(CONTINUED)
Mar 13:24 “But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,John 16:33 “I have spoken these things to you so that you might have peace in Me. In the world you shall have tribulation, but be of good cheer. I have overcome the world.”
Act 14:22 “…confirming the souls of the disciples, calling on them to continue in the faith and that through much tribulation we must enter into the kingdom of God.”
Rom 2:9 “[But] tribulation and anguish upon every soul of man who has worked out evil; of the Jew first, and also of the Greek.”Rom 8:35 “Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?”
Eph 3:13 “For this reason I desire that you faint not at my tribulations for you, which is your glory.”
2Th 1:4 “… so much so that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God, for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations which you endure.[/QUOTE]Rev 2:9 “ …and tribulation and poverty (but you are rich), and I the blasphemy of those saying themselves to be Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.”Rev 2:10 “Do not at all fear what you are about to suffer. Behold, the Devil will cast some of you into prison, so that you may be tried. And you will have tribulation ten days. Be faithful to death, and I will give you the crown of life.”Rev 7:9 “After these things I looked, and lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, out of all nations and kindreds and people and tongues, stood before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palms in their hands.”[/QUOTE]Rev 7:13 And one of the elders answered, saying to me, Who are these who are arrayed in white robes, and from where do they come?
Rev 7:14 And I said to him, Sir, you know. And he said to me, These are the ones who came out of the great tribulation and have washed their robes, and have whitened them in the blood of the Lamb]/b].
WOW! What a conclusion!
Now, I think Point #1 has been answered concerning the word “tribulation?” and “great tribulation”! Thus, there can be no doubt that the Great Tribulation is nothing more than a greater degree of intensity and that “great” also refers to the lifespan of the earth as we know it today.
For now, I don’t know about you but I’ll go through the “great tribulation” for Christ any day and with confidence that I will be entitled to wear those white robes with much thankfulness for I am confidant also that Christ will not be asking me to endure “more” than what is in the scriptures that He Himself endure. That is indisputable!
The reign of amillenial theology
Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by Daniel David, Dec 23, 2004.
Page 13 of 15
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Trailblazer,
AMEN! I agree with you! Preach it!
Keep it up and study Bible! 2 Tim. 2:15
Bible does not promise us, that we shall escape from the coming 'great tribulation', or any kinds of tribulations, persecutions, etc.
Church history tells us, thousands or probaably ober millions of Christians were persecuted and killed because they preached the gospel for Christ's sake.
Matt. 24:21-22 does not saying that we shall escape from the coming 'great tribulation'. Obivously, Christ warns us, that we shall face great tribulation will come upon us, even in America too.
Ed, there is NO difference between 'great tribulation' & 'tribulations', both are same meaning. Why must we have tribulations? Because Jesus Christ suffered on the corss for us, so, therefore, we ough follow Christ's example - 1 Peter 2:21; & 1 Peter 4:12-16.
Trailblazer,
Keep it up!
To all premillers:
Let you know, all amillers are posttribbers, because they believe that the Church must go through much tribulations according Acts 14:22, and also, all amillers believe there is the only ONE future coming of Christ at the end of the world/age. Very simple and plain.
Not only amillers are posttribbers. Also, more than 200 years ago, all premillers were posttribbers. During 17th and 18th Century, nearly all Christians in America were postmill/amill. None of them were premill. Didn't you know that?
Till in the mid to late of 19th Century, John N. Darby visited America, and he spread his new teaching of dispensationalism & pretribulationism. Many Christians in America begun to adopt Darby's teaching. Premillennialism become popular among churches in America at the dawn of the 20th Century(turn of the 20th century-early 1900's) to today.
John N. Darby was the Father of Dispensationalism.
Many already gone to follow Darby's teaching instead follow what the Bible teaching. I rather follow what the Bible saying than what men saying according to Colossians 2:8.
In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen! -
DeafPostTrib'
By jove, I think they're all hiding in the caves! Must have 'em stumped! Ya think?
:D -
Speaking of Caves -
Revelation 6:12-17 (KJV1611):
And I beheld when he had opened the sixt seale, and loe, there was a great earthquake, and the Sunne became blacke as sackecloth of haire, and the Moone became as blood.
Rev 6:13 And the starres of heauen fell vnto the earth, euen as a figge tree casteth her vntimely figs when she is shaken of a mighty winde.
Rev 6:14 And the heauen departed as a scrowle when it is rolled together, and euery mountaine and Island were moued out of their places.
Rev 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chiefe captaines, and the mighty men, and euery bondman, and euery free man, hid themselues in the dennes, and in the rockes of the mountaines,
Rev 6:16 And said to the mountaines and rockes, Fall on vs, and hide vs from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lambe:
Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come, and who shall be able to stand?
Show me in your history books where
about 70AD
every bondman and every freeman hid in caves
and knew God's wrath had come. Sources
from 2 of the following three will work
nicely:
1. Native American sources
2. Chineese or Japaneese source
3. Sub-Sarahan Africa source -
Where's DD? I thought for sure he'd have swooped back in here to blast us!
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And there is for sure no way i can
ever shine up to his example :D -
Charles,
Actually, it was WATCHMAN'S post that I was responding to on those 7 points that he challenged me on so I expect will be around eventually. He didn't seem like the type that would avoid it. -
to all premill/pretrib ,
do you have problem with rev 20:1-4 ?
deaf posttrib preach it amem you done a excellent post.
traibazler well done keep it up study hard. -
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I always use Revelation 20:4 to show
the pretribulation Rapture/resurreciton
for that verse shows the TWO groups which
are raptured/resurrected in the TWO
phases of the SECOND COMING. "First" does
not mean "one and only one" -- never has,
never will. The Greek word "prōtos" does not
mean "one and only one" -- never has, never
will. -
Thank you brother trailblazer for the lengthy response. It was pretty well what I expected, knowing, at least basically, what a-mill's believe.I am not sure that I can give a worthy rebuttal here.
The centerpiece, if I may call it that, of our disagreement, is just what is meant by "great tribulation."
Now, I will grant you that all of the persecutions, troubles and trials (even to the point of martydom) that Christians have endured through this age can, and in fact, is called tribulations.
I would like, once more, to look at the Savior's words in Mt. 24: 21-22:
"For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect's sake those days will be shortened."
Now that is in the NKJV, but comparing other versions they read (the NIV does call it distress) pretty well the same. It is worthwhile to note here the reading in the NASB, which is renowned for being literal, it renders it: "a great tribulation." A: one, singular. But I will not harp on one included letter (A), but the total exclusion in the narrative of another letter (S) is worth pointing out. Certainly, a believer has more than one troublesome event in their lives. The Lord did not say: "For then you will have tribulations." No, it was, "For then there will be great tribulation..." Now, does that great tribulation concern believers (you would say the Church here) only? No, for, again the Lord says quite plainly: "And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved;"
No flesh left at all. "...unless those days were shortened..." what days? The Church age? The first century? It must be a period where "...those days were shortened..."
But let us go on. Brother Ed pointed out a time where people, "...hid themselves in the dennes..."
(KJV 1611).
But this is only one verse, one event, that, it occurs to me at least, the a-mill's position does not explain. There are many others. By no means enclusive:
When was there ever a time when no one could buy or sell, unless they had a certain mark?
When was there ever anyone who could display great signs and wonders, even making fire come down from heaven?
When was there ever anyone who sat in the temple of God, claiming that he is god?
When was there ever anyone taken alive and cast into the lake of fire?
Well, on and on I could go, but little point in that.
In short, I am a premill. It is not just because it is what I was taught. I am a premill because it, scriptually, makes the most sense, the pieces fit. Also, it does not concern me in the least who else happens to believe the same way. If it is a similar belief to Hal Lindsey (sp?), so be it. -
WATCHMAN
Yes, my post was lengthy but I had to do it in order to answer your main point of the Olivet Discours - that is that the "elect"/Christians do not go through the "Great Tribulation." I made that as point on page 16 and had to finish it on page 17 of this thread.
Perhaps you missed page 16 where I think I did answer that question quite well as you made no mention of the Olivet Discourse presentation.
I went to great lengths to show that at each stage the elect were still here and that no specific verse ever showed where they had been "taken out."
In the end I also spoke of Rev's Great Tribulation and think I did answer your points quite well but you seemed to ignore my counter points.
You speak as though because the "thought that the elect goes through the tribulation" is not a "new" idea you were expecting to see a whole new perspective. I think some of it was new as not very many ever see in Matt. 24:30 that there are two groups of people on earth at the time of the Second Coming where each see His appearing in two different ways. I think that was worthy of addressing also.
I took quite pains to address each one of your views and yet I don't feel that my post, even though lengthy, was given the same consideration before moving onto another detour. My point is that if the elect ARE here as I believe was shown that they are, then the rest is irrelevant. -
ed edward,
rev 20:4 is talking about who refuse or take thier mark of the beast all christian will be beheaded for refuse or worship and will regin with Jesus christ for enternal life.
rev 20:5-6 for frist resurrection at second coming of christ all have appoitmnet with last day judgement hebrew 9:27, 1 cor 15:50-53, 2 cor 5:6-10, I thess 4:15-17.
John 6:40,44,54 is refer to last day fit with rev 20:5-6.
brumleyj
amem -
trailblazer, thanks for the reply. I did not mean to avoid any point on your post, but I was concentrating on the center point, that there will, indeed, be a, yet future great tribulation.
As to the Chuch at this point. I wanted to establish that this great tribulation is the judgement of God. The Church has "no condemnation" and as such, could not go through this judgement period.
You are equating them (in the passage you mentioned) that came out of great tribulation as being (at least some of them) as the Church.
In Rev. 2&3 you see Church, Church, Church. After 4:1: no mention of the Chuch-at all. There is no mention in the passages you mentioned as them being associated with the Church, Christ body, or any such term as the Chuch is usually refered to.
Have to go, more later, sorry. -
Watchman: "As to the Chuch at this point. I wanted
to establish that this great tribulation is the judgement
of God. The Church has "no condemnation" and as such,
could not go through this judgement period."
Amen, Brother Watchman -- Preach it! -
Brumleyj: "John 6:40,44,54 is refer to last day fit with rev 20:5-6."
Actually Revelation 20:5-6 doesn't mention "last day".
Of course, the "1,000 years" is mentioned.
2 Peter 3:8 & 3:10 show those 1,000 years as
"the Day of the Lord". But Rev 20:5-6 nor
2 Peter 3:8 & 3:10 show "the Day of the Lord"
as the "last day".
Consider "I will raise him up at the last day".
Let it be the definition of "last day".
"Last day" refers to the day God resurrects those
who believe in Jesus for salvation.
That resurrection of the saved takes plase at
the last day of the Church Age (AKA: Gentile Age,
Age of Grace) at the pretribulation rapture/resurrection.
So the day of the pretribulation rapture/resurrections
(the 7-year-day of the Tribulation period) is the
LAST DAY. -
ed edwards,
2 Peter 3:10 is refering to Matthew 24:42-44,Luke 12:39-40,1 Thess 5:2-4, Rev 3:3, Rev 16:15-16.
2 peter 3:8 is refering to Ps 90:4 both scripture are fit together. compare to Lord's mind is shorter compare to human's mind is longer day. saints are waiting so long time since creation to present and wait for Jesus return in last day. to Jesus Christ as one day as thousand year.
Rev 22:13 Jesus is begining to the end.
Hebrew 13:8 Jesus Christ is remian same never change since creation to now
brumleyj
amem -
WATCHMAN,
I’ve had enough time now to go over your original post in depth to answer each point more clearly from beginning to end and have tried to address each one of your points that you laid out in your first and last post. I have highlighted those portions as I went along.
Now, what I don’t understand is this; why is it that it seems that dispensationalists can only see ONE aspect of Jesus’ prophecy in Matthew 24? Why would THE Prophet of all prophets be prophesying any differently here than with Adam and Eve? Especially, when he was answering their question about what they were to expect ahead of them. In his infinite wisdom, he also had it contain instruction for all Christians after 70 a.d. Jesus wanted them to be able to look back at the destruction of Jerusalem as their third example of confirming the fact that the latter destruction of the end of the world would end in fire? Thus, we have Noah and the flood, then Lot and Sodom, and lastly the remnant of apostles and believers out of the destruction of Jerusalem. This is why Jesus referred back to those two previous examples as seen best in Luke 17. With the addition of Matthew 24, all three pictures are there for warnings for all Christians of all time – up until their future fulfillments.
So, with that in mind, the account of the immediate aspect of fulfillment, as reported in Josephus’ History of the Wars of the Jews’ concerning the destruction of Jerusalem, 70 a.d. most definitely qualifies as the literal fulfillment of it. Truly, nothing like that had ever been recorded in the history books up until that point….
To continue on with your concerns of verses 21-22, you might say, “Ok, so Jerusalem 70 a.d. might qualify as a Great Tribulation, but what about the “…nor ever shall be?” You might say that 6,000,000 Jews during the Holocaust would make that figure look rather miniscule indeed, and therefore it must be future, but the answer to that question would immediately follow.
2) In addition to this, as I said above concerning the flood and Sodom and Gomorrah, it was God’s wrath upon the ungodly just as it was God’s wrath upon ungodly Jerusalem. Had he completely and in its entirety, poured out His wrath upon Jerusalem and “all ungodly flesh”, He essentially would have been bringing the world to a close at that time by destroying all mankind and the gospel age very short indeed.
And that’s primarily why you can have a Great Tribulation of 70 a.d. AND a Great Tribulation with the Christians going through their Great Tribulation prior to the Second Coming of Christ visibly coming in the clouds with both the just and the unjust present going through it.
(quoting MH)---“…It is usual in the prophetical style to speak of things great and certain as near and just at hand, only to express the greatness and certainty of them. …The tribulation of those days includes not only the destruction of Jerusalem, but all the other tribulations which the church must pass through; not only its share in the calamities of the nations, but the tribulations peculiar to itself; while the nations are torn with wars, and the church with schisms, delusions, and persecutions, we cannot say that the tribulation of those days is over; the whole state of the church on earth is militant, we must count upon that; but when the church's tribulation is over, her warfare accomplished, and what is behind of the sufferings of Christ filled up, then look for the end.”(end quote)
In addition to this, I listed all of the verses in the NT that had the word “tribulation” in them and it show that Christians do go through “great tribulations” indeed! But, as to the “Great Tribulation” of Revelation? Keep reading.
(The response to your last post is continued on my next post following this one)
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WATCHMAN,
I’ve had enough time now to go over your original post in depth to answer each point more clearly from beginning to end and have tried to address each one of your points that you laid out in your first and last post. I have highlighted those portions as I went along.
Now, what I don’t understand is this; why is it that it seems that dispensationalists can only see ONE aspect of Jesus’ prophecy in Matthew 24? Why would THE Prophet of all prophets be prophesying any differently here than with Adam and Eve? Especially, when he was answering their question about what they were to expect ahead of them. In his infinite wisdom, he also had it contain instruction for all Christians after 70 a.d. Jesus wanted them to be able to look back at the destruction of Jerusalem as their third example of confirming the fact that the latter destruction of the end of the world would end in fire? Thus, we have Noah and the flood, then Lot and Sodom, and lastly the remnant of apostles and believers out of the destruction of Jerusalem. This is why Jesus referred back to those two previous examples as seen best in Luke 17. With the addition of Matthew 24, all three pictures are there for warnings for all Christians of all time – up until their future fulfillments.
So, with that in mind, the account of the immediate aspect of fulfillment, as reported in Josephus’ History of the Wars of the Jews’ concerning the destruction of Jerusalem, 70 a.d. most definitely qualifies as the literal fulfillment of it. Truly, nothing like that had ever been recorded in the history books up until that point….
To continue on with your concerns of verses 21-22, you might say, “Ok, so Jerusalem 70 a.d. might qualify as a Great Tribulation, but what about the “…nor ever shall be?” You might say that 6,000,000 Jews during the Holocaust would make that figure look rather miniscule indeed, and therefore it must be future, but the answer to that question would immediately follow.
2) In addition to this, as I said above concerning the flood and Sodom and Gomorrah, it was God’s wrath upon the ungodly just as it was God’s wrath upon ungodly Jerusalem. Had he completely and in its entirety, poured out His wrath upon Jerusalem and “all ungodly flesh”, He essentially would have been bringing the world to a close at that time by destroying all mankind and the gospel age very short indeed.
And that’s primarily why you can have a Great Tribulation of 70 a.d. AND a Great Tribulation with the Christians going through their Great Tribulation prior to the Second Coming of Christ visibly coming in the clouds with both the just and the unjust present going through it.
(quoting MH)---“…It is usual in the prophetical style to speak of things great and certain as near and just at hand, only to express the greatness and certainty of them. …The tribulation of those days includes not only the destruction of Jerusalem, but all the other tribulations which the church must pass through; not only its share in the calamities of the nations, but the tribulations peculiar to itself; while the nations are torn with wars, and the church with schisms, delusions, and persecutions, we cannot say that the tribulation of those days is over; the whole state of the church on earth is militant, we must count upon that; but when the church's tribulation is over, her warfare accomplished, and what is behind of the sufferings of Christ filled up, then look for the end.”(end quote)
In addition to this, I listed all of the verses in the NT that had the word “tribulation” in them and it show that Christians do go through “great tribulations” indeed! But, as to the “Great Tribulation” of Revelation? Keep reading.
(TO BE CONTINUED ON THE NEXT POST) -
(a continuation of the above thought)
(RESPONSE TO WATCHMAN’S LAST POST)
Now, this is the portion of your last post that I would like to address as this answers the other points in it also.
Now, what about the “Great Tribulation” in Revelations? You say the “believers” don’t go through the Great Tribulation in Revelations? Well, then you have to exclude these verses in Revelation then.
Next is Rev. 7:9-17 but only to the references of “the white robed saints.”
You say this as your conclusion; “I am a premill because it, scripturally, makes the most sense, the pieces fit.”[/quote]
But I say; Once again, we are not to “think first about what makes sense to us” in our faulty human minds and then go to scripture for verification of it. It is the first downfall of all faulty religions.
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