MY, <Biblical gynastics>? I wasn’t too bad a ‘gymnast’, when I was young. At 45 still could do grand circles and somersaults on the floor. [Very male chauvinistic with no feminist airs.] Never thought I could be considered a <Biblical gynast> …
If my ability <to deny these things> attest to my proficiency as a ‘Biblical gymnast’, then I really feel proud of myself. No thankful for a plain “thus it is written … not, proud of myself, definitely, NO!
In Acts 20:7 “the First Day of the week” is NOT the worship day. The Perfect Participle ‘sunehgmenohn humohn’ DICTATES “The disciples having been assembling together BEFORE for to Eat the Lord’s Supper, on the First Day of the week having been assembling together STILL, Paul discussed matters with them …” Sabbath’s Lord Supper is presupposed.
In 1Corinthians 15-16, Paul wrote his sermon as if he was preaching. And like everywhere he proclaimed the Gospel of Christ he would close his sermon ---e.g., as per 15:58.
Then before the congregation would disperse, Paul would make announcements concerning urgent matters and inform the congregations on his plans for the future – exactly as recorded in chapter 16. Therefore, in chapter 16, Paul tells the believers how they must plan and save up for future collection of charity for the victims of the famine in Judea. He told the Congregations after the Sabbath services, “On the First Day of the week, let everyone of you by himself put aside in store …”. Sabbath’s worship hour is presupposed.
It is amazing you dare contradict so directly the detail contained in 15:58 to 16:3. It is wholly unfounded your claim, <<1 Cor. 16:1-2 refers to the first day of the week as a GENERAL REFERENCE POINT for the Corinthians as the day when they meet just as in Acts 20:7.>>
Shame on you! For Paul ordered “Upon the First Day of the week [NOT on the Sabbath Day!] let EVERYONE of you by HIMSELF, STORE, as God give prosperity. That there won’t be ingathering (only) when I will come … I will SEND to bring your liberality.”
All as it were from the pulpit on Sabbath Day announced “concerning the collection” on an UNKNOWN FUTURE date, for which every individual at his own house had to work out his own prosperity and accordingly had to store his contribution in readiness for when Paul’s delegates may arrive to collect everyone’s at his own home. NO Sunday service charity collection is supposed; it’s a complete untruth and a shame for the hawkers in its wares.
The Sabbath was not Changed
Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by BobRyan, Jun 29, 2013.
Page 8 of 15
-
Gerhard Ebersoehn Active MemberSite Supporter
-
Gerhard Ebersoehn Active MemberSite Supporter
If I may intrude …
The impression I as an 'out-stander' get from this challenge to poor old Bob, is that it is no challenge to him as Guppie wants him to believe.
My impression is Gup is in conversation with himself; and if not with himself, in conversation between himself and supposedly God.
Well, my advice to you Gup?
Wait for resurrection day.
I personally would not wait for judgment day; that is far too risky. Especially with so much unequivocal affirmative witness in favour of the "Sabbath Day's Rest still valid for the People of God SINCE JESUS GAVE THEM REST"!
You are of the People of God, aren't you, Gup?
.
-
If his motivation for following the 4th commandment and observing sabbaths is to avoid damnation, I would say he's missing the mark. Salvation and justification are an inheritance for those who qualify as sons of God through faith in Jesus Christ. Since it is an inheritance, it is not something that can be gained or lost by our works. God promised Abraham that all of his spiritual descendants would inherit this promise.
However, if his motivation for keeping the sabbath day is his love for God, and the things of God I would let him be, albeit with an encouragement not to inflict that on others.
Col 2:16 Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day—
17 things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ.
I'm not exactly sure what "people of God" are. Is there a scripture that uses that phrase? I am a child of God - a joint heir with a Christ.... a believer in the gospel of Jesus Christ - the spiritual seed of Abraham... these are Biblical terms that I can affirm. -
The Biblicist Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
Well, can't help but like you GE but your Sabbath position is simply wrong. Traos like Corinth was a predominantly Gentile church and "evening" was Roman reckoning of Sunday evening rather than the Jewish reckoning. They had been gathered since Sunday Morning and continued right on into the evening and did not leave until Monday morning. Sunday morning they gathered for the Lord's Supper and continued meeting throughout the day as the Lord's Day or the day of worship.
Neither was the first epistle of Corinthians or the Second written to be a sermon with closing remarks. It was a letter that addressed specific problems and offerings for the poor in Jerualem was one of them. Paul merely declared the regular day of worship when they gathered together as in Acts 20:7 to be also the day offerings were brought into the "store" house. -
You asked and I gave you my response - showing that it fits perfectly with scripture.
I thought you were up on that.
Or do you hold to some sort of implied doctrine that our reasons for obeying God cannot possibly be what is written in scripture on that point??
If so - I have never seen you post that sort of idea before.
1Cor 6 starting with Paul's "Do not be deceivied" comment??
1John 3 starting with John's "do not be deceived" comment??
I prefer to accept what the Bible says - in places like Matt 18 warning us about "Forgiveness revoked".
In Romans 11 telling those who "Stand only by our faith" to fear - "for if He did not spare them - He will not spare you either"
1Cor 9 "I buffet my body and make it my slave LEST after preaching the GOSPEL to others I MYSELF should be disqualified" for it is the goal of Paul in that case to be a "Fellow PARTAKER in the Gospel"
I prefer to take heed when the Bible warns us about "falling from Grace" and being "Severed from Christ" Gal 5:4.
I prefer to listen when the Bible warns us that those who ARE Severed from Christ are then "gathered into bundle to be burned" John 15:1-11.
In my view - accept the Bible is better than clinging to a man-made-tradition about OSAS not matter what the Bible says to the contrary.
in Christ,
Bob -
Ex 20
8 ""Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.
9 "" Sixdays you shall labor and do all your work,
10 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD your God; in it you shall not do any work, you or your son or your daughter, your male or your female servant or your cattle or your sojourner who stays with you.
11 "" For in six days the LORD made theheavens and the earth, the sea and allthat is in them, and rested on the seventh day;therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day andmade it holy.
Is it your claim that God simply slipped up by inserting all that "day of the week" language in the commandment?
Is this a further failure on God's part - to point out a specific day of the week?
[FONT="]Ex 16[/FONT][FONT="]
23 then he said to them, ""This is what the LORD meant: [/FONT]Tomorrow is the Sabbath observance, a holy Sabbath to the LORD. Bake what you will bake and boil what you will boil, and all that is left over put aside to be kept until morning.''
24 So they put it aside until morning, as Moses had ordered, and it did not become foul nor was there any worm in it.
25 Moses said, ""Eat it today, for today is a Sabbath to the LORD; today you will not find it in the field.
26 "" Six days you shall gather it, but on the seventh day, the Sabbath, there will be none.''
27 It came about on the seventh day that some of the people went out to gather, but they found none.
Would it be better to reach for man-made-tradition instead?
The Baptist Confession of Faith - section 19 points to the Gen 2:3 command - given to Adam and Eve - before the fall - as the 4th Commandment - within the TEN Commandments.
Did God simply get that wrong in His Gen 2:3 statement?
in Christ,
Bob -
Your own reference above - points to the fact that from the days of Sinai on the priests were working on Sabbath and that in the context of the Sabbath - it was proper for them to do so.
The idea that the work of the priests at Sinai - was a hint to Israel to go around breaking the Sabbath would be an extreme eisegetical insert.
Even the Westminster Confession of Faith does not allow it.
in Christ,
Bob -
The Biblicist Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
-
Gerhard Ebersoehn Active MemberSite Supporter
-
Gerhard Ebersoehn Active MemberSite Supporter
For certain I myself am of the conviction that application of the 'Sabbath Commandment' and or "the day The Seventh Day Rest-Day of the LORD GOD" is valid, correct and faithful in the cases of Psalm 118 and Revelation 1:10.
But it is unlawful and unfaithful to TRUTH to make the same 'applications' to VAGUE Scriptures like <<Leviticus 23,25>> or IRRELEVANT Scriptures like 1Corinthians 16:2 or Mark 16:9 where ‘application’ IN JESUS CHRIST is out of the question, but actually applies on NATURAL <basis> and <principle> namely that of ‘yearly’ that is to say ‘seasons’ and ‘moons / months’, ‘basis’ and ‘principle’ --- or, in the case of Mark 16:9, on the <basis> and <principle> of “a day of the week” : “the First Day-of-the-week”—“first-with REFERENCE TO OR FROM, the Seventh Day Sabbath-Rest-Day or and its <Law> the Fourth Commandment—which pin-points both the First Day as the First Day after the Sabbath, and the Sabbath as the day before the First Day-OF-THE-WEEK.
<ARBITRARY> is WILD; is out of order; is out of control; and is UN-‘REST’-FULL. The day The Seventh Day Rest-Day-Sabbath of the LORD GOD <in principle> is the opposite of such things. -
Gerhard Ebersoehn Active MemberSite Supporter
<<by arbitrary choice - divine choice>>!!
Are you Muslim? an Islamist?
<<if he [God] had added "of the week" then he would have violated His own law in applying it to other days of the week in Levitius 23>>
That is you, Biblicist, AFFIRMING God did NOT <apply it> -- that is, God neither <applied> <the week> nor "the Sabbath" --- neither its <basis> nor its <principle>, <<to other days of the week in Levitius 23>>.
Eventually it had to come out. -
Gerhard Ebersoehn Active MemberSite Supporter
If this …
-
Originally Posted by BobRyan
The Baptist Confession of Faith - section 19 points to the Gen 2:3 command - given to Adam and Eve - before the fall - as the 4th Commandment - within the TEN Commandments.
Did God simply get that wrong in His Gen 2:3 statement?
God did not say in Ex 20 or in Gen 2:3 or in Ex 16 "I am now going to apply the Sabbath Law to the weekly Sabbath of Gen 2 or the Ten Commandments" as you seem to "imagine".
God states His own intent in Ex 20:8-11 without any reference to some other "Sabbath Law" as if he is creating an instance of some other law.
The only way this is a legitimate instance of something else - is that it is an instance of "God's Sovereign choice" and "God making Law".
Thus each Sabbath - whether it is the one that applies to all mankind in Gen 2:3 and Ex 20:8-11 or the annual Sabbaths for Israel in Lev 23 - all are instances of God's Sovereign choice, His commands.
NEVER is it said that Passover or anything else is an instance of Gen 2:3 weekly Sabbath.
(Hint - never debate a bogus idea about instances of base class objects with one who creates instances of actual base class objects for a living)
in Christ,
Bob -
Gerhard Ebersoehn Active MemberSite Supporter
Lekker!
Tell him!
Beautiful!
-
-
I believe that Christ was raised from the dead on the first day of the week - Sunday. (Even GE who differs with me on this point will admit that Sunday is the first day of the week).
Interesting how when someone says "I attend church on the first day of the week - the day that Jesus rose from the dead" - no one responds with "yes but we don't know what day of the week is the first day of the week - so are you going to church on Tuesday? Wednesday? What?"
I keep the original 7th day as God gave it - Saturday.
In Ex 16 God said "tomorrow is the Sabbath".
in Christ,
Bob -
The Biblicist Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
I make a careful distinction between PRINCIPLE and Application. If God would have added "of the week" it would have contradicted his VARIOUS applications to other days of the week. That does not mean the particular application to the seventh day "of the week" is wrong, but is in keeping with his VARIOUS applications of that PRINCIPLE. Now, read it again and carefully notice exactly what I said in both quotes. -
" See, for that the Lord hath given you the sabbath, therefore he giveth you on the sixth day the bread of two days; abide ye every man in his place, let no man go out of his place on the seventh day." Exodus 16:29
As Jews, my family never left the house during Shabbat. -
The Biblicist Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
The seventh day "of the week" is not inconsistent with the sabbath Law as a Principle. It is a reasonable application and from all the evidence it seems that this is how it was applied by God to Israel in the Old Testament. However, the same law is consistent with a change of APPLICATION (not law) to the first day "of the week" in the New Testament since all applications by God are arbitrary as there is nothing sacred about any 24 hour period of time. God can sovereignly apply Sabbath law to the FIXED DATES in the Messianic Feasts which fall on various days "of the week" as He can apply it to the seventh day "of the week" or the first day "of the week" if that is His choice.
-
Gerhard Ebersoehn Active MemberSite Supporter
Page 8 of 15