The Tide Shifting Against the Death Penalty

[Bro. Curtis]

Another thing.......

Just in case anyone brings it up, I can show people who have died at the hands of convicted murderers. Hundreds, in & out of jail. We have paid a dear price for not following scripture. How many states have executed innocent people ?

 

[Crabtownboy]

Another thing.......

Just in case anyone brings it up, I can show people who have died at the hands of convicted murderers. Hundreds, in & out of jail. We have paid a dear price for not following scripture. How many states have executed innocent people ?

Most likely every state in the union. All had the death penality for many years before any made capital punishment illegal. Illinois found that they had something like 13 on death row that were proven innocent a few years ago. Other states have found they have innocents on death row.

Read John Grisham's The Innocent Man: Murder and Injustice in a Small Town

Here is a short review of the book:

The story of several men, really, who were wrongfully convicted of murders they did not commit, The Innocent Man is a page-turner. Grisham turned from his usual legal fiction to pen this true-crime novel, and I think he accomplishes the jump to non-fiction pretty well. Sometimes the writing seemed a bit simple, but I think that can be appropriate when presenting facts.

 

[Andy T.]

To be anti-abortion but pro capital punishment is as contridictory as the other way around. If you are pro-life then be pro-life. Don't be pro-life in one area and pro-death in another. It is always interesting to me how many anti-abortion people love the babies, but hate people once they are adults and do not agree with them. Totally a contridiction.

Who hates them? Your posts are becoming as vitriolic and hateful as JustChristian's.

So you see no difference between an innocent baby and a murderer? That's twisted.

And I'll bring this up again, since you didn't/couldn't respond to it the last time CP was discussed. Since it is obviously unjust to put an innocent man to death, isn't it also unjust to life imprison a man for a crime he did not commit? So why have any sentences at all, if we can never be sure? Surely there are men who have life sentences for crimes they did not commit, so why aren't you calling for the abolishment of it?

 

[Andy T.]

So you are for the death penality even though you know that innocent people will die. Why are you not interested in their innocence? Isn't a life sentence also a death sentence?

So you are for life sentences even though you know that innocent people will lose their freedom forever? How shameful.

 

[matt wade]

Nope. Just putting up facts'.......You said he was spared, but he wasn't.

I was specifically referring to his crimes against Christians. He wasn't put to death for that, though, as I pointed out, my carnal nature would have been all for it. He was put to death for other reasons. Those other reasons illustrate the point that governments are very good at deciding who should be executed.

 

[Andy T.]

We agree on that point. Like I said, I'm pro-life. That doesn't mean just unborn children, or born again believers. It means pro-all-life-created-by-God.

Yes, I am so pro-life that when someone destroys and murders one of God's image-bearers, the punishment should fit the crime just as God prescribed in Gen. 9:6. I guess God is not pro-life by your standards.

 

[matt wade]

So you are for life sentences even though you know that innocent people will lose their freedom forever? How shameful.

You are just being argumentative here. You know full well there is a difference. If an innocent person is put to death, there isn't much that can be done about that. If an innocent person is serving a life sentence, certainly things can be done about that.

Anyway, I personally don't want to get into that debate. I'm not concerned whether a person is innocent of the crimes or not. Let's let God be the one who decides when and how people are taken from this life. He might just have some use for convicted criminals, as evidenced with David Berkowitz.

 

[Jim1999]

How do you know the fetus is innocent? When did God confide in you on who is elect and who is rebrobate...I thought you all believed in original sin?? Hmmmm

Cheers,

Jim

 

[Andy T.]

Since we are talking about being consistent in pro-life views, I would like to understand something. Those of you who are anti-CP, because God is the one who should decide when death occurs, then shouldn't you also be 100% completely against all forms of warfare whatsoever? I doubt that you are. When pressed, I'm sure you would admit that it is ok to kill another person in the state of a just war. Or what if you witness someone going on a killing spree and you have the means to take them out? To be consistent, you should not do anything, because God is the one who has to decide, not you.

What utter folly.

 

[THEOLDMAN]

Give it up Matt ! You cannot covince people with your well thought-out reasoning. They are to wrapped up in their own "certitude".

 

[Andy T.]

How do you know the fetus is innocent? When did God confide in you on who is elect and who is rebrobate...I thought you all believed in original sin?? Hmmmm

I'm not talking about innocence before God - theological innocence, if you will. I'm talking about legal innocence before men. A baby has committed no crimes under the law.

And in case you haven't noticed, there are many views on this board on the topic of Original Sin, but such is way off topic.

 

[matt wade]

Since we are talking about being consistent in pro-life views, I would like to understand something. Those of you who are anti-CP, because God is the one who should decide when death occurs, then shouldn't you also be 100% completely against all forms of warfare whatsoever? I doubt that you are. When pressed, I'm sure you would admit that it is ok to kill another person in the state of a just war. Or what if you witness someone going on a killing spree and you have the means to take them out? To be consistent, you should not do anything, because God is the one who has to decide, not you.

What utter folly.

I am against warfare. It's a horrible thing for all sides involved. Are you telling me that you are for warfare? Wouldn't you rather live in a world without it?

As for your question about taking out someone that is on a killing spree, it is an interesting point. I haven't given thought to the specific question, but I will. I will admit that my carnal nature immediately says that I would want to take that person out and stop the killing spree. Does our carnal nature always agree with God's nature? Certainly not.

 

[Andy T.]

Give it up Matt ! You cannot covince people with your well thought-out reasoning. They are to wrapped up in their own "certitude".

Please refrain unless you have something substantive to contribute. BTW, it's ironic that you have just as much certitude for the anti-CP arguments that you accuse me of having for my arguments for CP. IOW, your whole "certitude" quip is circular and self-refuting.

 

[Crabtownboy]

Yes, I am so pro-life that when someone destroys and murders one of God's image-bearers, the punishment should fit the crime just as God prescribed in Gen. 9:6. I guess God is not pro-life by your standards.

God is pro-life for those who are innocent. As long as the possibility exists that an innocent person will be killed for a crime they did not commit, how can you still be for capital punishment?

 

[THEOLDMAN]

Please refrain unless you have something substantive to contribute. BTW, it's ironic that you have just as much certitude for the anti-CP arguments that you accuse me of having for my arguments for CP. IOW, your whole "certitude" quip is circular and self-refuting.

Did I touch a nerve ?

 

[Mexdeaf]

To be anti-abortion but pro capital punishment is as contridictory as the other way around. If you are pro-life then be pro-life. Don't be pro-life in one area and pro-death in another. It is always interesting to me how many anti-abortion people love the babies, but hate people once they are adults and do not agree with them. Totally a contridiction.

All contradictions are not wrong.

No one is hating people just because they disagree with them. I do not hate people on death row. No Christian should. But with the exception of a few rare cases, most are guilty and deserve what they get. That is God's commandment.

 

[Andy T.]

I am against warfare. It's a horrible thing for all sides involved. Are you telling me that you are for warfare? Wouldn't you rather live in a world without it?

As for your question about taking out someone that is on a killing spree, it is an interesting point. I haven't given thought to the specific question, but I will. I will admit that my carnal nature immediately says that I would want to take that person out and stop the killing spree. Does our carnal nature always agree with God's nature? Certainly not.

No, it wouldn't be my carnal nature to take that killer out. It would be God's moral will that I do so. And of that, I have much "certitude" and make no qualms about it. And anyone else who had the means to do so and tries to use God as an excuse for not acting is a moral coward.

As for war, yes, there are many unjust and unnecessary wars, but there are times when it is not only necessary but also moral and good to make war, just like taking out the killing spree guy.

So are you saying that you would refuse to take part in any war that the U.S. may call you to? You are a complete 100% pacifist at all times whatsoever? You are willing to go to jail for this? I'm just trying to see how committed you are to your own consistency, which is not rooted in Biblical thinking, BTW.

 

[Andy T.]

Did I touch a nerve ?

Yes actually, you did - you touched the nerve connected to rational thought.

 

[THEOLDMAN]

Yes actually, you did - you touched the nerve connected to rational thought.

No, I touched your "certitude" nerve.

 

[Andy T.]

God is pro-life for those who are innocent. As long as the possibility exists that an innocent person will be killed for a crime they did not commit, how can you still be for capital punishment?

But there are times when there is no possibility that the person is innocent. It is in those times that CP should be administered.