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The Rapture when is it?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Yabruf, Feb 3, 2018.

?
  1. Pre-Tribulation

    11 vote(s)
    68.8%
  2. Post-Tribulation

    5 vote(s)
    31.3%
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  1. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    The Great tribulation will be like NONE before in History, and very much doubt AD 70 ful;filled that!
     
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  2. Rob_BW

    Rob_BW Well-Known Member
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    Forget blood moons, when the Lions and Browns compete in the Super Bowl...it'll be soon.
    :Laugh
     
  3. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    Oh, you mean this...

    ...?

    Perhaps you should continue reading in the proof texts provided, because Christ's teaching does not end in Matthew 24:34, but continues into Chapter 25.

    And as I mentioned, the Prophecy calls for one specific event, which is the original question posed to the Lord:


    Matthew 24
    King James Version (KJV)

    24 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.

    2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

    3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?



    A couple reasons the concept of the First Century events being the "Great Tribulation" is impossible, and we will start with this text:

    First, Christ did not return in the First Century.

    Secondly, the question does not just ask what the signs of His Return are (which is seen in Matthew 25), they ask when the Age is going to end. Now the Age of Law ended, not some 35 years later, but when Christ died on the Cross, rose again, and established the New Covenant which formally when He sent the Comforter, Who began a ministry of conviction through the Revelation of the Mystery of the Gospel of Christ. Again, when that Age ended, Christ did not return, and no Age ended during the First Century events some try to see fulfilling Matthew 24.

    Next, let's go to your next proof text, and see another clear statement that the Return of Christ is associated with these events, and to proclaim them fulfilled without the Return of Christ leaves much to be desired:


    Mark 13
    King James Version (KJV)

    4 Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign when all these things shall be fulfilled?

    5 And Jesus answering them began to say, Take heed lest any man deceive you:

    6 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.



    The point is, "Many will come and say they are Me, but don't believe it." The false christs are contrasted with the primary point of His teaching, which is about...

    ...His Return and the end of the Age.

    And that Age that ends is the Age in which the Temple is destroyed, which is the Church Age, which began when the New Covenant was established, and men began to be reconciled to God through the Cross.

    Another issue is...the Antichrist. Now I know you think Nero was the Antichrist spoken of here...


    14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:



    ...but can I suggest to you that he is not?

    Why? Thanks for asking...because we do not see the Prophecy of Antichrist's rise to power end the way that Daniel teaches it.

    And again, the primary event you are missing is the Return of Christ.

    Consider the prophecy that surrounds the Antichrist the Christ is speaking of:


    Daniel 12:6-12
    King James Version (KJV)

    6 And one said to the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, How long shall it be to the end of these wonders?

    7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.

    8 And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things?

    9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.

    10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.

    11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

    12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.



    In view is 3 1/2 years, no different than the 3 1/2 years the Antichrist is empowered in Revelation 13:4-5, however, we see an additional period of thirty days added (which likely marks an event that takes place 30 days after Christ's Return), and an additional 45 days after that, bringing a total of 75 days additional to the time that the Abomination of Desolation stands where it ought not.

    And we know this is relevant because Christ said it was, so, the question is...how can you believe that the Great Tribulation that Christ foretells occurred in the First Century? Because "this generation will not pass until all be fulfilled?

    Again, the problem is, that generation you say saw the Great Tribulation has passed...

    ...and it has not all been fulfilled.

    The generation in view are those who see the signs of His coming, which is what He describes in all three texts you provide.

    And I know you would probably be upset with me if I didn't comment on your last proof text, so let's look at that too:


    Luke 21:27-28
    King James Version (KJV)

    27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

    28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.



    Don't you just love how consistent the Word of God is?


    Mark 13:26-27
    King James Version (KJV)

    26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

    27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.



    The Elect were not gathered in the First Century. Not by Christ, and that is another element that denies a First Century fulfillment.


    Matthew 24:30-31
    King James Version (KJV)

    30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

    31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.




    As I said earlier, if you continue reading into Matthew 25, we actually have the Lord describing the gathering of His Elect:


    Matthew 25:31-33
    King James Version (KJV)

    31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

    32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

    33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.



    So again, I ask...

    ...when do we see the Return of Christ in the First Century. Prophecy is not revealed until that takes place. This is the Testimony of Scripture in every relevant passage concerning the Tribulation and the Return of Christ.


    Continued...
     
  4. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    Sorry, but the Great Tribulation did not take place in the First Century.

    And it could not have, because (taking this back to the OP) the Pre-Tribulation Rapture will in fact occur prior to the Tribulation.

    And the reason we know this, KYR, is because when Christ returns in the Second Coming, the Sheep and Goat Judgment will take place, and all unbelievers are destroyed physically. The only ones left to enter into the Millennial Kingdom are the believers born again during the Tribulation, who did not die.

    If we keep Prophecy as it is given, there is harmony: Christ returns, judges the Goats (unbelievers), and establishes the Millennial Kingdom, which allows for the PRophecy of Revelation 19-20 to remain intact without jumping through a lot of hoops to try to support the radical notion that The Great Tribulation took place in the First Century.

    I've never understood why Reformed Theology adopted an amillennial position, unless it was just to have something different than Catholics (as I have seen said to be the case). Ironically, we have a hard time telling the difference between Catholic and much of Reformed Eschatology these days (that has been the most popular view over the last five centuries) because both spiritualize Scripture so badly that it loses the very reason it was given for. Secondly, it demands one simply write much Old Testament Prophecy which has not been fulfilled out of Scripture.

    So, if you (or any) would like to discuss an amil or preterist view, feel free to bring it to the table. We can examine Prophecy in an expanded context and see where Prophecy is nullified by the view you teach. That is okay with me, because that is one of the ways to show that the Rapture of the Church will take place prior to the beginning of the Tribulation.

    Prophecy demands that, or...we have to nullify quite a bit of it. And the simple truth we will see in Scripture is that Prophecy is always fulfilled to the jot and tittle.


    Well, polls do not determine truth in Scripture, nor verifies the veracity of any System of Theology.

    So let's look at it.


    God bless.
     
  5. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    Well, if you're thinking that's there's going to be another tribulation you should call it 'the lesser tribulation' because 'the great tribulation' occurred in the 1st century.

    21 for then shall be great tribulation, such as hath not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, nor ever shall be.
    34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all these things be accomplished. Mt 24

    19 For those days shall be tribulation, such as there hath not been the like from the beginning of the creation which God created until now, and never shall be.
    30 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, until all these things be accomplished. Mk 13
     
  6. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    Gosh, you really prove your point with this post...


    God bless.
     
  7. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    Do you mind if I ask what type of Baptist you are, David?


    God bless.
     
  8. David Kent

    David Kent Well-Known Member
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    Too late to reply to your posts tonight, but you are wrong, I will try to reply tomorrow,
     
  9. David Kent

    David Kent Well-Known Member
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    I would follow the 1644. 1646, and 1689 Baptist confessions.
     
  10. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    But I never said you wouldn't reply tomorrow...

    ;)

    That's great, David, its a great discussion, and look forward to it. Tomorrow is going to be busy, so it may be day after before I can get to it, but, bring what you have to the table.


    God bless.
     
  11. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    What is the name of the Church you fellowship with? Or denomination, that was more the question.


    God bless.
     
  12. Squire Robertsson

    Squire Robertsson Administrator
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    Considering it's 1:10 AM for David, I'll try to give a partial answer for him. He is an Englishman, living in the County of Kent. British Baptist groupings do not track the American ones.
     
  13. Wesley Briggman

    Wesley Briggman Active Member
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    Should the time of the rapture be considered in relation to the marriage supper of the Lamb?
     
  14. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    @kyredneck is not amillennial-- or not as I understand it, anyway. But Reformed folk are also postmil and historic premil.
    But I'm not sure ky would describe himself as Reformed either; I wouldn't describe him so.
     
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  15. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    Which is why the challenge was open to the amil and preterist.


    True, but my understanding of the popularity of the amillennial view (which is said to be the view most adopted over the last five hundred years) stems from the Reformer's desire to separate themselves from Catholic Doctrine, which used to hold to a premillennial position, but, as I said, we have a hard time seeing the difference because both spiritualize so much of prophecy (meaning they make it analogy, metaphor, etc.) that the sum total is very close.


    Doesn't matter, the influence of Reformed Theology is the likely root of the position he holds.

    And it is a rejection of Prophecy as Prophecy as always been interpreted, despite the fact that Prophecy does use figurative language. There is a difference between how prophecies such as that of Christ and salvation have been fulfilled and how the amil and preterist approach Revelation.

    Revelation is a comprehensive timeline which gives us, in order, the events of the Tribulation. Prophecy demands a seven year Tribulation and a Pre-Tribulation Rapture, and my hope is that the amils and preterist who think they can support their doctrine from Scripture won't beg off the discussion as has been done typically in the past.

    So again, bring what you have to the table, let's discuss it.

    And I would ask that instead of simply continuing to throw proof texts as they are dismantled, please also address the points provided that support the Pre-Tribulation Rapture, and the consistency of Prophecy.


    God bless.
     
    #35 Darrell C, Feb 7, 2018
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2018
  16. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    Interesting. So they would simply be known as "British Baptists?"

    Be interesting to know how far back they go.

    And I guess its obvious American Baptists don't track British groupings, lol.

    I myself am the first member of The Restored Baptist Assembly, lol. Kind of a joke but also somewhat serious, because I do not particularly ascribe to all of the teachings of any particular Baptist faith, though I usually fellowship in Fundamental Independent and Southern Baptist fellowships. We are currently seeking a new Church Home due to some issues I have with the fellowship I have been a part of for about the last 7-8 years. We have been visiting a number of different types of Baptist fellowships (and a few non-denominational ones, though they turned out to actually be what non-denominational represents...Charismatic, lol. Nice folk but seriously confused about some important issues) and at this point I think we are going to strictly visit SB fellowships. The one we visited this weekend was pretty impressive, and there was a sense of a true love for God's Word and His people.

    Sorry, didn't mean to go on about that.


    God bless.
     
  17. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    Okay, we have looked at the issue of the concept that "the generation" spoken of by Christ in relation to His return could not possibly be the generation He spoke to when He prophesied of end time events, primarily because we did not see Christ return in the First Century. We also did not see the gathering of His Elect, which is another important event when Christ returns. We also did not see, obviously, the Sheep and Goat Judgment, which would be the time when Christ gathers the elect, as well as unbelievers...for judgment.

    And we did not see the establishment of the Kingdom promised by God to Israel in the Old Testament, which the disciples inquire about here:


    Acts 1:4-8
    King James Version (KJV)

    4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.

    5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.



    The Promise in view here is the Baptism with the Holy Ghost. Christ defines the promise in v.5.

    Amazingly, the disciples, after being told they will receive the Spirit He teaches them of in John 14-16, ask about the Promise of the Restored Kingdom. We understand why their understanding is still carnal, because they...

    ...have not yet been Baptized with the Holy Ghost.

    Or in other words...they have not been baptized by Christ (the Baptizer, Matthew 3:11-12) into God, or, immersed in God in Eternal Union, which is what Christ came to accomplish, the Reconciliation of fallen man to God.

    Does Christ say, "Sorry men, that is no longer the route We are going to take?" Not at all...


    6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?

    7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.



    The implication is very clear, :No, that is not going to happen at this time, and it is not for you to know...when it is going to happen."

    Again He emphasizes what is critical for them to understand at that time:


    8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.



    "The Holy Ghost coming upon them" is the same thing He tells them to await in Jerusalem for...the Baptism with the Holy Ghost, which is the moment one receives Eternal Redemption through Eternal Union with God, and Regeneration is the result of that Union. We are new creatures because we now have GOd residing in us, and it is His indwelling Spirit that cause us to walk in His statutes and to keep His judgments.

    Most commentators consider the Baptism with the Holy Ghost an "empowering" only, but that is grievous error. They confuse the Baptism with the Holy Ghost with the filling of the Holy Ghost, which is something GOd has been doing since the Garden, empowering men for His good purpose, often for ministry, such as Prophet, Priest, and King.

    And we know the disciples had been empowered before, because they were sent out to preach, not the Gospel of Jesus Christ, because this would remain a Mystery until the Spirit is sent, but...the Gospel of the Kingdom.

    So one of the errors we see in those who deny the Millennial Kingdom is a confusion about several issues which all contribute to a pretty confusing Eschatology. This is why they redefine how Prophecy is to be interpreted in Revelation, deny that God will fulfill the Prophecy and Promise of the Old Testament, and in general deny Prophecy altogether.

    And the first example we have is the denial of Prophecy's clear teaching that Christ will return after the Tribulation. And that is precisely what John states will happen at the end of the Tribulation:


    Revelation 19:11-16
    King James Version (KJV)

    11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

    12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

    13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

    14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

    15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

    16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, King Of Kings, And Lord Of Lords.



    We see the same thing here that Christ foretells in Matthew 24-25, which is, the return of Christ at the end of the Tribulation and judgment upon unbelievers, starting with the Antichrist and False Prophet:


    17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;

    18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

    19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

    20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

    21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.



    So we see the Return of the King, and the destruction of the enemies of Christ.

    And that is consistent with all prophecy surrounding Christ's return...


    Continued...
     
  18. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    And that is consistent with all prophecy surrounding Christ's return:


    Matthew 24:27-28
    King James Version (KJV)

    27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

    28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.


    Luke 17:26-30
    King James Version (KJV)

    26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.

    27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.

    28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;

    29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.

    30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.



    The Lord tells them one will be taken, and one left, and the disciples ask...where will they be "taken?"


    34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.

    35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

    36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

    37 And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.



    This is foretold in Ezekiel:


    Ezekiel 39
    King James Version (KJV)

    39 Therefore, thou son of man, prophesy against Gog, and say, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I am against thee, O Gog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal:

    2 And I will turn thee back, and leave but the sixth part of thee, and will cause thee to come up from the north parts, and will bring thee upon the mountains of Israel:

    3 And I will smite thy bow out of thy left hand, and will cause thine arrows to fall out of thy right hand.

    4 Thou shalt fall upon the mountains of Israel, thou, and all thy bands, and the people that is with thee: I will give thee unto the ravenous birds of every sort, and to the beasts of the field to be devoured.

    5 Thou shalt fall upon the open field: for I have spoken it, saith the Lord God.



    Thus saith...the Lord God.

    So I look forward to seeing just how it is the Tribulation took place in the First Century, where we do not see the Lord's Return, the gathering of the Elect, or...the total destruction of all physical unbelievers. It is the physical body that is devoured by carrion fowl, not the spirit of men.

    And when the Sheep and Goat Judgment takes place, thus it will be fulfilled...


    John 3
    King James Version (KJV)

    3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

    4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

    5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.



    What were those awaiting Christ in expectancy of? The same thing the disciples of Christ were still in expectancy of, he Promise of God.

    Here, Christ ministers to a religious ruler within the framework of the revelation he did have, so our first application is within that context of the discussion. In hindsight, those of us who have been enlightened by the Promised Spirit, God Who indwells us, can understand the application in the ultimate sense, which consigns unbelievers to Eternal Separation, but...not so with Nicodemus.

    So all unbelievers are destroyed when Christ returns, just as destruction took place in the Flood and Sodom and Gomorrah...compete destruction. The death imposed in those events were physical, just as we see that the death of unbelievers at Christ's return is physical. And I am not denying the eternal nature of their destruction, just pointing out that the Lord is teaching a physical destruction of unbelievers.

    So where is the destruction of all unbelievers in the First Century?

    Where is the Return of Christ in the First Century?

    Where is the Promised Kingdom the disciples preached about when they were empowered by Christ to go out and preach the Kingdom Gospel, cast out demons, and heal?

    They aren't there, because while we might ascribe a partial fulfillment of Prophecy to First Century events, we cannot ascribe ultimate fulfillment to them.


    God bless.
     
  19. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    The proof text of the "rapture"
    1 Thessalonians 4:17
    Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
    Latin: rapiemur (rapt)
    Greek:ἁρπαγησόμεθα - root ἁρπάζω - harpazo

    To be snatched away

    There is a school of thought that the entire verse is somewhat idiomatic because "in the air" can have the equivalent English meaning of "disappeared into thin air" i.e. to an undisclosed place.

    The "clouds" being the "clouds" of witnesses (those who have preceded them).

    Somewhat unlikely.

    HankD
     
  20. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    I think being "caught up" speaks for itself, and Paul emphasizes our "going up" with familiar terminology. We will be in Heaven which is where the Lord is currently. And we will be with Him from then on out.

    So where do you stand, Hank, if you don't mind me asking?

    And I'll likely hav to check back in later, as I am out of time (an hour ago, lol).


    God bless.
     
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