The Son of God is God the Son?

Hi Carson,

Well, let me see if I can help you out there. Scripture actually commentds Christians for maintaining Tradition.

"I commend you because you remember me in everything and maintain the traditions even as I have delivered them to you. (1 Cor. 11:2)</font>[/QUOTE]Paul did not have the written new testament to leave with the people, so he taught them orally. Thus Paul's teachings to those he writes about were oral teachings, traditions. He subsequently wrote down most if not all of those teachings and added more to them in writing to the other churches as well as the Corinthians. Thus he was commending them for practicing what he preached and for thinking of him and praying for him.

Virtually all of the first part of Genesis is tradition handed down for hundreds of years to Moses who is credited with having them written down. That is afterall how the people were taught from generation to generation in a traditional manner.

Then why is the "blessed virgin" such a large part of the Catholic church? That's right it has been handed down orally as such from generation to generation as the creation story was handed down orally until it became part of the first writings. Now creation is the basis for life for all Bible believers.

And the teachings of the Rosary are 100% biblically sound? What about the "hail Mary's"? and aren't there parts of the rosary 'said to other dead saints'? Scriptures do not tell anyone to call on the dead in the form of prayer. In fact Jesus told us to pray directly to the Father in Heaven. Jesus is afterall one with the Father, meaning that they are the same God. And there is no other mediator or intercessor under heaven but the Son of God. Furthermore, scriptures warn against vain repetition, and citing the Rosary is vain repetition.

Well you see, this depends on which Catholic you talk to. I've been told over the years by various priests that the statuary is there to remind us of the Apostles and the blessed virgin, and to commemorate the great people in the church's history. And when I observed to the priests that people seemed to be praying to these statues, that is standing or kneeling before them in prayer, the response that I got, was "Yes, some people do say their prayers before the statues as an aid, kind of like talking to a person instead of an all powerful, all hearing spirit. Some people simply cannot conceive in their minds what they cannot see". I ask, where is the teaching against doing such?

Far from reality Carson. There are many traditions that become established as divine truth simply by being handed down orally in the form of "old wives tales" etc.

 

I find it most interesting that most Catholics will not admit to 'worshipping' an idol, but yet MILLIONS have made a pilgrimage to the Vatican so that they can 'kiss the toe' of this statue.

Claimed to be Peter, but all it really is is a statue of the pagan god Jupiter, with the name scratched off and Peter put on it.

Look at the toe.



The definition of worship is this:

The reverent love and devotion accorded a deity, an idol, or a sacred object.
The ceremonies, prayers, or other religious forms by which this love is expressed.
Ardent devotion; adoration.

What's worse is that they actually worship a MAN.

I found this pic on the net, it is of a bunch of priests worshipping the Pope.



A picture is worth a thousand words.

And to ensure that after his death he can still be worshipped:



God Bless,
Kelly

 

I've kissed my wife's toe. I even adored her when I did it. I even adored her toe. I don't, and never have, "worshipped" her.

Interesting pick. You'd think the Vatican could afford a nicer truck. ;)

I will admit though, the middle pic with the priests on the floor troubles me, because of verses like Rev 19:10 and similar.

 

So you are saying that you "do accept" that Jesus is "Divine" - is "worshipped as God" is "worshipped as another Person besides the Person of God the Father"

But according to your statement above - although Jesus is God (is divine, is to be worshipped) - is not "as much God as God the Father is God - although as a divine being He is God"?

So in your view "The Word was With God and the Word Was God... and the Word became flesh" is a reference to Jesus - who was God and was WITH God. But He is just not "as much God" as God?

In answer to your question to me - I do believe that the "Holy Spirit is the Third Person of the Godhead".

AS for statements by the SDA Church prior to 1914 ...

So in claiming that Adventists are trinitarian - you are quite correct.

In Christ,

Bob

 

So, kissing the toe of a statue of the one held in highest esteem as "the pre-eminent pope" is not a form of worship? So then it must be more like the Irish kissing the "blarny stone", something one does for 'good luck'. Is this one of those " oral traditions" we've been hearing about?

 

Most Baptist churches I've seen have stone statues that neither breathe nor move--they are called "deacons." :D

 

Do you mean like the Pope?

 

Hi Kelly,

May I point out the silliness of your previous post above (as well as the false witness)?

You wrote, "MILLIONS have made a pilgrimage to the Vatican so that they can 'kiss the toe' of this statue."

People actually make a pilgrimmage to St. Peter's Basilica for the sake of St. Peter's Basilica as well as taking the Scavi Tour beneath the main altar, where St. Peter's tomb was discovered by Antonio Ferrua in the 1940's, not to "kiss the toe" of this statue, which is only one of thousands of objects within this church. Kissing objects is an act of veneration, of giving honor (you know, "respect"). We can show signs of respect with great reverence without "worshipping". Really, it's possible.

Here I am at this same statue in June of 2001, and I only worship God. I'm a real, live Catholic who has really been there and done that, and I can tell you that you are misrepresenting Catholics.



Here's a link to a beautiful photo of the inside of this church, the largest Christian church in the world:

http://www.cycletourist.com/Scenes/St_Peters.html

Claimed to be Peter, but all it really is is a statue of the pagan god Jupiter, with the name scratched off and Peter put on it.

You are incorrect (this seems to be a reoccurring pattern *grin*).

This statue has been erroneously ascribed to the thirteenth century, but in truth dates from the fourth or fifth. This is no adaptation of another statue, but was intended to be a statue of the Prince of the Apostles, hence the "halo" and the "keys".

I found this pic on the net, it is of a bunch of priests worshipping the Pope.

This picture is of an ordination where the men who are being ordained lay prostrate as a sign of total surrender to Jesus Christ. It's a sign of giving your entire body to the service of Christ for the rest of your life as his minister.

Is anyone other than Kelly reading this post? Does anyone see the grave misrepresentation and false witness Kelly is portraying? This is quite sinful.. that is, the false witness you're bearing towards your Catholic brothers and sisters.

Kelly, you have shown all of the signs that you no longer bear good will on this board, which is dangerous for you because it is terribly sinful. I say this out of love, not out of spite, and I will keep you in my prayer. It is my hope that you will come out of this. Your carelessness is borderline scary.

[ July 12, 2003, 10:29 PM: Message edited by: Carson Weber ]

 

Brian,

The love you share with you wife is completely natural, and totally inspired by God!

You are not sinning by adoring your wife, you would actually be sinning if you DIDN'T love her that much! Jesus commended you to love her the same way that He loved the church, all the way to the point of laying down His life.

The people who bow down, and kiss the toe of a stone statue of their 'first' Holy Father, ARE worshipping that statue. They are showing reverence to a rock, which represents a man. They are worshipping the creature, more than the Creator.

Check this out:

"The Pope is not only the representative of Jesus Christ, he is Jesus Christ himself" -Catholic National July 1895.

"We hold upon this earth the place of God Almighty" -Pope Leo XIII

The title "Lord God the Pope" is found within a gloss of Extravagantes of Pope John XXII, title 14, chapter 4

It is idolatry plain and simple.

NOW, if you love your wife more than you love God, then it might be a problem, but I doubt that will ever happen. ;)

God Bless,
Kelly

 

Hi Yelsew,

You wrote, "Do you mean like the Pope?"

I consider it a sin to make fun of individuals with Parkinson's disease, and your comment is lurid, if not egregious.

 

Thanks for clearing that up, Carson. I'm sorry I fell for the assumption of what was going on in that picture, sometimes Baptist bias dies hard. I should have known better.

Why do you presume to know someone's attitude when they do this? Why is kissing my wife's toe, or kissing the ground when you come home from a long trip, not worship while that is?

Also, "showing reverence" as you put it, is not even considered worship in Protestant churches.

 

Hi Brian,

You wrote, "Thanks for clearing that up, Carson. I'm sorry I fell for the assumption of what was going on in that picture, sometimes Baptist bias dies hard. I should have known better."

Thank you for your apology. The problem with Kelly's continual misrepresentation of Catholicism (esp. with the ludicrous misrepresentation involving the ordination photo above) is that it spreads ignorance as well as lies. The best I can do is to serve as a chaperone for the board - to continually say, "You are incorrect. This is untrue. You are bearing false witness." Whether the other person intends to do so or not, I am not the ultimate judge. That is why we have one Judge to whom each of us must answer when we die.

She again misrepresented Catholicism above when she wrote, ""The Pope is not only the representative of Jesus Christ, he is Jesus Christ himself" -Catholic National July 1895."

Catholic National this or that or whatever.. this is not what Catholics believe. The pope is not Jesus Christ. He is Jesus' vicar.

vicar \vi-ker\ n 1 : an administrative deputy 2 : a minister in charge of a church who serves under the authority of another minister vicariate \v-ker-e-et\ n (C) 1994 by Merriam-Webster, Inc.

And this is based upon Biblical passages such as Matthew 16:16-19 and John 21 when Jesus gave Peter charge of the kingdom, the authority to bind and loose, as well as the command to tend the flock of Jesus. Accordingly, the pope is Peter's successor in unbroken historical succession.

[ July 12, 2003, 10:49 PM: Message edited by: Carson Weber ]

 

Greetings Bob,

You said:

So in your view "The Word was With God and the Word Was God... and the Word became flesh" is a reference to Jesus - who was God and was WITH God. But He is just not "as much God" as God?

Ricky: No, that's not my view. He is as much God as is His Father. God the Father did not beget a lesser being - but an equal being - equally divine. God's Son is equal to God by reason of His literal Sonship to Him. Human beings beget equally human offspring, not lesser humans. He is equally divine as is His Father. But He is not and does NOT constitute the one and only true God. The one true God doesn't need His Son to be the one true God. I heard an SDA pastor once say in his sermon that if God weren't a Trinity, he would cease to be God! That's the DUMBEST thing I've ever heard! He believes that God is a "they" consisting of three deities yet he states that if God wasn't triune HE would cease to be God. So much for man's faulty intellectual theological philosophy.

Now, as far as Ellen White is concerned. SDA's make a big boo-boo when they quote her for establishing what is and isn't true doctrine. This is why, notwithstanding the fact that they officially embraced the Trinity doctrine quite recently in 1980, are still thought of as cultish in mentality - because many SDA's, to their shame, instead of going to the Bible for and quoting the Bible to substantiate their beliefs, turn to Ellen White and use her as their source and sadly, as their authority. And what is further exacorbating to their condition is that they don't even understand Ellen White - let alone the Bible! Take the Trinity doctrine for example. SDA's believe that Ellen White was a closet Trinitarian who gradually injected Trinitarian teachings in her writings towards the end of her life. And they believe that precisely because of that which you quoted from her. Here are the facts:

1.)Ellen White never endorsed the Trinity.
2.)Ellen White never even wrote the word "Trinity" in any of her manuscripts.
3.)Her and all of the rest of the SDA pioneers were distinct anti-Trinitarians.
4.)There is not one recorded event in which Ellen White rebuked the pioneers of the SDA movement for teaching anti-Trinitarianism.
5.)She lived with her husband for 35 years, a man who was a determined anti-Trinitarian, who furthermore wrote extensively against the Biblical validity of that doctrine.
6.)There's no record of Ellen White rebuking her husband for teaching anti-Trinitarian error.
7.)Ellen White commended the total UNITY of beliefs among the pioneers and including her husband.
8.)Ellen White wrote that Christ is the literal Son of God "begotten in His express image".
9.)Ellen White never taught that the Holy Spirit is a separate, stand-alone deity. She taught that God's Spirit an "emmanation" of the personal presence and power of God. You'll find that in DA in the chapter on Jesus' baptism.
10.)Ellen White understood that the Son of God shared the Father's Holy Spirit and that His Spirit would repreent HIS personal presence and indwelling within His children.

I'll be glad to provide specific quotes and references later when I have more time to continue this discussion.

God Bless

 

Hi Ricky,

You wrote, "He is as much God as is His Father. God the Father did not beget a lesser being - but an equal being - equally divine."

This would constitute polytheism (The worship of or belief in more than one god) - akin to what the LDS profess.

You wrote, "Ellen White never endorsed the Trinity."

My question is, "So what?" If Ellen White endorsed the Trinity, would it make a difference as to what you believe? Is Ellen White God's special prophet?

 

Hi Carson,

You said:

Warning against false doctrine does not equate with "only Scripture is authoritative".

Ricky: I never said it did. What I said was that Isaiah 8:20 states that any doctrine that goes contrary to God law or the testimony of His Word is darkness - there is no light in it. Right there we are told that God's Word, His testimony is the final authority. Any human ecceliastical pronouncement, whether it be a Pope or lower-ranking prelate, if their oral tradition doesn't gell with God's law and the testimony of His Word, it is darkness. And the Catholic Church's doctrinal arsenal is replete with doctrines and dogmas that go contrary to Scripture and therfore are non-binding upon God's children.

God Bless

 

Hi Ricky,

I asked for you to show me where Scripture says "only Scripture is authoritative". You replied with Isaiah 8:20, and I told you that this does not teach that "only Scripture is authoritative" and you replied with "I never said it did."

Then you didn't answer my question. You're taking our dialogue in circles by failing to answer the question. Please show me where Scripture says "only Scripture is authoritative". If Scripture doesn't say this, then say "Scripture doesn't teach that only Scripture is authoritative" instead of leading me on a wild goose chase.

You wrote, "And the Catholic Church's doctrinal arsenal is replete with doctrines and dogmas that go contrary to Scripture"

You are incorrect. Not a single Catholic doctrine runs contrary to Scripture, and I can give you a whole host of converts to the Catholic Faith who were and/or are Biblical scholars and agree with me.

 

Hi Carson,

You wrote:

You wrote, "He is as much God as is His Father. God the Father did not beget a lesser being - but an equal being - equally divine."

This would constitute polytheism (The worship of or belief in more than one god) - akin to what the LDS profess.

Ricky: No, it wouldn't. Because the Father and the Son are NOT two separate, stand-alone, self-existent Gods There is only ONE LORD God Almighty - and that's the Father. Rather, Trinitarianism is polytheism, for that doctrine acknowledges THREE separate God's - God the Father, "God the Son", and "God the Spirit" - three gods - polytheism - tritheism.

You said:

If Ellen White endorsed the Trinity, would it make a difference as to what you believe?

Ricky: Not a bit! For my authority is solely the Scriptures. But if she did endorse the Trinity, her credibility as a Bible teacher would be null and void in my eyes. About her being a prophet? No, she wasn't a prophet. She herself denied that office. Its the SDA church for some reason that has decided to elevate her to that status.

God Bless

 

Hi Ricky,

You deny that you are professing polytheism, while you simultaneously admit "He is as much God as is His Father. God the Father did not beget a lesser being - but an equal being - equally divine."

You are presenting two gods: one is the Father and one is the Son.

This is polytheism - more than one god.

You are telling me that "the Father and the Son are NOT two separate, stand-alone, self-existent gods" while simultaneously telling me that they aren't identical, yet they both are gods.

You are professing a plurality of gods: 2 total: 1. Father, & 2. Son. You may confess that they aren't separate, stand-alone, self-existent gods. That's fine. But, you're still professing two of them and that's polytheism. Trinitarians don't profess two, three, or four Gods but three persons, (three relations, 2 processions) within one God. Trinitarians are monotheistic. You are confessing polytheism.

Trinitarians believe in one God and one God only. There is one God and there is only one God and there are no other Gods besides this one God who alone is God.

 

Thanks for clearing that up, Carson. I'm sorry I fell for the assumption of what was going on in that picture, sometimes Baptist bias dies hard. I should have known better.

Why do you presume to know someone's attitude when they do this? Why is kissing my wife's toe, or kissing the ground when you come home from a long trip, not worship while that is?

Also, "showing reverence" as you put it, is not even considered worship in Protestant churches. </font>[/QUOTE]That is because the apple doesn't fall far from the tree.

You do the deeds that you were taught by your mother.

God Bless,
Kelly

 

If I said no, would you care?

That's not what the Bible says:
Leviticus 26:1, "Ye shall make you no idols nor graven image, neither rear you up a standing image, neither shall ye set up any image of stone in your land, to bow down unto it: for I am the LORD your God."

So, did you kiss the toe? ;)

The largest Church in the world is the Body of Christ which is not built by brick or stone, or GOLD. With all the starving people in the world is all that Gold necessary?

Actually I am right on target, and unless you care to provide proof that my assertions are incorrect, they stand.

The halo and the keys are both a pagan symbol, the halos that are on your 'holy' statues can be found all over the pagan temples on their 'holy' statues. The keys that Jupiter holds, are nothing more than the keys to heaven and HELL. It is a statue of Jupiter, and if you have been led to believe otherwise you have been lied to.

I stand corrected.

What's this guy doing?

I didn't say anything about my Catholic brothers and sisters!

Those pictures were about the Pope and people worshipping idols. If they are worshipping idols, they aren't my brothers or sisters!

There are those who I consider my brothers and sisters in Christ, because THEY do not fully KNOW that they are in a false system. Those who are sincere are in my prayers, and I hope to spend eternity with them.

I already have. You know now that BECAUSE OF YOU I woke up and am NOW completely out of Babylon. Thanks again for inspiring me to study the Word of God!

There was no carelessness in it Carson, I posted those pictures to warn anyone who reads here to steer as far away as they can from idolatry.

I have never, and never will post anything that is against my Catholic Brothers and Sisters, all those who have encountered me know that in my statements that are about the Catholic Church are not referring to those who are part of the Body of Christ but those who have concocted these heresies, and blasphemous rules!

I will continue to speak out against the Pharisees of today, just as Jesus did.

God Bless,
Kelly