You might want to read more carefully... we are in agreement.
The Sabbath was not Changed
Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by BobRyan, Jun 29, 2013.
Page 4 of 15
-
-
Gerhard Ebersoehn Active MemberSite Supporter
It is a full untruth.
Now therefore indeed correct, that the LORD GOD never changed, as it was meant God gave Himself to only Israel, for He covenanted Himself forever in covenant with Israel only and is still in Covenant with only Israel.
But the Israel of God is not <the Jewish peoples>, for God’s Israel is from all peoples!
Exactly the same with “the day The Seventh Day Sabbath OF THE LORD GOD”!
Only question is, are YOU of God’s Israel?
Then the Seventh Day Sabbath OF THE LORD GOD is also for you.
But it’s strange you don’t want the Sabbath OF THE LORD GOD; you want your own—your Sunday for to worship.
Then have it! Only don’t say it is the LORD GOD’S day for to worship Him; because it is not!
-
The Biblicist Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
The Moral law is eternal but its administration under the Old Covenant is abolished.
Under the New Covenant, the moral law is written upon the new heart IN PRINCIPLE FORM ONLY = love. That is, the new heart is motivated to glorify God in thoughts, words and actions and love others as yourself.
The Sabbath law is applied under the New Covenant on the first day of the week as anticipated under the Messianic feasts sabbaths (Lev. 23), and messianic prophecies (Psa. 118:24; Acts 4:10). -
Gerhard Ebersoehn Active MemberSite Supporter
Everything you say between
<This text> .... and ... <The Sabbath law is applied under the New Covenant on the first day of the week as anticipated under the Messianic feasts sabbaths (Lev. 23), and messianic prophecies (Psa. 118:24; Acts 4:10)>, is true.
But not all is true what you say,
<This text>, Colossians 2 above, has NO bearing whatsoever on
<… the Old Covenant application of the ten commandments with ceremonial and civil applications> or with <the WHOLE COVENANT with ALL OF ITS LAWS (moral, ceremonial, civil) … completely abolished AS A COVENANT keeping bservance.>
<This text>, Colossians 2, speaks for itself and on to what it applies.
Not all what you say,
<Under the New Covenant, the moral law is written upon the new heart IN PRINCIPLE FORM ONLY = love. That is, the new heart is motivated to glorify God in thoughts, words and actions and love others as yourself>, is true
because it was EQUALLY true in the Old Dispensation or Old Ministration.
By the way there is no such thing as <the Old Covenant> of God's! 'The Old Covenant' has always been the 'covenant' MAN undertook with God.
And this,
<The Sabbath law is applied under the New Covenant on the first day of the week as anticipated under the Messianic feasts sabbaths (Lev. 23), and messianic prophecies (Psa. 118:24; Acts 4:10)>,
purely are your own arrogations.
Have you ever paid attention to certain things that really were <anticipated under the Messianic feasts sabbaths (Lev. 23), and messianic prophecies>, like Jesus' BONE-Day of his Burial?
No, you never have.
Well, Jesus' BONE-Day-Burial DESTROYS every vain notion ever so assuming of yours here.
-
The Sabbath - (also called the holy Day of the Lord Is 58:13 and in Mark 2:28 Christ is Lord of the Sabbath).
And the Friday - the preparation day - the day before the Sabbath.
(there is no text NT or OT saying that week-day 1 is either Lord's Day or Sabbath, or the Holy Day of the Lord).
But for the Baptist Confession of Faith - the 4th Commandment Sabbath - is said to remain from the days of Adam - to this very day, though they accept the extra-biblical change attempted by man - made to God's fourth commandment after the cross -
in Christ,
Bob -
and of
"Love God with all your heart" Deut 6:5.
The lost can not obey the moral law of God - so well that they become saved.
in Christ,
Bob -
The Biblicist Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
-
While it is true that the moral law of God (including the ten commandments) is the law that defines sin (1John 3:4 ) even in the NT - it is not true that the moral law of God was nailed to the cross.
A point that even the Baptist Confession of Faith seems to get straight.
The handwriting is in fact the sentence written against us - the wages of our sins - the debt owed - this is what is paid at the cross.
For the sinner to survive either the Law of God must be abolished - or if it is to be upheld - then it's demands must be met - thus establishing the Law - and paying the debt owed according to the Law of God.
The debt is paid by Christ - at the cross - and it is this debt - that consists of handwriting - against us - in the books of record - defining the debt owed in each case. The second death.
It is a "certificate of debt" that is paid at the cross - it is not the Law of God being destroyed.
NASB Col 2 -
14 having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. -
Making stuff up may be the only way to bend the 4th commandment so that it speaks of another day - but Jesus already addressed that idea in Mark 7:6-13 saying that editing/downsizing/side-stepping the Commandments of God - does not work.
However - a point for all to note - so far I thought Biblicist was at war against God's Sabbath commandment - are you now claiming to keep the Sabbath Commandment? the fourth commandment? (though edited-bent-wrenched to point to week-day 1??)
in Christ,
Bob -
The Biblicist Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
In regard to justification they believed the Law was abolished and played absolutely no role in justification of the believer. In regard to a "rule of life" or righteous standard they believed the moral law is eternal. If Ryan says otherwise he is perverting their words and meaning.
NASB Col 2 -
14 having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. [/QUOTE] -
The Biblicist Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
Hence, the Sabbath law can be applied and is applied by God to different "yom" than the seventh yom "of the week (Lev. 23). It is applied to a different "yom" than a twenty-four hour period "yom" (Lev. 25). It is applied outside of a "week" of yom whether 24 hour or longer period (1st, 8th, 15th, 22nd, 50th).
In the Messianic feasts the Sabbath law is consistently applied to the first "yom" of the the week 24 hour and longer period as that period commemorates a BETTER creation and a BETTER work of redemption than did the Sabbath "yom" under the Old Covenant. -
Originally Posted by BobRyan
There is not a single text in all of scripture saying that the 4th commandment is to be edited/altered/changed to point to another day - other than the 7th day. Not Ps 118, not Acts 3 and certainly not Lev 23.
Making stuff up may be the only way to bend the 4th commandment so that it speaks of another day - but Jesus already addressed that idea in Mark 7:6-13 saying that editing/downsizing/side-stepping the Commandments of God - does not work.
However - a point for all to note - so far I thought Biblicist was at war against God's Sabbath commandment - are you now claiming to keep the Sabbath Commandment? the fourth commandment? (though edited-bent-wrenched to point to week-day 1??)
8 “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.
9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work,
10 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates.
11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.
Recall that even the Baptist Confession of Faith admits that it is Gen 2:3 that establishes the 4th commandment.
It cannot be interpreted to contradict God's own use and application of Sabbath law.
You need to note that point.
In Lev 23 the text starts off with the weekly Sabbath and then mentions annual holy days, feasts, Sabbaths. Obviously none of them change/alter/edit the fourth commandment as given by God as we see all of them listed.
As God says in Exodus 16 "tomorrow is THE Sabbath"
Obviously.
in Christ,
Bob -
The Biblicist Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
You did well not to quote the text while making stuff up.
8 “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.
9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work,
10 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates.
11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.
Recall that even the Baptist Confession of Faith admits that it is Gen 2:3 that establishes the 4th commandment.
It cannot be interpreted to contradict God's own use and application of Sabbath law.
You need to note that point.
In Lev 23 various annual Sabbaths are listed - not ONE of the annual Sabbaths are a replacement or alternative or take-your-pick of the actual 4th commandment nor can they be used to bend-wrench the 4th commandment so as to make it point to something that is not the 7th day.
In Lev 23 the text starts off with the weekly Sabbath and then mentions annual holy days, feasts, Sabbaths. Obviously none of them change/alter/edit the fourth commandment as given by God as we see all of them listed.
As God says in Exodus 16 "tomorrow is THE Sabbath"
Obviously.
in Christ,
Bob[/QUOTE] -
The Biblicist Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
Your restrictive interpetation of the Sabbath law condemns God's own application and use of it to greater periods than 24 hours (Gen. 2:4; Lev. 23,25). Your restrictive interpetation ADDS TO SCRIPTURE what is not there. There is no "of the week" found in the Sabbath Law ANYWHERE in Scripture. It is merely the priniciple of six working "yom" followed and preceded by a "seventh" "yom" of rest. The "yom" could be a 24 hour period (Gen. 2:3) or it could be a month, six years or forty-nine year period. This pattern of seven could be started ANYWHERE in the calendar as you admit to the yearly calendar where it does not fall most of the time on the seventh day "of the week" in Leviticus 23 or Leviticus 24. Your strict limited interpetation of the Sabbath Law will not fit these applications but contradict them. However, my interpretation FITS every use that God applies the Sabbath Law even when it is applied by Jews to the seventh day "of the week." There is nothing wrong with applying it to the seventh day "of the week" unless you restrict it to that then it is wrong because it violates the Biblical principle and application of the Sabbath Law. -
The Biblicist Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
Let me make this as clear as I can.
1. You will NEVER find the words "of the week" in any account of the creation Sabbath law anywhere in Scripture - NEVER!
2. SDA and other Saturdarians use logical inference to justify restricting the Sabbath law to the seventh day "of the week." There rationale goes something like this. Our week is based upon the first seven days of creation, therefore, since the seventh day in creation is the Sabbath it follows that the Sabbath is the seventh day "of the week." This is faulty logic as I will point out shortly.
3. The Sabbath day Law PERMITS such an application but cannot be restricted to such an application without self-contradiction.
4. What we have in Genesis 1-2 is a PATTERN of seven days. Six days preceding the seventh day Sabbath. This PATTERN can be abitrarily inserted at any place within any human calendar by God and made permenant as it is in Leviticus 23 where it does not fall on the seventh day "of the week."
5. Furthermore, the Hebrew "yom" is used in direct connection with God's work of creation in TWO different senses. It is used to describe 24 hour periods (Gen. 2:3) but it is also used to decribe the whole period of HIs creative work that covers more than 24 hours (Gen. 2:4).
6. Likewise, in Leviticus 23-25 God applies the Sabbath law to BOTH types of "yom" (literal 24 hour periods and periods longer than 24 hours = month, years and perhaps even millenniums (Lev. 25; 2 Pet. 3:8).
7. It is not wrong for the Sabbath to be applied to the seventh day "of the week" but it is wrong to demand it is restricted to such as that restriction has no Biblical basis and contradicts God's own use and application of the Sabbath Law.
8. It is now wrong to apply it to the seventh day "of the week" as it has been applied by God to the first day "of the week" first by type in the Messianic feasts of Lev. 23 and Lev. 25 and by Messianic prophecy (Psa. 118:20-24 with Acts 4:10-11; Mk. 16:9; heb. 4:2-11) and by Messianic example (Jn. 20; Acts 20:7; 1 Cor. 16:1-2; Rev. 1:10) and by historic custom consistenly after the aposolic age right up to BEFORE Constantine.
9. The "first day of the week" is preceded by six working days, making the "first day of the week" the seventh day Sabbath in that PATTERN of seven.
10. The permenant application to the "first day of the week" is a BETTER Sabbath day observance because it commemorates the greater and finished work of redemption wiht the resurrection of Christ and a BETTER sinless creation of a new heaven and earth to come that begins in the EIGHTH and eternal age to come.
11. It is BETTER because it is without all the ceremonial laws and prohibitions under the Mosaic legislation.
12. It is BETTER because it is entered spritiually right now by faith in the gospel (Heb. 4:2-4) but will be entered into by body and soul in the new heaven and earth to come (Heb. 4:11, 14).
13. It is BETTER because it commemorates a GREATER and BETTER work than the now sin cursed creation. -
The consistent theme in Gen 2:3 and Exodus 20:8-11 as referenced by the Baptist Confession of Faith -- and also Lev 23 - is that
1. God is the one that decides if a day will be honored as a holy day of worship to God 2. He is the one that blesses and sanctifies and selects the day such that mankind is obligated to honor it.
3. God does not edit the day selected.
And in Mark 7 God condemns the idea of religious leaders editing/changing/setting-aside even one of His Commandments.
6 He answered and said to them, “Well did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written:
‘This people honors Me with their lips,
But their heart is far from Me.
7 And in vain they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’
8 For laying aside the commandment of God, you hold the tradition of men —the washing of pitchers and cups, and many other such things you do.”
9 He said to them, “All too well you reject the commandment of God, that you may keep your tradition.
10 For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.’
11 But you say, ‘If a man says to his father or mother, “Whatever profit you might have received from me is Corban”—’ (that is, a gift to God), 12 then you no longer let him do anything for his father or his mother,
13 making the word of God of no effect through your tradition which you have handed down. And many such things you do.”
====================================================
THE FOURTH Commandment - as God gave it in stone - not as man would like to have edited it.
Exodus 20
8 “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.
9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work,
10 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates.
11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.
1. Blessed not merely the "idea of a Sabbath" but specifically "THE Sabbath DAY" itself.
2. "The seventh day IS THE Sabbath of the Lord your God" - not "The First DAY is the Sabbath of the Lord your God" nor even "any day you select out of seven is the Sabbath of the Lord your God"
Mark 7 - 13 making the word of God of no effect through your tradition which you have handed down. And many such things you do.”
Recall that even the Baptist Confession of Faith admits that it is Gen 2:3 that establishes the 4th commandment. -
How sad that your sacrifice-all to edit the Word of God in favor of week day 1 - should go to such lengths.
How instructive then that NO text in the Bible says "FIRST DAY is the Sabbath of the Lord your God - then work for six days" as the weekly Sabbath commandment.
in Christ,
Bob -
All mankind - even the Baptist Confession of Faith - admit that the 4th Commandment - as given in the TEN Commandments is for the weekly Sabbath and not any other. The OTHER Sabbaths given in Lev 23 are not more 4th commandments - they are OTHER Sabbaths and cannot be conflated into the 4th commandment.
Each stands on its own - having its own origin and speaking to the events specific to the type of Sabbath that it is.
Obviously.
So obvious - that the Baptist Confession of Faith distinguishes between the ceremonial annual Sabbaths - vs the moral law of God - the TEN Commandments and the still-valid weekly Sabbath.
in Christ,
Bob -
-
The Biblicist said: ↑10. The permenant application to the "first day of the week" is a BETTER Sabbath day observance because it commemorates the greater and finished work of redemption wiht the resurrection of Christ and a BETTER sinless creation of a new heaven and earth to come that begins in the EIGHTH and eternal age to come.
11. It is BETTER because it is without all the ceremonial laws and prohibitions under the Mosaic legislation.
12. It is BETTER because it is entered spritiually right now by faith in the gospel (Heb. 4:2-4) but will be entered into by body and soul in the new heaven and earth to come (Heb. 4:11, 14).
13. It is BETTER because it commemorates a GREATER and BETTER work than the now sin cursed creation.Click to expand...
1. Even the Baptist Confession of Faith affirms that the TEN Commandments with the FOURTH Commandment as God gave it - in Eden is moral law - not ceremonial law.
2. Christ already condemned the idea of man made upstaging of the Commandments of God in Mark 7.
Mark 7 God condemns the idea of religious leaders editing/changing/setting-aside even one of His Commandments.
6 He answered and said to them, “Well did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written:
‘This people honors Me with their lips,
But their heart is far from Me.
7 And in vain they worship Me, Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’
8 For laying aside the commandment of God, you hold the tradition of men —the washing of pitchers and cups, and many other such things you do.”
9 He said to them, “All too well you reject the commandment of God, that you may keep your tradition.
10 For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.’
11 But you say, ‘If a man says to his father or mother, “Whatever profit you might have received from me is Corban”—’ (that is, a gift to God), 12 then you no longer let him do anything for his father or his mother,
13 making the word of God of no effect through your tradition which you have handed down. And many such things you do.”
An example of this is found here
The Biblicist said: ↑8. It is now wrong to apply it to the seventh day "of the week" as it has been applied by God to the first day "of the week" ...
9. The "first day of the week" is preceded by six working days, making the "first day of the week" the seventh day Sabbath in that PATTERN of seven.
10. The permenant application to the "first day of the week" is a BETTER Sabbath day observance because it commemorates the greater and finished work of redemption
13. It is BETTER because it commemorates a GREATER and BETTER work than the now sin cursed creation.Click to expand...
Gen 2:1-3
2 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.
2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.
Ex 16
23 And he said unto them, This is that which the Lord hath said,
Tomorrow is the rest of the holy Sabbath unto the Lord: bake that which ye will bake to day, and seethe that ye will seethe; and that which remaineth over lay up for you to be kept until the morning.
Ex 20
8 “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.
9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work,
10 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates.
11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.
in Christ,
Bob
Page 4 of 15