The real soteriological divide...

What if I hate my brethern? Am I saved?

 

Matt,

So if I could jump to the point, you believe the 'real soteriological divide' exists between "Eternal Security" and those who don't believe in it?

I think we should have confidence and hope in the Promises of Our Lord and Saviour but also we should live lives that reflect the real joy and love of our Father. Not because He is going to take our inheritance away and fear but because we want to live lives worthy of the good things our God has done for us. Note the past tense there.

Now I know we have passages in the Scripture that can be interpreted that we should have concern if we are not shirking sin and perhaps it might be productive, to a point, to hold that opinion but we should not doubt the promises of God nor the work already done by our Lord Jesus Christ.

I know I sin. I never want to make light of such backsliding but we should always hope in our Lord that He has begun a good work in us and that He will finish it on that Last Day.

 

I think if you ever really got down to the bottom of a discussion with a true Classic Arminian and a true Classic Calvinist, you'd find that their disagreements are far more nuanced than you might be thinking. Arminians don't believe you fall in and out of God's Grace in the same manner as Classic Roman Catholic Doctrines teach. Even Calvinists admit that even the reprobate can 'think' themselves one of the elect. So your election is not ultimately determined by your profession of faith. Who then are the 'real' elect? :tongue3:

 

The real elect are those chosen by God the Father, before the foundation of the world, unto salvation in Jesus Christ.

 

This answer, though obvious, failed to address the irony in my question. If we can deceive ourselves into 'thinking' ourselves one of the elect and yet aren't... where then is our certainty in our convictions?

The point is there lies a certain irony in the presumption to be one of the elect which we need to admit.

 

HP: A very interesting point indeed. :thumbs: Can you elaborate on the ‘certain irony in the presumption we need to admit’ that you speak of?

 

We know that there will be some who say "Lord, Lord... and He will say I never knew you....". We know that not everyone who claims to be one of the Elect are actually one of the Elect. So as OldRegular answered "The real elect are those chosen by God the Father, before the foundation of the world, unto salvation in Jesus Christ" we have to admit a certain sense of irony to any certainty in one's Confession of Faith.

I'm not sure how to 'elaborate' any more than that?

 

HP: I understand. You gave it a great attempt. :thumbs:

I have always desired to find a better way to express myself on this issue. I am not happy with the way I express it. I am, as you say you are, at a loss to know how else to put it.

Here is the way I have expressed it, bearing in mind that I do not feel that such is the best way. I say that there is not only an element of doubt in faith, but of necessity must be. ( It is the 'doubt part' that I wish I could coin differently)

I know full well that we can know that we are saved. We need to have a solid and constant assurance of our final standing before God. I do not desire to sow seeds of doubt in the minds of true believers, yet just the same, none of us see the elect, in this present world as God sees them.

What I do not believe is that one, while in possession of an evil conscience, can be assured of their final standing before God. I do not believe that God has so designed our assurance of salvation to be held in any certain form while at the same time have an evil conscience stained by sin. I believe the only means of a constant and steady certain assurance of salvation can be achieved as we are walking consistently in obedience to God’s commands. That to me should be the steadfast goal of every believer, honestly believed to be achievable in this present world via the proffered Help of the Holy Spirit, to live and walk such a life. Without such a consistent walk, a consistent knowledge that we are of the elect is not, nor can it be, a certain steadfast hope.

 

"Eternal Security" is no help because God has not given us a list of the eternally secure. It should be obvious that every person who sits in a "reformed" pew is not saved.

 

HP: Where can we find help? How can I be certain that I am of the redeemed and that I will be found in Christ in the last day? Is our faith merely or only in our faith, or is there yet another way to be certain of our final standing before God?

 

bound,

I want to say something on elect. I do believe in the doctrine of elect, it is biblical, because it have in the Bible many times.

I want to show you a good verse on elect.

In 2 Peter 1:10 says: "Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for IF you DO these things, ye shall never fall."

Our responsiblity to make sure that our calling and election in our confidence, that we must DO these things, so, we would never fall. Otherwise, we might be doubt on our calling and election, while we do not do these things, we would fall away.

Clear, our salvation is conditional, that we are responsible to obey God's calling and commandment. If we fail to obey God, then we will be end up in the lake of fire according 2 Thess. 1:7-10.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

'Our' responsibility? So you're saying we can 'establish' our Salvation through works?

 

The Bible teaches eternal security in so many verses that they are too numerous for me to list. What do you mean "Eternal security is no help."

We are not to judge another's salvation but can only accept it on word of their testimony and in time by fruit of their testimony. Even then there are pretenders. It is God that knows the heart, and it is God that knows his own. Our purpose in life is not to determine the elect, for we are not God. Our purpose is to go and carry out the Great Commission: Preach the gospel to every creature. God knows their heart; none of us can even pretend that we do.

 

It's not that often DHK but I completely agree with you on this. Good times.