hearing of the gospel gave me faith and the Holy Spirit convinced me of Christ as Savior. I was saved by Jesus Christ. Not the holy Spirit.as some here claim. Of course the Holy Spirit had a lot to do with it. Never the less it's called a relationship with the Lord and I had a choice. That choice was to believe or not to. I was 14 years old at the time. A relationship is a mutual agreement.
MB. -
MB -
-
ad finitum Active Member
God didn't have to provide a destiny of deliverance for those whom He foreknew would seek Him. That fact that he does so, of His free will demonstrates His love, not our manipulation. There is no way were are controlling God in His decision to provide deliverance. God choses to do that from His own motives of Love and He made His choice before we made ours.
Page 3 of 8